Once Saved Always Saved

[BreadOfLife]

Yet it doesn't have to be. You are trying to make a simple verse complicated because it doesn't agree with your belief.
But you want to say, "hold up, everyone! We have to examine a word here!" You are critical of one tree without looking at the forest.

WRONG.
You HAVE to take the words used in these verses seriously.

Epignosis doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean. It means much more.
However, that destroys your position, so you'll just "overlook" it.

Well I agree with that... Much of your opinion is pretty irrelevant. But it does show your character doesn't it?
I really don't care what they say... I care what the Bible says.

Really?
In English or in the original language?

There's not a linguist or biblical scholar alive who would take YOUR position seriously . . .

I lost the debate? Really? Hey... Tell me EXACTLY when I said English was equivalent to the Greek!
I actually believe it has been properly translated and understand what Hebrews 10:26 says without having to google a defense like you probably did.
I am not the one who is saying, "let me tell you why the Bible doesn't mean what it says!"
And what EXACTLY do yo believe my argument? My stance is that this verse has nothing to do with predestination, pro or con!

You are simply arguing because you picked a fight and don't know how to get out of it.

Ummmmm, this entire argument is about YOUR acceptance that the English is equivalent to the Greek.
Look at your statement above:
"I really don't care what they say... I care what the Bible says."
What does that mean, exactly??

If you actually cared wht the "Bible" said - you would understand that translations are NOT inerrant.
The only thing that is guaranteed to be inerrant are the original languages in which it was written.

That is BIBLE 101 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Its like this.
First you replace the Blood of Jesus with "water" and then you tell actual born again Christians that the "greek" is what they need to be reading, instead of the BIBLE.
So, thats you. ... 100%.
And its no revelation, as your "cult of the Virgin" does not want its cultist to read the bible, which is why you tell people to go to the Greek.
Your cult denied its people their right to read the BIBLE, until 1961, and here you are, trying to talk people out of the bible, in favor of GREEK, that they can't actually read.
So, what does that make you?
= Exactly.

Eainstein - the "Greek" IS the Bible.
The NT was written in Greek, which was the lingua franca of the 1st century in case you didn't know.

As for the rest of your rant - you're simply going off-topic because you LOST this argument.
Now - either get back on topic or go bother someone else with your nonsense . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WRONG.

As I have shown repeatedly - the very word, "Epignosis" already connotes that the person had FAITH.
This is the FOURTH time I have had to present this scholarly linguistic evidence - so pay attention:

Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

This LAST definition from the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament calls Epignosis "CHRISTIAN FAITH".
You don't have a linguistic leg to stand on here . . .

You can believe what you want. But in context. Your wrong

It says they received knowledge. Not that they received salvation

they are two separate things.



Not to mention. The rest of scripture goes against this interpretation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL

Always beginning with your Negative Narrative, is such an old tactic for the naive, and transparent to the wise.

Lesson for you...
Having Faith ... Does Not mean Converted.
Faith is a Gift from God.
Many men who are NOT Converted, Receive Faith from God.

@ Eternally Grateful is exactly Correct.
What an individual DOES with their gift of Faith, determines THAT specific individual's Final outcome.

Opinions, philosophies, box characterizing words OF men, are irrelevant.

"Full, experiential and relational knowledge."
This is the definition of Epignosis. It's NOT just a passing fancy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can believe what you want. But in context. Your wrong
It says they received knowledge. Not that they received salvation

they are two separate things.

Not to mention. The rest of scripture goes against this interpretation.

WRONG agai.
It says, they received "Epignosis".

This word is ONLY used 15 times in the Bible - and it ALWAYS means the same thing:
"Full, experiential and relational knowledge" - and NOT simply an intellectual knowledge.

 

[Wrangler]

This is the FOURTH time I have had to present this scholarly linguistic evidence - so pay attention:

Didn’t Jesus thank God that his message was meant for the common man and not the scholars, etc?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then their life came to an end...and therefore it was never everlasting, but was always temporal.

You have everlasting life as long as you endure in faith.
If that bothers you - take it up with God . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Didn’t Jesus thank God that his message was meant for the common man and not the scholars, etc?

And didn't Peter warn his readers that Paul's letters were difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction like they do the OTHER Scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16)??

 

[Wrangler]

And didn't Peter warn his readers that Paul's letters were difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction like they do the OTHER Scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16)??

Is that a yes, the Good News message was meant for the common man and not scholars, etc?

I think you are confusing the 'common man' with 'the ignorant and unstable.' Love God. Love others. Not too hard to grasp even for intellectuals who, like Pharisee's, sift their mustard seed but miss the weightier matters. If you and justbyfaith had the true Epignosis, I doubt you'd post as you do.

 

[Taken]

John also said "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." 1 John 1:8

You must take his statements in context. The translators did not do us justice in some cases.

For example, Does not commit sin, actually means "does not practice sin."

The context makes it clear he is not speaking of the believer never sinning!

I always taken Scripture in Context of its Application to me.

Only The Lord God and myself, Know exactly what I think, Believe, have done, have not done.

1 John 1:8...
Does not apply to me.
Not once have I ever said...or claimed...or believe...I have no sin".
So why do you think that relevant to post to me?

1 John 3:9...
On Point 1 John 3:9 IS expressly applicable to me.
And IS applicable to every single Converted man...
Which "you claim your are converted"...
But then "claim in complete Opposition", of
1 John 3:9 being applicable to you.

Do tell HOW you are Born Again... but not the "whosoever" in 1 John 3:9...

 

[Behold]

Eainstein - the "Greek" IS the Bible.
The NT was written in Greek, which was the lingua franca of the 1st century in case you didn't know.

As for the rest of your rant - you're simply going off-topic because you LOST this argument.
Now - either get back on topic or go bother someone else with your nonsense . . .

The "cult of the virgin" denied Catholics their right to read a bible.
This is why the Catholic caused DARK AGES existed for hundreds of years.
In 1961, the "cult of the virgin" relented and decided to allow their victims the right to finally read their bible, instead of only coming to the Cult for more deception.

Also, the Greek is the Greek.
The Bible is the English.

Listen carefully, water cultist....
God, is smarter then you, but you might not believe it..
See, God is involved with FOREKNOWLEDGE, and in the foreknowledge of God, He knew the ENGLISH Language would be the UNIVERSAL application and not the "dead koine greek" that is barely remembered, or spoken.
So, God had ENGLISH BIBLES become the MAIN WORD, because God knows the end from the beginning.

 

[Behold]

I suppose what I am really asking is this—- in your opinion, are those that “ Fall from Grace” damned , as some maintain......or do they just live out a “ Crippled” Walk Of Faith.....I subscribe to the latter....

A believer who has "gone back into the flesh", and become "bewitched" as Paul teaches, has "fallen from Grace".
They are not lost, they are just deceived by the devil.

You can't stop being born again, but you can stop believing right and when you do that you fall from the position of true understanding, regarding what it means to be "made righteous".
So, to fall from that understanding is a FAITH issue, and when that is the problem, you are "fallen from Grace".
Disconnected from the TRUE understanding of "Justification by faith" that is the "Gift of Salvation".

If you want to spot the Christian nut-bars, then just let them try to explain how the 'Gift of Salvation" is something they do, keep, and can lose.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then their life came to an end...and therefore it was never everlasting, but was always temporal.

Its amazing how they scream at a greek word (epignoses) must mean this. (which it does mean what they say)
Yet when it comes to the word everlasting/eternal, the greek word which means never ending, without end, everlasting or eternal. does not mean what it says..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Saved people continue to have faith. They have to, or else they are not part of God's house....

we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. Hebrews 3:6​

Saved people dont lose faith. God does not give them a reason to.

We lose faith when the person who has gained our trust proves untrustworthy.

If you think we can lose faith. You must doubt Gods faithfulness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He's very plainly talking about salvation....

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? James 2:14​

The claim to be saved is false if it does not have works to back up the claim.

Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child... 1 John 3:10​

yes,

But this is not talking about the ability to lose salvation. It is spoken of a claimed salvation. Which is false

 

[FHII]

WRONG.
You HAVE to take the words used in these verses seriously.

Epignosis doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean. It means much more.
However, that destroys your position, so you'll just "overlook" it.

Really?
In English or in the original language?

There's not a linguist or biblical scholar alive who would take YOUR position seriously . . .

Ummmmm, this entire argument is about YOUR acceptance that the English is equivalent to the Greek.
Look at your statement above:
"I really don't care what they say... I care what the Bible says."
What does that mean, exactly??

If you actually cared wht the "Bible" said - you would understand that translations are NOT inerrant.
The only thing that is guaranteed to be inerrant are the original languages in which it was written.

That is BIBLE 101 . . .

Dude, once again your entire arguement is a waste of time. Your accusations are baseless and you are spending time over-analyzing one word instead of reading the verse. And no, I don't care what they say (that is, what your "experts" say) but rather what the Bible says. If they agree with the Bible, great!

Once again, I have read your definitions and all your mumbo jumbo... Its not needed when you read the passage properly. You get what the original greek meaning of the word just fine without over analyzing the word. What does that mean? It means I can read it and get the proper meaning from it just fine.

So, you can take your over-analyzations, your baseless accusations and your utterly stupid conclusions and do whatever you want with them, but I'm not buying the garbage you are peddling.

Why, I bet you can't even recall what my position on all this is... Not truthfully anyway! In short, I am not going to play your game of, "Let me tell you why the Bible doesn't mean what it says".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't care about that. I'm showing you that your claim that people who don't have faith can be saved people too is false. All saved people have faith. If you do not have faith, you do not belong to God's house.

we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. Hebrews 3:6​

People who do not have faith are called antichrists.

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

And he said they were never saved

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

What was missing, Is they did not have the anointing.

1 John 2: 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The people in "Christ's Day" were Hebrews.
This is ISRAEL where CHRIST walked and talked.
Its where my home is located.
Jews don't speak Greek, they speak "Hebrew" or in Christ's day Aramaic.
This is not "greek".

The Apostles did not speak it routinely, and they did not write it.
This is why their Letters were Translated INTO Greek, and later into English.

Yes they were hebrew.

Required by the roman empire to learn and be affluent in Greek,

This started with the greek empire. and continued with the roman empire.

The common language of all people in the roman empire was koine greek.

It is a well known fact that most of the NT was originally written in greek.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, if I believe what the holy scriptures say on this matter, according to my adversary I am preaching and believing a FALSE and PERVERTED gospel and have "FALLEN FROM GRACE".


What your “ Adversary” ( me) thinks or says means Nothing.....I simply invite anybody out there
to read the short book of Galatians and then tell me that I am wrong in my assessment of this guy’s False and Perverted “ Gospel” Of Lucky Repentance.....
He unmistakenly Adds to the Gospel Of Grace with “ Jesus Saves BUT ya gotta Repent Of all of your sins before you die or you go to Hell”.......That makes him one who “Falls from Grace”...... read Galatians and YOU decide......does he Add to the Gospel or not?
Here is how you do NOT “ add to the Gospel”——- “Jesus Saves, no “BUTS” attached....” or just teach the Song, “ NOTHING But The Blood Of Jesus” ....NOTHING.
Check out my new post ....” Two Types Of Repenters Find Damnation”

Even in Galatians 5:19-21, it becomes clear that if anyone walks according to the flesh, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Thus, in order to inherit the kingdom of God, one must cease from walking according to the flesh.

That means that you must repent.

Listen..

You can't fall away from being born again, but you can fall away from right believing.
And that is you.
Your faith is in YOU.
That is why you always talk about losing your salvation, as this is the corrupted faith talk of the SELF SAVOR.
Thats you.

I believe that the Holy Spirit has instilled within me the faith that I need to continue to be saved; and that He will continue to instill in me that faith. Therefore my faith is in the Holy Spirit, even God.

And the only reason why I talk about losing salvation, is because I intend to bring a balanced understanding to the doctrine of OSAS. The Bible does indeed declare that those who have a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith can fall away (Luke 8:12-13) from that faith.

I would like to hear it straight from the horse's mouth...

@Behold, do you believe that if someone has faith in Christ, and then falls away (Luke 8:13) or is cut off (Romans 11:20-22), that they continue to have salvation?

What do you say, @Behold?

Do you have the guts to tell us what you really believe on this matter?

Because I believe that those who believe or teach that the one who falls away continues to have salvation, is believing or teaching heresy.

For example, Does not commit sin, actually means "does not practice sin."

The context makes it clear he is not speaking of the believer never sinning!

What context?

If you actually cared wht the "Bible" said - you would understand that translations are NOT inerrant.

So, you are someone that we can lump together with the mormons...who say that "the Bible is only correct insofar as it is correctly translated."

I am of the opinion that at the very least, the kjv has been translated correctly....

The devil has attempted to create confusion by creating translations that water down the message; and then lumping the kjv in with those translations as being a translation that is also not correct,

You have everlasting life as long as you endure in faith.
If that bothers you - take it up with God . . .

If you no longer have everlasting life the moment you lose faith, then it was not everlasting in the first place; but temporal from the getgo.

Those who have a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith (or mere mental assent) do not have everlasting life. They are delivered from sin for a season but not from hell.

But the whole point of this discussion is to say that as concerning the doctrine of epignosis, there is a difference between those who have a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith and those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If what you say is true, the common word for knowledge "gnosis" would have been used!

No my friend, Paul used exactly the word he intended to address what you refuse to believe!

I see your back again.

Well mr catholic (or should I call you jewish) . Your wrong

It says they RECIEVED it. It never said they accepted it.

Your the one who refuses to grasp my friend.