Our Hope for the Future

[Douggg]

The ancient Israelites failed to keep the Law.
They were scatted around the world and are now identified as the Western Christian peoples. This is verifiable fact.

Keraz, it is the Jews who were taken captive into the nations for rejecting Jesus.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

You have that totally wrong! It is the Jews who do not want a Temple.

No church group is planning on building another temple. The Jews, differently, see the temple as central to their religion of Judaism. There groups in Israel, such as, the Temple Mount Faithful, and the Temple Institute, dedicated for the rebuilding of the temple.

 

[Jay Ross]

'Destroy this Temple and I will raise it in three days'.....Jesus
Have you missed the message and its implications Keraz?

Jesus' words here are still a distant future event. Jesus was indicating that He would rebuild the temple after the Final judgement's completion.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

This is how Ezekiel 39:25-29 reads for me: -

Ezekiel 39:25-29: - 25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name — 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own fertile field and no one makes them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' countries, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their fertile field, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord God."

God is not making any reference as to where the fertile field is. The fertile field is the same field that righteous Christians take root in and the fertile field can be found right around the earth where we live.

How I read the Ezekiel 39:25-29 passage does not make any reference to any land at all but only to God's prepared fertile field(s).

Shalom

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, it is the Jews who were taken captive into the nations for rejecting Jesus.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Yes, Luke 21:24 does refer to the House of Judah, Jewish captivity after the Roman conquest; 70 to 135 AD
But the House of Israel, taken to Assyria in 722 BC, was scattered among the nations then and still is now.
You fail to address Ezekiel 4:4-6, which plainly states a different term of captivity foe each House.

No church group is planning on building another temple. The Jews, differently, see the temple as central to their religion of Judaism. There groups in Israel, such as, the Temple Mount Faithful, and the Temple Institute, dedicated for the rebuilding of the temple.

Who is Ezekiel 43:10 Prophesying to?
It cannot be just the few Jews, the remnant left after the Lords Day of Judgment and punishment. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus' words here are still a distant future event. Jesus was indicating that He would rebuild the temple after the Final judgement's completion.

Doesn't the context tell us he was speaking of himself?....John 2:19 The Jews of course misunderstood him as they did with most of what he articulated.
Wasn't the whole Temple arrangement and practices a symbol of himself prefiguring his various roles as both the slaughtered lamb as well as the high priest.....as well as the light of the world (candlesticks).....and the bread of life (shewbread)

There is more. This is sufficient for this post.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, Luke 21:24 does refer to the House of Judah, Jewish captivity after the Roman conquest; 70 to 135 AD
But the House of Israel, taken to Assyria in 722 BC, was scattered among the nations then and still is now.
You fail to address Ezekiel 4:4-6, which plainly states a different term of captivity foe each House.

Keraz, the rejoining of the two nations back into one nation as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled on May 14, 1948.

The land mass of modern day Israel covers the land masses of the two former nations.

In Ezekiel 39:4, Gog's armies will be destroyed upon the mountains of Israel, not Beulah.

 

[Douggg]

This is how Ezekiel 39:25-29 reads for me: -

Ezekiel 39:25-29: - 25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name — 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own fertile field and no one makes them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' countries, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their fertile field, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord God."

God is not making any reference as to where the fertile field is. The fertile field is the same field that righteous Christians take root in and the fertile field can be found right around the earth where we live.

How I read the Ezekiel 39:25-29 passage does not make any reference to and land at all but only to God's prepared fertile field.

Shalom

Jay, is the word "Israel" found anywhere in Ezekiel 39 in the bible translations you are using?

Geographically, where will Gog's army be destroyed ? In Ezekiel 39:4.

 

[Jay Ross]

Doesn't the context tell us he was speaking of himself?....John 2:19 The Jews of course misunderstood him as they did with most of what he articulated.
Wasn't the whole Temple arrangement and practices a symbol of himself prefiguring his various roles as both the slaughtered lamb as well as the high priest.....as well as the light of the world (candlesticks).....and the bread of life (shewbread)

There is more. This is sufficient for this post.

QT No He was speaking of the temple that would be assembled after the final judgement when all of the saints assemble together with Christ to worship God.

John 2: - 19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

The confirmation sign that Jesus gave that He would rebuild the temple was that the Temple officials would cause the temple to be destroyed, which occurred in 70 AD.

The time Christ gave for Him to rebuild the temple was for three days of the Lord, i.e. a little over 3,000 years, when Christ will sound the alarm for all of the Saints to assemble as the Living Temple with Christ to worship God.

Shalom

 

[Johann]

Regards refutation, It is the risen Jesus who gives a perspective that refutes the OT assumptions.
'you have heard said.....but I say unto you.....' Jesus. There is the refutation of OT Hebrew assumptions!

Only problem @Keraz is not a pharisee.

J.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, is the word "Israel" found anywhere in Ezekiel 39 in the bible translations you are using?

Yes Dougggg, the word "Israel" is found 12 times in Ezekile 39. Below is Ezekiel 39 witht the word "Israel" highlighted for your benefit to find all 12 occurrences of the word "Israel."

Ezekiel 39:1-29: - 39:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; 2 and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountain / religion of Israel. 3 Then I will knock the bow out of your left hand and cause the arrows to fall out of your right hand. 4 You shall fall upon the mountain / religion of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken," says the Lord God. 6 "And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the Lord. 7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord God. "This is the day of which I have spoken.​

​

9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them," says the Lord God.​

​

11 "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travellers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore, they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the earth. 13 Indeed all the people of the earth will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord God. 14 "They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass across the face of the earth and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15 The search party will pass across the face of the earth; and when anyone sees a man's bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus, they shall cleanse the earth."'​

​

17 "And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord God, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field:​

"Assemble yourselves and come;​

Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal​

Which I am sacrificing for you,​

A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel,​

That you may eat flesh and drink blood. ​

18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty,​

Drink the blood of the princes of the earth,​

Of rams and lambs,​

Of goats and bulls,​

All of them fatlings of Bashan. ​

19 You shall eat fat till you are full,​

And drink blood till you are drunk,​

At My sacrificial meal​

Which I am sacrificing for you. ​

20 You shall be filled at My table​

With horses and riders,​

With mighty men​

And with all the men of war," says the Lord God.​

​

21 "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them and hidden My face from them."'​

​

25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name — 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own fertile field and no one makes them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' countries, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their fertile field, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord God."​

Geographically, where will Gog's army be destroyed ? In Ezekiel 39:4.

Metaphorically, Gog's army will be destroyed by the truth of the religion of Israel, wherever Gog's army will be found.

 

[Douggg]

Yes Dougggg, the word "Israel" is found 12 times in Ezekile 39. Below is Ezekiel 39 witht the word "Israel" highlighted for your benefit to find all 12 occurrences of the word "Israel."

Ezekiel 39:1-29: - 39:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; 2 and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountain / religion of Israel. 3 Then I will knock the bow out of your left hand and cause the arrows to fall out of your right hand. 4 You shall fall upon the mountain / religion of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken," says the Lord God. 6 "And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the Lord. 7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord God. "This is the day of which I have spoken.​

​

9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them," says the Lord God.​

​

11 "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travellers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore, they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the earth. 13 Indeed all the people of the earth will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord God. 14 "They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass across the face of the earth and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15 The search party will pass across the face of the earth; and when anyone sees a man's bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus, they shall cleanse the earth."'​

​

17 "And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord God, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field:​

"Assemble yourselves and come;​

Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal​

Which I am sacrificing for you,​

A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel,​

That you may eat flesh and drink blood. ​

18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty,​

Drink the blood of the princes of the earth,​

Of rams and lambs,​

Of goats and bulls,​

All of them fatlings of Bashan. ​

19 You shall eat fat till you are full,​

And drink blood till you are drunk,​

At My sacrificial meal​

Which I am sacrificing for you. ​

20 You shall be filled at My table​

With horses and riders,​

With mighty men​

And with all the men of war," says the Lord God.​

​

21 "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them and hidden My face from them."'​

​

25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name — 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own fertile field and no one makes them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' countries, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their fertile field, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord God."​

Metaphorically, Gog's army will be destroyed by the truth of the religion of Israel, wherever Gog's army will be found.

Hi Jay, thanks for providing Ezekiel 39 from the translation of the bible you are using.

I don't think Gog's army will be metaphorically destroyed, but physically destroyed on the mountains of Israel and it open areas. And that Gog's army comes from a geographical direction - from the far north in verse 2.

There will be 7 years that follow the destruction of Gog's army, verse 9.

And then after those 7 years, in verses 17-20 is a feast by the birds and beasts of the field. Verses 17-20 is very similar to Revelation 19:17-18, to take place at Jesus's Second Coming.

In verses 21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking, having returned to this earth. In those verses, Jesus reflects back on why the Jews were taken captive into the nations - verses 23-24.

But, since they bore their shame of having rejected Him, He will bring the house of Israel back from captivity into the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 39 the Gog/Magog event has nothing to do with attacking a newly created Christian nation of Beulah that Keraz is projecting in his interpretations of scripture.

Also the title of the thread - "Our Hope for the Future" is not to live in the land of Israel as Keraz suggests, but the redemption of our bodies into everlasting, eternal bodies as Paul described.

As the song says...

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name

On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

 

[quietthinker]

QT No He was speaking of the temple that would be assembled after the final judgement when all of the saints assemble together with Christ to worship God.

John 2: - 19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

The confirmation sign that Jesus gave that He would rebuild the temple was that the Temple officials would cause the temple to be destroyed, which occurred in 70 AD.

The time Christ gave for Him to rebuild the temple was for three days of the Lord, i.e. a little over 3,000 years, when Christ will sound the alarm for all of the Saints to assemble as the Living Temple with Christ to worship God.

Shalom

I'm sorry Jay, I do not find that explanation plausible. I find your view sets a precedent to put a spin on any of Jesus' words....particularly parables.
Jesus here is speaking directly to those who misunderstood the symbolism the Temple itself was ie, a metaphor of himself.,

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, the rejoining of the two nations back into one nation as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled on May 14, 1948.

The land mass of modern day Israel covers the land masses of the two former nations.

In Ezekiel 39:4, Gog's armies will be destroyed upon the mountains of Israel, not Beulah.

1/ ALL the new inhabitants of the new Jewish State of Israel, were Jews. A few from the other tribes have since joined them, as they did in ancient times as well.
2/ the land area of Israel today is much less than what it was in Solomons time and way short of the area given to Abraham and his descendants. Genesis 15:18
3/ The mountains of Israel, the high ground, running roughly North/ South, remain as named. The new nation which will occupy allof the holy Land will be called; Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Why must you deny these things?

 

[quietthinker]

Only problem @Keraz is not a pharisee.

J.

Why is that a problem? Anyone who pulls the OT card in preference to Jesus' explanation or statements misses the point.
Why? because Jesus is the only eyewitness of God. He is the faithful witness of God's intentions and purposes. The Prophets saw through a glass darkly so to speak. Hebrews 1 makes this point unequivocally.

 

[quietthinker]

1/ ALL the new inhabitants of the new Jewish State of Israel, were Jews. A few from the other tribes have since joined them, as they did in ancient times as well.
2/ the land area of Israel today is much less than what it was in Solomons time and way short of the area given to Abraham and his descendants. Genesis 15:18
3/ The mountains of Israel, the high ground, running roughly North/ South, remain as named. The new nation which will occupy allof the holy Land will be called; Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Why must you deny these things?

Are you familiar with the meaning of Beulah, Keraz?

 

[Keraz]

Are you familiar with the meaning of Beulah, Keraz?

Yes, as Beulah is explained in Isaiah 62:4-5 A Land with people who God will rejoice over.

 

[Jay Ross]

I'm sorry Jay, I do not find that explanation plausible. I find your view sets a precedent to put a spin on any of Jesus' words....particularly parables.
Jesus here is speaking directly to those who misunderstood the symbolism the Temple itself was ie, a metaphor of himself.,

That is okay QT. Many denominations hold to the view that you have presented, however John's embedded commentary is silent on what John was referring to when he wrote the following.

John 2:21-22: - 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this {to them}; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.​

Was Jesus speaking plainly and referring to His actual "body" or was Jesus referring to the temple of his body of believers. John does not clarify this. All that John states is that after the resurrection, they remembered this and they believed the scriptures and His words but provides no other indication as to what it was that the disciples believed concerning the scriptures and what He had taught them.

I have found that it is difficult to unlearn what I have come to believe either.

As far as putting a spin on any of the words Jesus spoke, the commentaries are full of the spin of the commentators and many "believers" have accepted the commentators' spin.

Shalom

 

[face2face]

Because Jesus will reveal Himself to the faithful Christian peoples. 1 Thess 1:19, Revelation 14:1
As it is now, He is hidden from us, but we believe in Him despite there being no visible proof of His existence.

The Jews are NOT the House of Israel, they are the House of Judah. This is fundamental for understanding the Prophetic Word, and shows why your beliefs and charts are wrong.

It's clear from your remarks the hidden things of Yahweh are kept from you. There is little point in sharing His secrets if you havnt the humilty to receive them.

F2F

 

[Johann]

That is okay QT. Many denominations hold to the view that you have presented, however John's embedded commentary is silent on what John was referring to when he wrote the following.

John 2:21-22: - 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this {to them}; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.​

Was Jesus speaking plainly and referring to His actual "body" or was Jesus referring to the temple of his body of believers. John does not clarify this. All that John states is that after the resurrection, they remembered this and they believed the scriptures and His words but provides no other indication as to what it was that the disciples believed concerning the scriptures and what He had taught them.

I have found that it is difficult to unlearn what I have come to believe either.

As far as putting a spin on any of the words Jesus spoke, the commentaries are full of the spin of the commentators and many "believers" have accepted the commentators' spin.

Shalom

But he spake of the temple of his body (ekeinos de elegen peri tou naou tou sōmatos autou). Emphatic he (ekeinos) and imperfect tense (he had been speaking). This is John’s view as he looks back at it, not what he understood when Jesus spoke the words.


But he spake of the temple of his body -- (ekeinos de elegen peri tou naou tou so¯matos autou). Emphatic he (ekeinos) and imperfect tense (he had been speaking). RWP.

His body ... which was the sanctuary in which all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt. Just as these Jews had defiled the temple in Jerusalem, so they would put Him to death in a few short years. BBC

The temple -- The Jews understood the Temple as the dwelling place of God, but the real Temple or dwelling place of God, at this time, was the body of Jesus.

J.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Re: Our Hope for the Future

● 1Pet 3:15b . . Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks
you a reason of the hope that is in you.

The only requirement there is to always be ready; we are not required to
always give an answer. In point of fact Christ limits our responses to sincere
folks rather than every John Doe and Jane Que that happens along.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you
do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to
pieces." (Matt 7:6)

Anyway: the Greek word for "hope" in that passage basically pertains to
expectation; viz: it isn't wishful thinking, nor crossing your fingers; no, this
kind of hope is a confident looking forward to taking possession of
something that's already in the bag, viz: it's an anticipating hope, i.e. it
doesn't pray for the best, while in the back of its mind dreading the worst.

When people are uncertain what the future has in store for them-- if there is
even the slightest anxiety or unease --then of course they can't possibly
comply with Peter's instructions for the simple reason that the hope that is in
them, if any, is the wrong kind of hope.

● Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

People have absolutely no cause for rejoicing when they're unsure of their
afterlife destination, no, but they do have plenty of cause to fear the
unknown.
_