Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

[St. SteVen]

What you failed to realize is the truth of the mater.

Not a perpetual virgin?

[

 

[Johann]

I don't believe in the god you have created.
A god that would burn people in hell for eternity with no hope of escape. That's what your Bible tells you, right?

Why is it that when it says Everlasting in the KJV it cannot mean everlasting?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV), which highlights God's patience and desire for repentance: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This verse underscores that God's desire is not for anyone to face eternal punishment but for all to turn to Him.

The Bible does speak about hell and eternal punishment in passages such as Matthew 25:46 (KJV): "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Here, Jesus Himself speaks of the final judgment and the two destinies of humanity. However, it's crucial to understand that this punishment is the result of a deliberate choice to reject God's grace and love.

God's justice and holiness require a response to sin. Romans 6:23 (KJV) states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Sin, which is rebellion against God, brings about death, but God offers the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

It's also essential to remember the depth of God's love, as shown in John 3:16 (KJV): "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse highlights the sacrificial love of God, who provided a way for us to escape eternal punishment through faith in Jesus Christ.

The concept of hell as eternal separation from God is difficult, but it is not something God desires for anyone. Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV) expresses God's heart: "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God’s desire is for people to repent and live.

Ultimately, the Bible presents a choice between life and death, blessing and curse (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV): "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." This choice is a profound aspect of human freedom and responsibility.

In summary, while the Bible does speak of eternal punishment for those who reject God's grace, it also emphasizes His great love, mercy, and desire for all to come to repentance. The message of the Gospel is one of hope and salvation, offering eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

everlasting. Gr. aionios, +Mat_18:8, Some go to great length to argue that the punishment threatened here by our Lord Jesus Christ is not truly everlasting or never-ending. Those who argue this way do so in an effort to bolster their mistaken notion of justice and their mistaken view of the character of God (+**Gen_18:25 note). Some quibble over the meaning of “eternal,” arguing from the fact that the word in Scripture is sometimes used in a finite sense (+Psa_24:9 note), and sometimes used in an infinite sense (Joh_6:54 note). From this fact they justify asserting a limited sense to the duration of everlasting punishment. The answer to this objection is simple. Jesus spoke of two ages, this age, and the age to come. In the King James Version these terms are translated “this world” and “the world to come” in Mat_12:32. When the word “eternal” is applied to things restricted to this age it is used in a finite or limited sense. When “eternal” has reference to things in “the age to come,” it is used in an infinite sense. Clearly God is eternal and will continue to exist in the age to come. Just as eternal life and eternal punishment pertain to and exist in the age to come, so “eternal” in reference to them is used in the infinite, never-ending sense. +*Mat_18:8, Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7, **Isa_33:14; Isa_38:18, +*Dan_12:2, *Mar_3:29, 2Th_1:9, Heb_6:2, *Rev_14:11.

 

[Rockerduck]

Constant? Do you mean in constant decline?


Tell us what you think happened. Thanks.

[

Ministries develop papers, folders, mailers, and teaching materials, etc.. If based on the KJB, everything remains the same. The NIV 84 was around for 20 yrs., and colleges, ministries, Awana clubs, etc., used the NIV 84, then NIV stopped publication of it, and took it off the shelves. All the churches, and colleges had to change to another bible. All lessons, software, and books all had to be trashed.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ministries develop papers, folders, mailers, and teaching materials, etc.. If based on the KJB, everything remains the same. The NIV 84 was around for 20 yrs., and colleges, ministries, Awana clubs, etc., used the NIV 84, then NIV stopped publication of it, and took it off the shelves. All the churches, and colleges had to change to another bible. All lessons, software, and books all had to be trashed.

That's a good point, but seems a bit extreme. Did the NIV Bible change that much?
Sticking with the KJV means continuing to embrace archaic language. What good is Bible study if you can't understand what it says?

[

 

[Rockerduck]

That's a good point, but seems a bit extreme. Did the NIV Bible change that much?
Sticking with the KJV means continuing to embrace archaic language. What good is Bible study if you can't understand what it says?

[

Yes the NIV 84 is different from the New NIV. I went the Liberty U. in the early 80's and it was KJB only. I still have some schoolbooks. All the course work matches the KJB. Liberty U changed to the NIV 84 later. They, like others, are using another bible. Most changed to the NKJB and CSB. Some larger denominations created their own bible version. Once bitten twice shy.

 

[Rockerduck]

That's a good point, but seems a bit extreme. Did the NIV Bible change that much?
Sticking with the KJV means continuing to embrace archaic language. What good is Bible study if you can't understand what it says?

[

What if you were in medical school. The same applies when studying the bible. That KJB language was taught that way for over 300 years.

 

[Rockerduck]

The KJV reads like scriptures set to poetry and sounds great when read in public…like ceremonies. And some of the family and table top editions are beautifully illustrated. But as far as serious study of the scriptures, that is not the Bible to use.

So, what is the bible to use? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, what is the bible to use? Inquiring minds want to know.

The best Bible?….is no Bible at all.

It is best to have a working knowledge of the biblical languages and history. That will take you about a year of schooling. To read and write them that will take 3 to 4 years.

No matter what translation you pick you still need to be familiar with Lexicons and the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance but keep in mind it is linked to the KJV and inherits its errors.

Which is the best Bible?
It depends on who is using it and what they using it for.

After years of hobnobbing with Theologians I can say that the NASB study Bible is the most popular Bible with Theologians. Because it is a literal translation that includes many verses that were not in the original manuscripts and highlights them with parentheses and notes that they were not in the older manuscripts .....Why have the verses that were added? For one to field questions about them. And two some of the added verses can be a study into 17th century beleifs as opposed to 1st century beliefs.

The NIV is accurate but does not include verses that were not in the older manuscripts.

There are few good translations….the ESV is easier to read.

And it is a good Idea to have a comparison Bible.

Bible Hub
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
Is a good site for comparing translations and how they match up with the words in the actual scriptures.

 

[Rockerduck]

The best Bible?….is no Bible at all.

It is best to have a working knowledge of the biblical languages and history. That will take you about a year of schooling. To read and write them that will take 3 to 4 years.

No matter what translation you pick you still need to be familiar with Lexicons and the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance but keep in mind it is linked to the KJV and inherits its errors.

Which is the best Bible?
It depends on who is using it and what they using it for.

After years of hobnobbing with Theologians I can say that the NASB study Bible is the most popular Bible with Theologians. Because it is a literal translation that includes many verses that were not in the original manuscripts and highlights them with parentheses and notes that they were not in the older manuscripts.

The NIV is accurate but does not include verses that were not in the older manuscripts.

There are few good translations….the ESV is easier to read.

And it is a good Idea to have a comparison Bible.

Bible Hub
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
Is a good site for comparing translations and how they match up with the words in the actual scriptures.

I don't teach theologians. I teach regular Christians. It's always 4 bibles. KJB, NKJB, NLT, and ESV. I do see an NASB sometimes. The two most common is the KJB and NKJB. I'm core tho'. Every bible is compared to the KJB, with all the warts.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't teach theologians. I teach regular Christians. It's always 4 bibles. KJB, NKJB, NLT, and ESV. I do see an NASB sometimes. The two most common is the KJB and NKJB. I'm core tho'. Every bible is compared to the KJB, with all the warts.

Well the funny thing is you can read the KJB to learn the Word of God.....but if you ever get serious about it....,.you will end up learning it twice.

 

[Rockerduck]

Well the funny thing is you can read the KJB to learn the Word of God.....but if you ever get serious about it....,.you will end up learning it twice.

True, but I let the Holy Spirit teach me. I know more at 70 yrs. old and teach 80 to 90 yr. old children.

 

[Grailhunter]

True, but I let the Holy Spirit teach me. I know more at 70 yrs. old and teach 80 to 90 yr. old children.

I am big on the Holy Spirit but a lot of people say the Holy Spirit teaches them but I am sure that it is one the reasons that there over 30,000 Protestant denominations.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excellent, excellent work here brother and have bookmarked the links provided and may our Lord Christ Jesus richly bless you in your endeavors to rightly divide the word of truth.

When you study brother, what dictionaries or sources are you using and on commentaries, which one would you recommend?

Dictionaries:

Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible

Read and study God's Word with Bible study software that has in-depth resources such as commentaries, Greek and Hebrew word tools, concordances, and more.

www.blueletterbible.org

(Note: After you search a key phrase, you can then select the Strong's option at the top if you have the desktop version selected. Then you can click on the Strong's number next to the word and see the Greek or Hebrew definition) (Note: On rare occasion, I do not always agree with Strong's, but overall this tool or resource is descent).​

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King James Bible Dictionary - Online Edition

King James Bible Dictionary - Eight of the world's greatest Bible dictionaries in one easy to use format. Eastons, Smiths, Naves, Websters 1828, Hitchcocks, Strongs, Thayers and Brown Driver Biggs

kingjamesbibledictionary.com

(Bible Dictionaries (which you have to be careful with sometimes), and the 1828 Websters)​

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Online Dictionary and Translations

1913 Webster's Online Dictionary, WordNet Lexical Database, Online Dictionary of Computing, Legal Online Dictionary, Medical Online Dictionary, Dream Dictionary. Includes dictionary browser, morphological search, thesaurus, related words, and dictionary browser. Provides usage examples

webster-dictionary.org

(1913 Websters Dictionary and WordNet Dictionary)​

(I prefer the 1913 Websters over the 1828 version)​

​

Collins Online Dictionary | Definitions, Thesaurus and Translations

Pioneers in Language Reference for 200 years. Popular and trusted online dictionary with over 1 million words. Find definitions, meanings, synonyms, pronunciations, translations, origin and examples.

www.collinsdictionary.com

(Lists the UK dictionaries along with American dictionaries)​

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Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE

Longman English Dictionary - the leading dictionary for learners of English of all levels: definitions, idioms, examples and more.

www.ldoceonline.com

(Sometimes has definitions that other dictionaries do not have)​

Great KJV Resources:

Main Page - Textus Receptus

textus-receptus.com

(This is Nick Sayers website. He is an Australian who defends the Textus Receptus and the KJV. He has compiled a ton of information on the KJV topic on his site) (Note: If you see that page does not load sometimes, just keep hitting the refresh button and it will come up) (Nick Sayers takes a more respected scholarly approach in defending the KJV / TR where he uses the Greek to defend the English in the KJV. Nick has debated before on YouTube defending the KJV at the Standing For Truth YouTube Channel).​

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Textus Receptus Bibles

Textus Receptus Bibles is a Bible study website with historical information on the Textus Receptus and the Bible translations. It has all the Bibles in an Interlinear and Parallel Bible format, and an English/Greek analysis for each verse.

textusreceptusbibles.com

(Listing of Textus Receptus Bibles in English that predate the KJV, and Some Greek TR editions).​

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WayofLife.org​

This is David Cloud's website. He has some really great KJV resources, and articles. David Cloud is similar to Nick Sayers in that he takes a more scholarly approach in defending the KJV / TR. My recommended PDF that are good to read or skim through from his website are the following:​

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For the Love of the Bible PDF:​

https://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/For_Love_of_the_Bible.pdf

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Modern Version Hall of Shame PDF:​

https://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/Modern_Bible_Version_Hall_of_Shame.pdf

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KJV Comparison Page

(If you scroll down a little on this page, you will see a great listing of changes that is very detailed. Some of the changes are not earth shattering information to use in a KJV debate, but there is some really great information here nonetheless) (Note: Dr. Ken Matto is the author of this website. Matto is into Calvinism, which I do not agree with but he does provide a good resource of the differences between the KJV and Modern Bibles nonetheless).​

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Another King James Bible Believer

The King James Bible.

brandplucked.com

(Probably the best KJV apologetics website. Will Kinney has covered a lot of attacks on the KJV and offers good answers. He has been a couple of debates defending the KJV on Standing For Truth YouTube Channel. Some of them are descent. I prefer his website more. Now, that said, Will Kinney is also into Calvinism, which I do not agree with. Nevertheless, he has probably the best KJV apologetics website).​

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Home

Welcome to KJV Today. Here you will find answers regarding the accuracy, reliability and relevance of the Authorized King James Version (KJV) of the Holy Bible.

sites.google.com

(I have not fully investigated this site yet, but I know Nick Sayers keeps bringing it up in his defense of the KJV on his YouTube channel. It does appear to be another great KJV apologetic site).​

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YouTube Channel Recommendations:

Nick Sayers Revolution Debates YouTube Channel.​

(Note: Just make sure you select the "Live" tab option at the top to see his content because he does most of his videos in a live format whereby you can comment and or participate. I think Nick also does his videos live because it saves him time in not having to edit his videos. Nick does go long on his videos. Meaning, many of his videos can be 4 hours long. But Nick offers a wealth of information. Every once in a while he may get side tracked, but nonetheless I have a learned a lot from his channel that is invaluable).​

Best Johannine Comma Defense Videos:

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--and I had to smile when I read this!

Another tactic of the "Greekmongers" is to reveal "shades of meaning of the original
Greek text" or "nuggets" which are "impossible" to find in the English text. The
quintessential passage to "prove" this is John 21:15-17 where they contrast one
Greek word for "love" with another Greek word. The game here is they claim
the Greek word "agapao" (#25) means a deep, selfless, divine love while the term
"phileo" (#5368) refers to a weaker friendly or affectionate type of love. The Greeklovers" build a dramatic and "powerful" message contrasting these two (self-defined)
Greek terms, "enlightening" the ignorant, common believer of their grasp of the
"original text." There is only one problem in their elaborate exposition, it is based on
nothing but pure speculation!
Here is how it works. First here is John 21:15-17:
15 "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon,
son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him,
Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed
my lambs.

I agree that many in the Critical Text Movement have a false understanding on the Greek words that underly the English word "love" in the KJV. But in my study, there are cases where the Greek can give a deeper meaning sometimes. This is by no means an attempt to explain away the words in English in the KJV (like those in the Modern Bible Movement will do at times). The English in the KJV is still true and very relevant. Granted, I am not a Greek expert by any means, and I am hoping to someday learn both Modern Greek from the locals in Greece, and also learn Koine Greek to disprove the Modern scholars and their false understanding on the Greek at times. Modern scholars also like to speak lies about Erasmus (who put together the first Greek / Latin TR editions we have today). Nick Sayers speaks about the truth involving Erasmus based on normal history and not the made up stuff by scholars that seeks to color things to their agenda. But yes, the whole different languages of love thing (by the scholars) is silly. This is not always true if one examines these definitions in light of reading how they appear elsewhere in the Bible. See, nobody seeks to do their own homework. They just believe these Modern scholars blindly and they don't do their own investigation to see if what they say checks out. That is why I don't trust Modern scholarship. They are not always truthful or open when it comes to the pertinent information we truly need. I say this based on my investigation and experience. So this by no means an empty claim.

May you be well in the Lord, Johann.

I hope this information I shared blesses you and to stay strong in the Lord and His Word.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

BL. Highlighter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excellent, excellent work here brother and have bookmarked the links provided and may our Lord Christ Jesus richly bless you in your endeavors to rightly divide the word of truth.

When you study brother, what dictionaries or sources are you using and on commentaries, which one would you recommend?

--and I had to smile when I read this!

Another tactic of the "Greekmongers" is to reveal "shades of meaning of the original
Greek text" or "nuggets" which are "impossible" to find in the English text. The
quintessential passage to "prove" this is John 21:15-17 where they contrast one
Greek word for "love" with another Greek word. The game here is they claim
the Greek word "agapao" (#25) means a deep, selfless, divine love while the term
"phileo" (#5368) refers to a weaker friendly or affectionate type of love. The Greeklovers" build a dramatic and "powerful" message contrasting these two (self-defined)
Greek terms, "enlightening" the ignorant, common believer of their grasp of the
"original text." There is only one problem in their elaborate exposition, it is based on
nothing but pure speculation!
Here is how it works. First here is John 21:15-17:
15 "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon,
son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him,
Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed
my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas,
lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord: thou knowest that I
love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest
thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third
time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest
all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him,
Feed my sheep."
After reading the passage the "scholar" then identifies the difference in the Greek
words for "love" and then defines these two terms as mentioned above (almost
always referring to something he read or heard, not to personal study). [Often the
entire basis for this "exposition" is a small commentary or radio "scholar," the
pseudo scholar simply believes their contention without checking it out and then
uses the new found "truth" himself. ] His delivery goes something like this:
"Once we get to John 21:15 the constraints of the English language
unfortunately conceal a great lesson from our Lord. We must consult the
original Greek text to realize the full meaning of this bountiful passage. In
verse 15 the Lord actually asks Peter,
"Peter ... lovest ("agape") thou me. (With a deep, intimate, selfless love)
more than these" (vs. 15)?
Then Peter responds, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love ("phileo")
thee." (With a casual, friendly type of love.)
The Greek "expert" then points out that the Lord, not receiving the answer
that He desires, asks again.
"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest ("agape") thou me" (vs. 16)?
Peter, it is then pointed out, is unwilling to commit himself to such a deep
relationship so he responds again.
"Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love ("phileo") thee."
At this point the "Greek expert" points out that a saddened Saviour gives in
to Peter's lack of commitment and changes His own choice of Greek words
to "phileo," questioning even Peter's casual "devotion."
"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest ("phileo") thou me" (vs. 17)?
This sudden change supposedly shocks Peter into seeing his own spiritual
infidelity to the Lord. Thus, saddened he answers. "... thou knowest that
I love ("phileo") thee."
Our false teacher then points out to his audience that there is no way to
attain such depth of meaning from this passage using only the feeble
English. Only the "wonderful Greek" can provide such insight.
Now, after having been "enlightened," lets examine these lofty claims in light of the
Scriptures.
"Phileo," supposedly the weaker "love," is found several times in the gospel of John.
If it only refers to "affection" or a "fondness" type of love as the Greek-junkies claim,
then surely it is used as such elsewhere, isn't it? Let's see. Its first use is in John 5:20,
"For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself
doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may
marvel.

A Defined King James Bible by D.A. Waite is another nice resource to have if you can find one on Ebay for a descent price.
He defines the uncommon (archaic) words at the bottom of the page within the Bible itself. I managed to pick up two of the leather bound editions before D.A. Waite passed away. So it was not too pricey when I got them. They have now gone up a lot in price. There are the cheaper hardcover versions but they are not as nice to own and use like a leather bound version.

 

[Deborah_]

Ministries develop papers, folders, mailers, and teaching materials, etc.. If based on the KJB, everything remains the same. The NIV 84 was around for 20 yrs., and colleges, ministries, Awana clubs, etc., used the NIV 84, then NIV stopped publication of it, and took it off the shelves. All the churches, and colleges had to change to another bible. All lessons, software, and books all had to be trashed.

Really? No church I've been involved in felt the need to do so. When their Bibles needed replacing, they moved to the newer version, but not before.

It's all a bit silly, really. The two NIVs are virtually identical.

With so many different translations knocking around these days, people have got used to the small differences between them.

 

[Rockerduck]

Really? No church I've been involved in felt the need to do so. When their Bibles needed replacing, they moved to the newer version, but not before.

It's all a bit silly, really. The two NIVs are virtually identical.

With so many different translations knocking around these days, people have got used to the small differences between them.

The 2011 NIV uses gender neutral language which changes the phrases. It mainly effected Colleges, schools, and some denominations. Do a little research yourself.

 

[Deborah_]

The 2011 NIV uses gender neutral language which changes the phrases. It mainly effected Colleges, schools, and some denominations. Do a little research yourself.

I'm well aware of that, but they didn't "have to" change their Bibles immediately - maybe some institutions wanted to, but that wasn't what your post said.

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm well aware of that, but they didn't "have to" change their Bibles immediately - maybe some institutions wanted to, but that wasn't what your post said.

I have teaching material for the NIV 84. They are test questions. and lessons. Words and phrases matter. No, they did not change overnight but knew what was coming. Now, why did Zondervan cease publishing the NIV 84, when they could have kept it in print? I can still buy the 95 NASB and the newer 2020 NASB.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I'll take the 300 yrs old, never updated KJB over the constantly updating modern bibles. If you base your ministry on the KJB, your ministry will be constant. If you based it on the 1984 NIV, well, you know what happened.

The problem with the KJB is it's missing a lot scripture, it's an inferior incomplete version. Many more Manuscripts were found after the KJB, so why would ignore the additional scriptures.
They say ignorance is bliss, I can only assume you're afraid of the truth found in the complete version of the Bible.

There's no benefit in going back to the dark ages, while we have been enlightened with the complete canon of scripture. The Roman Catholic Church kept everyone in the dark, up until around the 1950's, the priests only read parts of the bible in Latin. So the congregation had no idea what all that was about.

I don't understand why people refuse to embrace the complete canon of scripture, they deprive themselves of many benefits.

 

[Christian Soldier]

But you would commit spiritual fornication with anyone who holds to your false unbiblical doctrine? - LOL

Is your church service online?

[

I already told you I don't have my own doctrine, I know you have invented your private doctrine but I never did any such foolish thing. I allow God to speak for Himself, He doesn't need me to superimpose my private doctrine over His.
It's obvious you don't care about Gods doctrine, as you have your own.

Good luck with your private doctrine, I hope it saves you