Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Remember, the OT was but a shadow. Jesus is the light. If there is anywhere that one looks at as light, and that gives light to anything, it is Jesus Christ.

You’ll be more than amazed than you are now who looks at things concerning the NT and the Christian in the light of the OT or in the light of the shadows.

I guess your "flowery" words are supposed to mean something and help someone?

The OT is a "type" and "shadow" which informs us as to how the NT works--fulfilling precisely the function which you deny it does. The OT was inspired by the Spirit of God, written to Christians, and illuminates the NT.

I am not really here to teach, but to share the words of God in scriptures.

I don’t know about you, but I take the NT as the light and not the one needing light. It is the shadow that needs the light, at least that is my take.

Yes the OT scriptures sure informs us a lot of things about Jesus Christ and the NT. Not denying that. But it is the NT scriptures that brought to light what it was informing us about all along, which even the Prophets did not fully understood. Well, it’s hard to see in the shadows, right? God meant it that way, until the light came, full of grace and truth.

Tong
R3059

 

[GracePeace]

I am not really here to teach, but to share the words of God in scriptures.

I don’t know about you, but I take the NT as the light and not the one needing light. It is the shadow that needs the light, at least that is my take.

Yes the OT scriptures sure informs us a lot of things about Jesus Christ and the NT. Not denying that. But it is the NT scriptures that brought to light what it was informing us about all along, which even the Prophets did not fully understood. Well, it’s hard to see in the shadows, right? God meant it that way, until the light came, full of grace and truth.

Tong
R3059

Great, so since the NT directs you to the OT for authoritative teaching on how Christianity works (2 Timothy 3:15), you should do that--exactly as I'm saying you should do, in accordance with Paul's own explicit practice (1 Corinthians 9, 10, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,).

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What is scary is when one begins to shift from the salvation of God of people by His work to one’s effort and working. It perverts the gospel of grace into becoming mixed up with some sort of deserving to be saved because he does this and that. It sort of veils the truth that after one is saved, what obedience and good he does thereafter, he does not for salvation, but for the glory of Him who saved Him.

It’s scary in that, they begin to live a life according to such perverted truth, which prevents them of the blessed life that they should be experiencing otherwise, even of having to save up treasures in heaven that they would have and enjoy for not a time but for all time.

You seem to think "salvation" is the "last word"--it's not. According to Apostolic doctrine (1 Corinthians 10), the Jews were "saved" from slavery in Egypt, and they were "baptized" into Moses, but they still fell under God's wrath in the wilderness and never inherited the Promise (the land of Canaan)--and Paul teaches that these things correspond to Christians' lives before God now (that though we have been "saved" and "baptized", we have yet to inherit the Promise and we must serve God in righteousness while we are, so to speak, "in the wilderness", or else we will not inherit the Promise).

Eternal life is only going to be repaid doers of good Romans 2:6-16 and Galatians 6:6-10 and John 5:29.

Now, you can (emptily) assert you have been "saved", and that you don't need to do good works, but that will be a very strange "salvation" when you won't be inheriting eternal life.

That perhaps is the view of those who take the OT shadow to shed light to NT truths, which came through Jesus Christ, who is the Light Himself. As I said, in my view, that would be a mistake. I just do not imagine myself to go to the shadows and take the shadows and expect it to shed light on light.

And this is the NT truth that sheds light to the shadow concerning the children of God.

OT Shadow: the children of God = the children of Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac, through Jacob.

NT Light: the children of God = Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 4:28

As for the last word, it is salvation. Jesus Christ is the salvation of God. And He had already come 2000+ years ago. That is the good news that the angels announced to the world.

Tong
R3060

 

[GracePeace]

That perhaps is the view of those who take the OT shadow to shed light to NT truths, which came through Jesus Christ, who is the Light Himself. As I said, in my view, that would be a mistake. I just do not imagine myself to go to the shadows and take the shadows and expect it to shed light on light.

And this is the NT truth that sheds light to the shadow concerning the children of God.

OT Shadow: the children of God = the children of Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac, through Jacob.

NT Light: the children of God = Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 4:28

Tong
R3060

So, it's the opinion of the likes of Jesus Matthew 13:52.

Right.

Again, Paul was exactly one of these men referred to in Mt 13:52--he was a master of the "OT" Scriptures, which Peter says are a "lamp" (give light), and most of the "NT" was written by him because the Scriptures informed him as to the New Covenant faith 2 Timothy 3:15. Therefore, it is with Paul that you find fault.

Again, you reject this plain truth because you have a predisposition that is foreign, alien, to the Scriptures.

 

[GracePeace]

That perhaps is the view of those who take the OT shadow to shed light to NT truths, which came through Jesus Christ, who is the Light Himself. As I said, in my view, that would be a mistake. I just do not imagine myself to go to the shadows and take the shadows and expect it to shed light on light.

And this is the NT truth that sheds light to the shadow concerning the children of God.

OT Shadow: the children of God = the children of Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac, through Jacob.

NT Light: the children of God = Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 4:28

As for the last word, it is salvation. Jesus Christ is the salvation of God. And He had already come 2000+ years ago. That is the good news that the angels announced to the world.

Tong
R3060

The fact that the OT was a "type and shadow of things to come" does not diminish from its importance to partakers in the New Covenant--on the contrary, it establishes its eminence. The reason God gave the Old Covenant Scriptures was to foretell and explain the New Covenant. He wrote those Scriptures to CHRISTIANS 1 Corinthians 9:10, 1 Corinthians 10:11. Do you deny this doctrine too? Do you deny that God wrote the OT Scriptures TO CHRISTIANS?

What other basic doctrine are you going to deny next (just because it doesn't agree with your manmade traditions)? I'm about done wasting my time with you.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
@GracePeace

Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you? When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?

So how does that truth now come to you?

Some, if not many, seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.

1) I have not personally asked God very much about that verse, but I do admit that if I had not been faced with seemingly impossible-to-reconcile verses already so many times, and been helped by God, I would falter at it because it really seems to teach that we were picked for salvation before the foundation of the world, and the conclusion would be a Calvinistic/Monergistic one indeed. I can freely admit that. The problem is that I already know the Bible, and the Bible's unanimous teaching is contrary to that conclusion--the end result is that I get excited to learn a satisfactory explanation for such verses. I have had many other questions I've spent my time asking God about, but of late I have begun to ask God about this verse. I will let you know when God makes it clear to me, though I have begun to have an idea about its meaning already.

2) Yes, we are seated in heavenly places--yet, "But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day." We have the spirit of adoption, but not the actual physical adoption, the redemption of the body :
Romans 8
23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

Under your way of viewing things, it would seem we had NOTHING to wait patiently for. That is why your view is sub-Biblical.

So, in the same way, even though we are spiritually seated with Him in heavenly places, it is only those who walk in that reality who will ultimately inherit that physically--the rest (Christians, men who have been "seated with Christ in heavenly places", but who do not follow the Spirit, who do not seek those things which are above where their lives are hidden in Christ) will be blotted out of the book of life because they have sinned against God (Exodus 32:32-33 ; Revelation 3:4-5).

<<<Under your way of viewing things, it would seem we had NOTHING to wait patiently for. That is why your view is sub-Biblical.>>>

Not so for indeed I wait patiently, for one, for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

<<<So, in the same way, even though we are spiritually seated with Him in heavenly places, it is only those who walk in that reality who will ultimately inherit that physically--the rest (Christians, men who have been "seated with Christ in heavenly places", but who do not follow the Spirit, who do not seek those things which are above where their lives are hidden in Christ) will be blotted out of the book of life because they have sinned against God (Exodus 32:32-33 ; Revelation 3:4-5).>>>

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Either you believe that or not. Either you believe that those who were made alive, raised up, made to sit together with Christ in the heavenly places is true or you believe that that is not true but will be determined still by their following of the Holy Spirit. That somehow, their works would change what truth is revealed in Eph.2:4-6.

On my part, I believe the truth it says, without that. Why? Because it is God’s words that Paul revealed concerning the true Christians.

Tong
R3061

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Is Samson’s case a sealing as the sealing of the Christians? Was Samson indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

1) Do those things which happened to them have bearing on Christians?

1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things took place as examples for us... 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2) You didn't even try to address my other points I raised.

Those things that happened to them were written down for the Christians with intent as you have pointed out the passage says. And that intent isn’t about the Christian to get saved from eternal punishment in hell. Besides, the Christian is one who had already been saved from that having been made alive, raised together and made to sit together with Jesus Christ in the heavenly places. So, that by itself tells us that the intent was not for that. The passages tells us “Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.”

That is why I said that it was irrelevant. It does not speak about the issue at hand.

Tong
R3062

 

[Tong2020]

Here is my stance/and understanding
If We were given the Spirit we should walk in it.
If we say we were given the Spirit and do not walk in it can you ever say you know you have life or overcome the world. The key is we can overcome the word if we through the Spirit Mortify the deeds of the flesh.........for the result "you shall live" So say you have the Spirit and you are seal with it for/until the day of redemption and you still remain how you were when you first received it........My thought is God is Holy......would not heaven be Hell for someone who has the opportunity to purify themselves by the word and does not.


In my thought...and I am not dogmatic...about this... Is we are here for a reason....rather as some say a training ground for reigning.
I believe that "it is life" real existence, real purpose that matters. For That is a reason He came....that we have life and have it to its fullest.........therefore if we love him we keep His command[this is the flow] and the father and son comes in to make their home......
I see this as a journey of continuing in the teachings.....rather restoration of the soul, or reoccurring refreshment.....but I believe they are somehow our reward......

Regarding your statement:

“we are here for a reason..”


Those who are born of God, they are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus. And For what? For good works, which God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them. (Eph.2:10).

Tong
R3963

 

[Tong2020]

"Tong2020, post: 1010186, member: 8685"Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?
It tells me just as Abraham was chosen to walk before Him blameless that they were chosen IN the same light.
He said to Abe, walk before Him blameless and He would make a covenant with Him.
And I believe those who do such enter into that covenant.

Does it not tell you that Christians were chosen in Christ before they even actually existed? Why? That they should be holy and without blame before Him in love. How? The next verse in that passages tells us and I quote “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself”. To what end ? And the next verse tells us “according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace,”.

So, we see that there are those whom God had chosen from among mankind in Christ Jesus, even before the foundation of the world for His good pleasure and to His praise. They are the Christians, those born of God, those He created in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you?
It tells me those people were born from above..Yet is does not say what it takes to remain or To know.

Well, we are not concerned of what it does not say. Does it not tell you that the Christians, even before the time that they were converted and do good works thereafter, they were already made alive, raised up and made to sit together in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus? Yes it does tells us that. It’s then a matter of time that these things will unfold. Clearly and without question, as the passage says, by grace they have been saved. This was repeated by Paul in verse 8.

When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?

You must asked God why He quickened them when they were dead.

The question is not WHY but WHEN. And the passage tells us, and I quote “when we were dead in trespasses,“. It was not after one believed but before, even while we were yet sinners. But to be more specific, it was when Jesus died and when He was raised up and when He ascended back to heaven and sit at the right hand of God. So for the Christians after those events up to today, those things already were done concerning them and only unfolds in their time.

So how does that truth now come to you?

Same way it came before you quoted scriptures.
Not sure what you thought I should see that I did not see before

Some, if not many, seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.
The question is why would He unless He never came to know just what He had in Christ....
Liken to what the writer says.....I write these things so that you may know you have life.
If you never know because you do not continue in His Love....then what does scripture say?

Roman's 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Perhaps. But even ignorance would not change what truth is revealed in Eph.1:4, Eph.2:4-6. Not one’s will nor anything can change that. At least according to my understanding of the nature and character of God.

Tong
R3064

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God sure elects. But if what you are saying is that God’s election is based on a qualifier, as only those who have faith in Him, I don’t find scriptures saying that. Perhaps you can tell is the reference scriptures.

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’e Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.

The will of the Father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

I don’t think that passage effectively says that the election of God is based on a qualifier, that is, faith.

Tong
R3065

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
@Corlove13

Born from above that Jesus speaks in John 3 which He tells Nicodemus about is birth according not of the will of man, but that of God. It is birth according to the Spirit. And as it is of the will of God and not man, we understand that in such birth, while it concerns man, man’s will has nothing to do with it.

<<<Jesus called Nicodemus out for not understanding the birth from above by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he should know since he was a teacher of Israel. So we have to ask ourselves where in the old testament scriptures does it talk about being born again, or born from above, that Nicodemus should have known about, but didn't.>>>

Nicodemus, being the teacher of Israel should know about Isaac and Ishmael.

Gal.4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Isaac was born according to the Spirit and Ishmael born according to the flesh. Isaac was born of the will of God and Ishmael was born of the will of man.

Paul there have revealed something concerning the Christians. That they are children of promise, like Isaac was. And so, like Isaac was, they are born according to the Spirit, that is, they are born from above, born of the will of God.

I am not sure...if you can mesh it all together like that........meaning to say His will=born from above.
However to be born from above may be His will

Don’t you agree that those “born from above” are those born according to the Spirit?

Don’t you agree that those who are “born from above” are those “born of God”?

Tong
R3066

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Eph.2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

The point is: the saving aspect is they were dead and now quickened with Christ.
.......

Yes, but that is only one aspect. Another saving aspect is that they were made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Tong
R3067

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
When you say “You are severed from Christ", do you mean separated from Christ? As in separated from the love of Christ?

They departed from God (Galatians 1:6), so, yes, separated from the love of God THAT IS IN CHRIST because they DEPARTED FROM CHRIST where God's love is located.

In that case, consider this passage:

Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What power had separated the Galatians from Christ and the love of God in Christ? Their will power? The deceptive power of the ministers of Satan? What? Are not such powers included in those powers that are spoken in the passage as to not be able to separate the Christians(true) from Christ and the love of God in Christ?

Tong
R3068

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You are not saying that one’s putting away the deeds of the flesh will reap for him salvation unto eternal life, right?

That is precisely what Scripture teaches

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seekinga and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Romans 8
12So then, brothers,e we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6
6Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Well we do have scriptures that says salvation is by grace, and that eternal life is a gift from God.

I have already pointed out Romans 2 speaks of the Jews and the Gentiles, not the Christians.

Now regarding the figure of sowing and reaping, the man sows. But is it the man who makes the seed grow to be a plant and bears fruit? No. It is God. What the man reaps is what fruit God had the plant to bear. That is still a gift from God.

Tong
R3069

 

[Tong2020]

1) Paul doesn't write epistles to lost Jews and Gentiles, he writes to churches--he was addressing Jewish and Gentile Christians in the Roman Church.

Yes Paul wrote to Christians. But what Paul writes in that part of Romans 2 is not about Christians, but about the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles).

Tong
R3070

 

[Tong2020]

3) You need to read Romans 6 in context, not just tear your favorite prooftext out of context. It says that slavery to righteousness leads to holiness and the end result of holiness is eternal life Romans 6:22-23. That is correct. We have received the gift of slavery to righteousness. The only difference between yourself and I is that I believe ALL the Bible but you only believe a measly little out of context verse. That said, slaves who are "lazy" will be sent to hell Matthew 25:24.

If eternal life is something that could be earned or is some reward for doing something, then explain why in v.23 Paul speaks of it as a gift of God. I am sure you know what a gift is and you know the difference between a reward and a gift.

<<<The only difference between yourself and I is that I believe ALL the Bible but you only believe a measly little out of context verse.>>>

We have quite an honest and good exchange for some time now. Why the language all of a sudden? Why resort now to ad hominem? Does that have anything to do with the argument? Do you find any strength in that?

Tong
R3071

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If you’ll consider your answer, you will see the relevance. The relevance is in the answer, not in the question. If you tell me your answer, I would be able to show you its relevance.

I just read the Bible and believe it. It says they began by the Spirit and then departed from the truth--Jesus being the Truth, then, they departed from Him.

The question was “Would you consider any time in your Christian life, that you once had fallen away?”

Your post is irrelevant to the question.

Anyway, if you don’t want to know how the answer to the question is relevant to the issue at hand, that’s up to you.

Tong
R3072

 

[Tong2020]

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Corlove13 I think because should be "for"

That’s up to you. No problem.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

How one is saved by His life is the same as how one is reconciled to God by His death, through faith in God and Jesus Christ.
Corlove13 ...my point would be
After one is saved [quickened] it's to live out the life [that is how one can be Justified] ....means that the covenant is the way we ste governed for life here...amd how we overcome this world.......

Does not tell us how one is saved by His life, His resurrection.

<<<But what happens when they get carried away by the cares of this world? Are you saying they continue to be reward life?>>>

I don’t take life as a reward, but a gift.
Yes I understand why for "reward" you most likely think refers to working to earn salvation......

That you may receive the reward of your faith: The Life of your souls; 1 peter 1;9

Romans 6:23 is clear to me. Death is the wages or reward of sin, and eternal is the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

So in Ephesians 2: the saving there is from being dead in Sin.......and there is nothing we did there...to Earn being quickened to life.

But God rewards those who diligently seek Him.....
but now we have His Spirit...
So there is nothing we do without Him, and There is nothing we will do alone.


so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6:4

If and when they bear no fruit because they get carried away by the cares of the world, they will received their just reward. They will be chastened by God, those who are His sons.
You just used reward here....lol

What is funny or wrong about the use of reward?

Tong
R3073

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Examples for what purpose?

“ to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.”

Right, because otherwise what happened to them will happen to us--just as they fell under wrath and did not inherit the promise so also we will fall under wrath and not inherit the promise.

And the promise to the children of Israel relative to that was?

Tong
R3074

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
When you say “You are severed from Christ", do you mean separated from Christ? As in separated from the love of Christ?

2 Corinthians 13
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

This is why Paul said that Christ had to be formed in the Galatians "again" Galatians 4:19--they had been deceived by evil workers and had departed from the faith and so departed from God and His Christ (Galatians 1:6, Galatians 5:4).

It’s good you quoted that scriptures. It only shows us that not all those who profess to be Christians or who call themselves brethren in Christ, are truly in the faith.

So, taking that truth in the Galatian church, those who went out from the faith only shows they have failed the test, and so are not true brethren in Christ or are not true believers in Christ. If then they are not, while they be said as have fallen away, they really had not, in that, they weren’t in the faith to begin with.

Tong
R3075