Pagan Tongues VS God's Real Gift of Tongues

[Truther]

I defend the real God's gift of tongues against the pagan's tongues of gibberish nonsense that has been in use before Pentecost & still in use today.

You are the Judge of today's Holy Ghost outpouring?

Who put you in that position?

 

[GTW27]

The Lord in His infinite Wisdom, left an element of Faith to be had, for the believer who speaks in new tongues.For without Faith it is impossible to please God. I have found that even the demons flee(scatter) from this, and thus the proof of the power of praying in The Spirit. Now by this revelation, who is it that would want tongues to cease. Who is it that would start the war against this true spiritual gift.

 

[Enow]

So you are saying that Paul is lying when he says that he prays in tongues more than them all but not in the church? You seem to avoiding a direct answer to that question by quoting random verses out of context.

Actually, you are taking it out of context. Try to incorporate the verses you are pulling out of context with the message Paul is trying to convey to you.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

So you, the reader wants to know why the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts? Paul is answering that question by comparing the singular gift of tongues against the singular gift of prophesy to prove tongues is not a stand alone gift for believers to seek after.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Are there mysteries to God? No. Then why say that? Therefore it is mysteries unto men because no man understands him, BUT God does understand him. So speaking unto God is not about speaking TO God, but that God understands that tongue what man does not understand it. Now tongue speakers take this verse out of context of the message Paul is trying to make that prophesy is better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift. The fact tongue speakers are missing is if it was for private use, how would no man not understand it unless it was done in the presence of other people? Therefore you have to take verse 2 in context with the message of Paul trying to prove why the gift of prophesy is better in tongues in the assembly. Paul was not explaining tongues were for private use when he is comparing tongues against prophesy for why that gift believers should seek after. We read on in context of that message.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

That "But" means he has not changed topic about how cool tongues are all by itself. He is talking about tongues by itself when used in the assembly for why the gift of prophesy is the gift to seek after. He presses on to that same point for comparison of which gift to seek after.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

So that is Paul explaining why the gift of prophesy is better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift, because it must comes with interpretation. Paul goes on to explain why tongues is not the gift to seek after in that chapter, but prophesy is.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Now don't blink. Paul is still talking about that same tongue that needs to be interpret so that means it is not a prayer language.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

That means any believer that speaks in tongues, should pray that "he" may manifest interpretation thru another. Why? Paul says why.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

That means while he is speaking in tongues, Paul is praying that someone else will interpret because his understanding is unfruitful until it is interpreted.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

That verse 15 is Paul reproving any notion that tongues are for private use because it is unfruitful unless someone else interprets it for him to understand it.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Paul was still talking about that same tongue in verse 2 for needing interpretation. Now for the verse you are taking out of context.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

How would they know that unless Paul was referring to speaking in tongues in the assembly? He cannot bear witness of himself for that would be a false witness as per Jesus's own words in John 5:31 if no one saw him use tongues privately. And yet when done in public, 2 pr 3 witnesses is required to confirm that Paul spoke more than them all in comparison to all as required for an established testimony in 2 Corinthians 13:1 . So Paul is praying that someone else may interpret that tongue coming thru himself. He is not using tongues for prayer. So read verse 18 with 19.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

You can't take verse 18 as if Paul used tongues for prayer or privately when that would be a false witness if nobody saw him use tongues for prayer in private use. So Paul was not speaking about how cool tongues was al by itself but rather why believers should seek the gift of prophesy over tongues and all other gifts.

Now I have explained it step by step how you were taking verses out of context yourself and not me. I am reading verses you pulled out of context with the message Paul is conveying to believers why prophesy is the better gift to seek after and tongue was not a prayer language for Paul at all.

I once had a Mormon tell me that if I sought God He would show me the truth!

Because there is a supernatural tongue in the world before Pentecost is why believers should test the spirits and the tongues they bring so that they make sure they got the real God's gift of tongues and not the devil's tongues of gibberish nonsense. YOU cannot abstain from all appearances of evil if you say ALSO that God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people can be turned around and be used for prayer. That is the epitome of confusion which God is not the author of.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So lets set aside the facts and the demonstration from the Bible that to Pray in Tongues means to pray in a KNOWN Foreign Language for the sole purpose to be a sign to the unbeliever so they can understand the Gospel and believe it unto Salvation.

What ignorance of the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:21-23
In the law it is written:

“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

says the Lord.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

The SIGN to unbelievers is a negative sign, not a positive sign like preaching the gospel. That is why it should not be done around unbelievers because they will think you are crazy.

 

[Enow]

Having had at least 12 years as a member and on the leadership of a Pentecostal church, I think I have a pretty good idea of the way Pentecostals think - from the inside. It is one thing trying to understand Pentecostalism from the outside looking in, but quite another being an integral part of it over quite a number of years.

I am quite aware of the good, bad, and ugly sides of Pentecostalism. I left my last Pentecostal church because I became disillusioned with it because it did tend to play on one string, and because I subscribed to Puritan Calvinist teaching, I was sidelined by the mainly Arminians who did not agree with my theology. I also noticed that as time went on from the late 1960s when I first joined up, until 1978 when I left it, the foundations of the gospel of Christ were preached less and less.

I notice that in the mainstream Charismatic movement, especially in churches influenced by Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and Creflo Dollar, the basic gospel of Christ is never preached, and anyone who gets up to remind people that they need to have faith in Jesus who died on the cross for their sins and to repent, are actually picked up and thrown out of their services by the security guards. Once woman preacher told one such person that he had a demon because he tried to tell the people to have faith in the real Jesus of the Bible who died for them on the cross!

So, I didn't come down in the last shower about my view of the current Charismatic movement. I know that it has been seriously invaded by paganism and the occult, and I am not backward in coming forward to express my concerns about it.

So if you are speaking about the paganised and the occult influences in the Charismatic movement, you are preaching to the choir. But basic, sound Pentecostal theology is basically the Westminister Confession of Faith, plus the belief in the continuance of the gifts of the Spirit. The problem with much of the public (and Youtube) face of the Charismatic movement is that it appears to depart from those foundations and to adopt "new revelation" coming from the "voice of the Spirit" that is not found in the New Testament.

There's hope for you yet.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Keep discerning, brother, because you are still in that mentality to suffer a thief to break thru, especially since you have not discerned yet that God's gift of tongues would never be used for prayer, but that tongue speakers are to pray while speaking in tongues that someone else may interpret.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God's gift of tongues would never be used for prayer, but that tongue speakers are to pray while speaking in tongues that someone else may interpret.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

This tells us we can pray in tongues (the Spirit), or pray with the interpretation/understanding.

And we can praise/sing to God, or we can praise with the interpretation/understanding.

Again Paul shows there are two types of tongues. One for individual use without interpretation, and the other for corporate use WITH interpretation. This chapter is about individual tongues, and corporate tongues with interpretation. The "understanding" is not natural understanding, as this chapter is about the importance in church for interpretation using the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. Prophecy in this chapter is about the gift of interpretation that is from God and we receive revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching (vs. 6)

There is an understood gift of prophecy, word of wisdom and word of knowledge, but that is not the subject of that gift. Interpretation of tongues is equal to prophecy and tongues is the subject of this whole chapter.

Even though tongues with interpretation used in corporate worship, Paul is in conclusion not forbidding praying and praising God individually (without interpretation) in private, though he would have us even then pray for the interpretation. That is the meaning of 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

 

[Enow]

No, I got tongues on the same night I was born again and baptized with the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. That is why it is disturbing to realize that for a little over the first two decades of my life going to church from an infant, I was not saved. But knowing what I know now, I don't find it strange when I look at the two denominations I was in then - both Cessationist denominations who believed speaking in tongues was of the devil - believing blasphemy. During that whole time I never received one answer to prayer. Now, all my prayers are answered. Why? Because now I'm a child of God.

A problem with your testimony is that you led credence to feeling the Holy Spirit coming over you giving you tongues as evidence of salvation, even though you have been a "church goer" and a believer before since you kept going to church on your own eventually and not just because your parents brought you there.

A former neighbor across the street told me that she was sitting in her kitchen one day reading her Bible when she felt the Holy Spirit come over her, giving her tongues. She then proclaimed that was when she was saved because she got the Holy Spirit and tongues all at once. Then I had asked her what she was reading that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant, but suddenly she did and then went on to explain that she had went to her pastor and had asked him what had happened since she had been a believer all her life. And the pastor pointed to the Book of Acts which she did not say what chapter or what event in Acts to me, but I assume it was Acts 2 about the disciples waiting around doing everyday thing when they had received the promise from the Father at their salvation. I am not sure, but I am guessing the pastor referred to Pentecost event.

Anyway, she even went on to explain how others were testifying to having the same experience in doing other everyday stuff and although she did not give me any detail, she rolled her eyes as if to express disbelief regarding their supernatural experience.

The reason I am sharing this with you is my former neighbor has been a believer all this time and there wasn't anything significant about what she read in her Bible that she would lead credence to for believing in Jesus Christ for why that phenomenon would be Biblical. As this was not the case of her becoming a believer in Jesus Christ, I discerned that spirit was not of Him nor that tongue at all seeing how it would need to be interpreted for that to be fruitful to herself.

She took that moment to change her testimony from when she was saved as a believer to that moment when she felt a spirit coming over her giving her tongues as when she was saved.

It is no wonder why there are some believers out there preaching to saved believers that if they do not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and thus they are not saved yet. My former neighbor would have a hard time saying to believers that preach that when her own experience would be sued against her.

So when you testify that you had been a church goer, you cannot say that there wasn't a time you had not believed in Him as a child or even later on and just went about your living without regarding scripture that you were saved then until you had a supernatural phenomenon to say when you were "officially" saved.

So your testimony can be sued by those who preach that if a believer does not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and are not saved. It doesn't matter if you do not believe that and try as you might, you try to correct others of that, but your experience would support that teaching.

So.. I have to say you were saved when you had first believed in Him, even if you do not remember it because that phenomenon is not evidence of your salvation because 1 Corinthians 14:22 says tongues are to serve as a sign or proof towards the unbelievers; not for the believers for anything, and yet that is what you are doing when you give a testimony like that; for the defense of tongues for private use; thus coming across preaching a gospel of tongues to believers that do not speak in tongues and feel left out, doubting if they are really saved and it's just a slippery slope from there.

 

[CharismaticLady]

A problem with your testimony is that you led credence to feeling the Holy Spirit coming over you giving you tongues as evidence of salvation, even though you have been a "church goer" and a believer before since you kept going to church on your own eventually and not just because your parents brought you there.

Don't you know there are many going to church that are still slaves to sin? They have never been born again of the Spirit and if they never become filled with the Holy Spirit and experience the great power received, they will not be going to heaven.

 

[Enow]

Don't you know there are many going to church that are still slaves to sin? They have never been born again of the Spirit and if they never become filled with the Holy Spirit and experience the great power received, they will not be going to heaven.

So you fall in that camp as preaching that if a believer does not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and thus they are not saved.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

As the Lord Jesus Christ enables me thru the Holy Spirit in me, I will defend the gospel of Jesus Christ as believers will receive Him by faith in Jesus Christ alone and I will speak against your gospel of tongues as not of Him at all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you fall in that camp as preaching that if a believer does not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and thus they are not saved.

Not at all! Just the opposite. I do not believe speaking in tongues is the 'evidence' of being filled with the Spirit. A dramatic power over sin is the evidence, making us dead to sin, and not in the flesh but in the Spirit. The benefits of having the gifts are real but gravy.

The problem with Pentecostals teaching that is that those who won't speak in tongues due to the chains of unbelief binding them, doesn't mean they don't have the authority. Salvation is not based on a subjective choice about speaking in tongues, but about sin. What matters is they receive the power to overcome sin. Speaking in tongues is within our power to speak or not speak, but the benefits of doing so is why Paul wishes they all spoke in tongues. Not that they can't, but won't. In the church they are called the uninformed 1 Corinthians 14:23.

As the Lord Jesus Christ enables me thru the Holy Spirit in me, I will defend the gospel of Jesus Christ as believers will receive Him by faith in Jesus Christ alone and I will speak against your gospel of tongues as not of Him at all.

You haven't been listening.

 

[Enow]

Not at all! Just the opposite. I do not believe speaking in tongues is the 'evidence' of being filled with the Spirit. A dramatic power over sin is the evidence, making us dead to sin, and not in the flesh but in the Spirit. The benefits of having the gifts are real but gravy.

You had insinuated that believers living in sin are not saved for why they need to receive the Holy Spirit & power to overcome sin. So indirectly and in reference to your testimony as to when and how you were saved, you had come across as preaching that believers need to speak in tongues to know they have the Holy Spirit and thus are saved; just so they have power to overcome sin in their lives... as if they had no power before as believers.

So what happens when a believer goes through all of that and still find himself or herself back in that sin again? Keep going through that phenomenon over and over again? No.

I believe scripture would testify that they are saved but they need to go before that throne of grace to look to Jesus Christ for help to repent from their sins.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So carnal believers do not need a filling of the Spirit by a sign of tongues as if they do not have the Holy Spirit. They just need to go to Jesus in prayer.

The problem with Pentecostals teaching that is that those who won't speak in tongues due to the chains of unbelief binding them, doesn't mean they don't have the authority. Salvation is not based on a subjective choice about speaking in tongues, but about sin. What matters is they receive the power to overcome sin. Speaking in tongues is within our power to speak or not speak, but the benefits of doing so is why Paul wishes they all spoke in tongues. Not that they can't, but won't. In the church they are called the uninformed 1 Corinthians 14:23.

You haven't been listening.

Maybe you are the one not listening.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You had insinuated that believers living in sin are not saved for why they need to receive the Holy Spirit & power to overcome sin. So indirectly and in reference to your testimony as to when and how you were saved, you had come across as preaching that believers need to speak in tongues to know they have the Holy Spirit and thus are saved; just so they have power to overcome sin in their lives... as if they had no power before as believers.

Well, now you know that I said no such thing except in your mind.

So what happens when a believer goes through all of that and still find himself or herself back in that sin again? Keep going through that phenomenon over and over again? No.

Goes through all of what? What did they go through and still have no power over sin? Some make-believe formula that hasn't a chance of working?

I believe scripture would testify that they are saved but they need to go before that throne of grace to look to Jesus Christ for help to repent from their sins.

Yes, they still need to TRULY repent and filled with the Holy Spirit. IOW get on the road to salvation, instead of in the ditch.

 

[Enow]

Well, now you know that I said no such thing except in your mind.

You had posted in #128 "Don't you know there are many going to church that are still slaves to sin? They have never been born again of the Spirit and if they never become filled with the Holy Spirit and experience the great power received, they will not be going to heaven."

Goes through all of what? What did they go through and still have no power over sin? Some make-believe formula that hasn't a chance of working?

There are reports of believers repenting from sinful lifestyle from alcohol and drug addictions where one have said, "I don't get high on drugs any more, I get high on the Lord." They claim changed lives but when it stops coming in having that high by that phenomenon, they go back to drugs or alcohol.

If any one is caught living in unrepentant sin and they can't see it in their flesh to quit, they are to go to the Lord for that; not look to themselves to quit. He will help them lay aside every weight; provisions for the flesh, as well as the sin and they can rely on Him daily to lead them away from temptation and deliver them from the evil one in getting to know Him as the Good Shepherd He is and the power of His resurrection of Him working in their lives to not b a slave to sin any more.

Yes, they still need to TRULY repent and filled with the Holy Spirit. IOW get on the road to salvation, instead of in the ditch.

For those believers out there thinking you need a filling of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin; I testify if you had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead, you are saved and have the Holy Spirit in you by faith in Jesus Christ. You have power now. Just go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to help you in your hour of need, and He will help you.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Actually, you are taking it out of context. Try to incorporate the verses you are pulling out of context with the message Paul is trying to convey to you.

I'm continuing my discussion with you on this, because I think you are sincere in what you believe, and you are remaining respectful, while giving me a run for my money!

I don't know how long you have been a Christian, but if you have been a believer, receiving Bible teaching from your pastor and mentors over a long period, and that teaching has been that early church tongues were limited to tongues and interpretation in church services. And your mentors were highly respected by you as true men of God, then I can understand that you are totally unwilling to accept anything else.

It is the same with me. I was discipled by an elderly, mature Pentecostal pastor whose background was Methodist Holiness, whom I respected to such a degree that a fellow believer told me that I had an intellectual bondage to that pastor's teaching and would not consider anything else. It is the same when I studied Puritan Calvinist teaching over many years, and so am totally committed to it to the point where I will argue night and day with anyone who tries to refute it.

So, I think that the foundational Bible teaching that we receive in our spiritual formative years becomes so much a part of our essential faith that to consider anything else would be a denial of what we believe Christ Himself, though our respected mentors have taught us. It is almost a denial of Christ to change our basic theology.

I found, after viewing Dave Hunt and John MacArthur's teaching on the Charismatic movement where they exposed the invasion of pagan mind control and the occult into its mainstream, my Pentecostal views got turned on their head. I had to go back to the Bible to check all this out, and found that many things I had done and supported were not found in the New Testament! Having to amend my views has been a very difficult process and I have had to give serious thought in separating the wheat from the chaff.

So, I went prayerfully to 1 Corinthians 14 and studied it verse by verse, even word by word, as well as reading several commentaries and the writing of the earliest church fathers. Because Calvin is someone that I totally believe to be correct about most things, I found that he said that tongues declined because of misuse and not through some decree of God. I also discovered that tongues and prophecy remained right through to the 12 Century in the Eastern Orthdodox church. Along with that, I read many testimonies of modern believers speaking in tongues languages they had never learned but foreign visitors understanding what was being spoken and testified that they were speaking the mighty works of God and praising Him.

So, the certainty of Scripture, the early church fathers, the weight of church historical evidence, and the sheer number of testimonies through the 20th century concerning the validity and truth of the gift of tongues, convinced me that in the midst of much misuse of it in the current Charismatic movement, there is the true gift and when it is spoken in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14, it certainly is of the Spirit and not of the flesh or the devil.

Also, in my comparative study of Mormon, pagan, with genuine tongues, I found there is a vast difference. Mormon and pagan tongues are very ritualised and spoken as part of ceremonial incantations and sound more like the church Latin that used to be quoted in the early Catholic Mass (note this is not a comparison between spoken church Latin and pagan incantation!). But true tongues are spoken as personal prayer and worship to God and spoken in an attitude of love, joy, gentleness and self-control.

I have seen Hollywood movie pagan rituals where their version of tongues were spoken, and they were nothing like the type of tongues that I heard in the Pentecostal church. There is a vast difference which any Pentecostal would pick up right away. Pagan and Mormon tongues are never interpreted, and if they were, they would never point to having stronger faith in Christ, which true Pentecostal interpretations do.

So I have made an exhaustive study over at least the last 40 years to come to the conclusions I have come to, which I think are more reliable than anyone who has visited a Pentecostal church a couple of times and based their opinion on that.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You had posted in #128 "Don't you know there are many going to church that are still slaves to sin? They have never been born again of the Spirit and if they never become filled with the Holy Spirit and experience the great power received, they will not be going to heaven."

I know this is true because Jesus said so. Notice these are calling Jesus, Lord.

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There are reports of believers repenting from sinful lifestyle from alcohol and drug addictions where one have said, "I don't get high on drugs any more, I get high on the Lord." They claim changed lives but when it stops coming in having that high by that phenomenon, they go back to drugs or alcohol.

Obviously not a true conversion. There is a big difference between will-power and Spirit-power.

If any one is caught living in unrepentant sin and they can't see it in their flesh to quit, they are to go to the Lord for that; not look to themselves to quit. He will help them lay aside every weight; provisions for the flesh, as well as the sin and they can rely on Him daily to lead them away from temptation and deliver them from the evil one in getting to know Him as the Good Shepherd He is and the power of His resurrection of Him working in their lives to not b a slave to sin any more.

I totally agree. That is being born again of the Spirit. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. It is all God, not self.

 

[CharismaticLady]

For those believers out there thinking you need a filling of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin; I testify if you had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead, you are saved and have the Holy Spirit in you by faith in Jesus Christ. You have power now. Just go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to help you in your hour of need, and He will help you.

This is like the guy who went back to their weakness because they had no actual strength from the Holy Spirit in them. They just had faith they did. Believe me you don't have to have faith as in the substance of things hoped for, or the evidence of things not seen to know you have the Holy Spirit. You will KNOW IT BY A REAL EXPERIENCE, not in anything not experienced, but just believe what you are told. It is entirely different than having faith in the creation, or the flood, or Jesus was raised from the dead or heaven. You can feel the Holy Spirit, and the gifts are tangible also.

 

[Paul Christensen]

There's hope for you yet.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Keep discerning, brother, because you are still in that mentality to suffer a thief to break thru, especially since you have not discerned yet that God's gift of tongues would never be used for prayer, but that tongue speakers are to pray while speaking in tongues that someone else may interpret.

I think it all comes down to that I read 1 Corinthians 14 differently than how you read it.

I am not a motor mechanic, so I don't have or use those tools. If my car develops a problem, I will take it to a qualified mechanic.

But I am a writer, having learned to touch-type (that why I can write long posts here without any effort), and can type as fast as I think.

When I wanted to learn the banjo, I couldn't afford to buy one, so I learned woodworking, bought the tools, and made one out of a tambourine and a length of oak, learning how to angle the peg head from the neck, shaping the neck, gluing the fret board and inserting the frets, resulting in a very playable instrument. I recently lost one of my front teeth, so I am now a genuine hillbilly banjo player! :-)

This is how I view tongues. It is a tool to either enhance personal prayer or for ministry to others (along with interpretation of course!). Not everyone is an intercessor, nor has that type of prophetic ministry in church, so they might not have a need to use that particular tool.

I am not a healing evangelist, so I don't need the tool that enables sick people to be healed as part of the preaching of the gospel. So, I don't have it.

But, I am able to lead a church and give Bible teaching, so I have the worship, public speaking and Bible teaching tools to do that well, which I did successfully in my Presbyterian church over the last 23 years.

So, we are given various abilities by the Holy Spirit as part of His tools of trade, according to the particular type of service or ministry the Holy Spirit has for us.

Just because I use the gift of tongues in a certain way as the Holy Spirit wills for me to, doesn't mean that everyone else has to use the same "tool" for what they do, in the same way that I don't have the tools that a motor mechanic uses because I am not a motor mechanic.

But given that I am not a motor mechanic and don't use the tools for it, I would be wrong to go around teaching that one has to use specific tools for it and that other associated tools are not appropriate. It would be saying that one should fix a car using a set of crescent wrenches, but not being able to use the socket set.

So, just because the use of the gift of tongues is not for you, because you are not active in the area of service or ministry where it is available to you, doesn't mean that you can tell people or give general teaching that no one can use it under any circumstances. When I was doing my school teacher training, our professional studies lecturer taught us to "de-objectivize" our own ideals. In other words, not to push our own ideals on to the students we will be teaching. But it is significant that many church members never get that message, and go around teaching their own opinions as objective essential truth. It is this attitude that caused dissenters being burned at the stake, tortured, hanged, and excommunicated during periods of church history.

I teach the use of tongues as a tool for prayer and ministry. It is "a" tool, not "the" tool. If you don't need that tool, then you don't have to use it, but you would be going right against Paul's express instructions, "Do not forbid to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:39).

I think, with all due respect, that is what you are doing here. You are giving express teaching to forbid the speaking in tongues because you believe it to be false in current use by Pentecostals.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You had posted in #128 "Don't you know there are many going to church that are still slaves to sin? They have never been born again of the Spirit and if they never become filled with the Holy Spirit and experience the great power received, they will not be going to heaven."



There are reports of believers repenting from sinful lifestyle from alcohol and drug addictions where one have said, "I don't get high on drugs any more, I get high on the Lord." They claim changed lives but when it stops coming in having that high by that phenomenon, they go back to drugs or alcohol.

If any one is caught living in unrepentant sin and they can't see it in their flesh to quit, they are to go to the Lord for that; not look to themselves to quit. He will help them lay aside every weight; provisions for the flesh, as well as the sin and they can rely on Him daily to lead them away from temptation and deliver them from the evil one in getting to know Him as the Good Shepherd He is and the power of His resurrection of Him working in their lives to not b a slave to sin any more.



For those believers out there thinking you need a filling of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin; I testify if you had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead, you are saved and have the Holy Spirit in you by faith in Jesus Christ. You have power now. Just go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to help you in your hour of need, and He will help you.

We are all sinners, and will never be anything else while we are in our mortal bodies. It is by God's grace that we are saved, and it is not of ourselves. Nothing that we can say or do can contribute to that, because if we tried to earn it by trying to be sinless, we would be insulting the Lord by trying to pay for the gift He has given us.

So, salvation and sanctification is not about us, or our self-improvement at all. The Lord had to remind me one day when I was a spiritual "yuppie" (def: "Upwardly rising young pillock") that all I need and ever needed was that Jesus died for me on the cross of Calvary. I learned that outside of Christ, there is nothing that God would like or would make me acceptable to Him. I would be just a vile sinner deserving nothing but hell. So, I could improve myself "spiritually" as much as I could and I will still be detestable to God outside of Christ. So, if I thought that I was getting somewhere in sanctification through my own efforts, all that would result is that I would be puffed up with pride and self-righteousness thinking that I would be someone that God would think special.

Any good that I have ever done in my 53 years of Christian life is what Jesus, through the Holy Spirit has done through me when I have been available to Him. The Scripture says that we have the treasure in earthen vessels. Earthen vessels were used in ancient times were used as toilet pots to contain human excrement, in the same way that before indoor plumbing, outside toilets used to have metal pans in them that were emptied into the night-cart to be taken away. This is the allusion to describe who we are in ourselves, and it shows the amazing grace of God that the Holy Spirit would allow Himself to dwell in us, such as we are.

So, all the human excrement can be cleaned out of the pot until it is squeaky clean and the pot could say, I am totally clean now. I have achieved total victory! But the pot does not cease being what it is. It is the same with those ones who spout that they have achieved total victory over sin. Well, whoopty doo! They are still the earthen vessel designed to hold more of the brown stuff and so, still a vessel of dishonour, inhabiting a sinful, mortal body, doomed to die. How do we know we are still sinful? We all have to die, because the Scripture says, "The wages of sin is death" and "The person who sins will die". This means physical death.

In fact, we all have the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead. We will not be absolutely sinless until we are raised in our immortal, glorified, perfect body.

 

[Enow]

This is like the guy who went back to their weakness because they had no actual strength from the Holy Spirit in them. They just had faith they did. Believe me you don't have to have faith as in the substance of things hoped for, or the evidence of things not seen to know you have the Holy Spirit. You will KNOW IT BY A REAL EXPERIENCE, not in anything not experienced, but just believe what you are told. It is entirely different than having faith in the creation, or the flood, or Jesus was raised from the dead or heaven. You can feel the Holy Spirit, and the gifts are tangible also.

The problem here is that you point professing believers to seek to experience a phenomenon to help them overcome sin in their lives and yet scripture doesn't paint that as a solution for any believer when dealing with sins.

For those who are in doubt about having the Holy Spirit in you since you had believed, we are called to live that reconcile relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. That means you are to rely on Him all the time as your Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him and abide in His words in the KJV.

It is one thing to preach the gospel to the lost, but to say to those who already believe in Him that the way to deal with sin in their lives is to doubt they ever had the Holy Spirit and to seek to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign rather than by faith in Jesus Christ which was already done at the calling of the gospel when they had first believed.

This message is to all the believers having trouble with sin in living their lives in America and in any other carnal run media parts of the world:

If you have been sowing to the works of the flesh since you had been saved, it is no wonder that you are having trouble with sin in your life. You need to ask Him for help to lay aside all the provisions for the flesh out of your life, to cut out all the things that feeds lust or the sin that you are having trouble with. He will help you. He will even help you cast down wicked thoughts and put your mind on good things. So submit to God and resist the devil, and the devil will flee from you.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

To my sister that I am replying to; not once do these scripture above imply that just because a believer is having trouble with sin, that they are to seek a phenomenon by a gift of tongue just to get assurance that they can overcome sin, because they should be going to Jesus Christ for help with that.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The problem here is that you point professing believers to seek to experience a phenomenon to help them overcome sin in their lives and yet scripture doesn't paint that as a solution for any believer when dealing with sins.

For those who are in doubt about having the Holy Spirit in you since you had believed, we are called to live that reconcile relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. That means you are to rely on Him all the time as your Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him and abide in His words in the KJV.

It is one thing to preach the gospel to the lost, but to say to those who already believe in Him that the way to deal with sin in their lives is to doubt they ever had the Holy Spirit and to seek to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign rather than by faith in Jesus Christ which was already done at the calling of the gospel when they had first believed.

This message is to all the believers having trouble with sin in living their lives in America and in any other carnal run media parts of the world:

If you have been sowing to the works of the flesh since you had been saved, it is no wonder that you are having trouble with sin in your life. You need to ask Him for help to lay aside all the provisions for the flesh out of your life, to cut out all the things that feeds lust or the sin that you are having trouble with. He will help you. He will even help you cast down wicked thoughts and put your mind on good things. So submit to God and resist the devil, and the devil will flee from you.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

To my sister that I am replying to; not once do these scripture above imply that just because a believer is having trouble with sin, that they are to seek a phenomenon by a gift of tongue just to get assurance that they can overcome sin, because they should be going to Jesus Christ for help with that.

I have never said that the Baptism with the Spirit and the gifts are for developing sanctification in a believer. It is power for service, and not for overcoming personal sin. The point I am making is that we will never overcome personal sin until we die and are resurrected to glory.

Every person who is converted is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. That includes you and me regardless of our view concerning tongues and other spiritual gifts. It is the general indwelling of the Holy Spirit who works within us to develop our sanctification, not the enduement of power that the Baptism with the Spirit gives. For Christ's workmanship to conform us to the image of Him, it is the same Spirit who works in you and me to achieve that.

I know that there are Pentecostals who believe and teach that speaking in tongues assists the person to grow in grace more effectively than someone who doesn't. I am not one of them. I use the allusion to the motor mechanic. He has to study and be apprenticed to become qualified. Using his socket set does not contribute to that qualification, nor does it help him to develop expertise and experience. He has to have that first before he can use the tools effectively to do his job. We don't allow a untrained pilot to fly a commercial 747 airplane. Just being able to read a map or know his instruments don't make him a trained and qualified pilot.

In the same way, a person has to be a converted believer before he can use the gift of tongues, but just being able to pray or speak in tongues doesn't make him a better Christian. Growing in grace, maintaining faith in Christ, and depending on the Holy Spirit within him does that.