Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you don’t need it now? Why?

Because I believe right now and am not presently enduring any temptation to return to the world.

So, you understand now why the apostles give such exhortation? So the exhortation must be understood on that context, yes?

Tong2020 said: ↑
What are you thinking that would make you need such exhortation?

The day might come where I am tempted to return to the world because of some trial, or tribulation, or testing, or desire I have not encountered yet. Paul says to be humble about this, not conceited as many in the church seem to be.

It seems now, you realize the context of such exhortation.

As I see it, Jesus had experienced the greatest temptation. He had shown the power of faith and what it is to have faith in God. God gave such faith to them whom He saves. One who have such faith is the one who can and will overcome, just like Jesus did. Now that is a matter of the heart. And those whom God saves, God gave them a new heart. God replaces his heart whose intent is continuously evil, with one whose intent is continuously good. Now one who has a heart like that does not see himself anytime in the future to be choosing to reject Christ or not. So let’s check our hearts today. If our heart tells us that we can reject Christ because of tribulations, sufferings, testing, desire, then we should go to Jesus Christ and pray about that.

Tong
R2899

 

[Tong2020]

OSAS....no matter what
So I am sure I am right about what you have been saying through these threads.
But ya know I will play your game.
Prove me wrong...
You list all the things that can prevent a Christian from going to heaven. No double talk.

I will give you the one thing. It may surprise you.

Not being in Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2900

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You say “keep believing” is what matters, at least for you. And why? Let me guess, if this is even just a guess. Because by doing so, you stay and remain saved.

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25​

If you think that's just automatic for the believer then good, I guess you're just going to be able to do that easier than those of us who don't believe that. The important thing is that you are doing that. Let's not argue over meaningless contentions. Let's stay focused on exhorting one another to keep believing in the gospel message, just as the Bible tells us to do.

Who’s saying it’s automatic?

I thought you said you don’t need the exhortation today? And why would I presume that any one here needed the exhortation?

Meaningless contentions? Perhaps for you, because you are offended by the truth of it? Your contention that one have to do this or that to remain saved isn’t meaningless. For if it were the truth, would I not take it as important? That’s why I check it out in scriptures. However, I find scriptures as not teaching that, at least when one considers what Jesus Christ had accomplished for those whom He saves.

Exhortations are for those who seem to show weakness and in the brink and danger of being overcome by all sorts of lies, deceptions, pressures etc.

Tong
R2901

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
We have to accept passages like Colossions 3, and I John 3, just like all the others.

That is the issue.
You have to accept these chapters and all the rest.

So, after taking all of scriptures, what does those passages tell you with regards those who have faith in Christ and are in Christ? Were they risen with Christ or not? If so, is that real or only in your mind? If it is real, would you agree that that is all over with and done, or not?

Tong
R2902

 

[Wrangler]

I will give you the one thing. It may surprise you.

Not being in Jesus Christ.

I don’t know who this post is directed to but the idea the OT emphasized obedience to God over and over again, Jesus being the ultimate manifestation of obedience to God but then obedience is irrelevant seems off.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, after taking all of scriptures, what does those passages tell you with regards those who have faith in Christ and are in Christ? Were they risen with Christ or not? If so, is that real or only in your mind? If it is real, would you agree that that is all over with and done, or not?

Tong
R2902

If you are asking if I have issues with these scriptures...I do not.
If you are asking if they prove OSAS...they do not.
You asked...If it is real, would you agree that that is all over with and done, or not?.
No. Not thing is over and done.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now, for the sake of argument, making that parable to support your view, consider the following implications, among others.

1. That God is one who after have granted forgiveness, will take it back.

2. That one’s forgiveness of sins will be taken back when one sins.

3. That one’s forgiveness of sins by God isn’t absolute and that God remembers one’s sins even after having forgiven them.

Those are only a few. What can you say about those?

Oh, I really don't care about the osas argument and whether or not one can lose the gift of salvation. I believe what I believe about it and you believe what you believe about it. What's important is that we both agree that you must remain in believing in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. I don't even care that you think that is accomplished in a different way than how I think it's accomplished. What matters is that we agree that only BELIEVERS will go into the kingdom when Christ comes back, not unbelievers who used to believe.

But anyway, just for fun....

1. As you know, I believe you lose the forgiveness of sin you have while a believer if you go back to unbelief. Christ's completed, but ongoing ministry of intercession (Hebrews 7:25) only applies to the person who is trusting in it, not the person who doesn't trust in it.

2. No, not taken back when one sins. Taken back when one goes back to unbelief. All sins are covered for the believer, not for the unbeliever.

3. Forgiveness of sin is absolute, as long as the gospel message remains in your heart. Guilt is reinstated if/when the believer goes back to unbelief. Because he no longer has the ministry of Christ to prevent sin guilt from exposing him to the wrath of the coming judgment.

<<<Oh, I really don't care about the osas argument and whether or not one can lose the gift of salvation.>>>

Then why all the many post under this thread arguing against the truth that one is ever safe in Christ Jesus?

<<<What's important is that we both agree that you must remain in believing in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.>>>

I haven’t agreed to that.

<<<What matters is that we agree that only BELIEVERS will go into the kingdom when Christ comes back, not unbelievers who used to believe.>>>

Yes, I agree that only believers will go to heaven.

I am not among those who hold the idea of true believers who later become unbelievers. What I hold to is that one is either a true believer or not.

<<<But anyway, just for fun....

1. As you know, I believe you lose the forgiveness of sin you have while a believer if you go back to unbelief. Christ's completed, but ongoing ministry of intercession (Hebrews 7:25) only applies to the person who is trusting in it, not the person who doesn't trust in it.>>>

Why suddenly just for fun? Well,...

1. That God is one who after have granted forgiveness, will take it back.

What you said there does not refute such implication that result from your misuse of the passage under consideration in our discussion here. By what you make out of the passage, God took back what forgiveness He have granted to the servant. So, if you will, please address that, perhaps by showing us here how that is not what the passage makes of God considering what you make of the passage that it supports your idea about one giving up the forgiveness of his sins.

<<<2. No, not taken back when one sins. Taken back when one goes back to unbelief. All sins are covered for the believer, not for the unbeliever.>>>

2. That one’s forgiveness of sins will be taken back when one sins.

But that is what you make out of the passage, that the servant’s forgiveness of his debts by his master, was revoked when he sinned against the other servant. Do you now take back your position? If so, that’s good. And so, it’s clear then that there is a misuse of that passage.

<<<3. Forgiveness of sin is absolute, as long as the gospel message remains in your heart. Guilt is reinstated if/when the believer goes back to unbelief. Because he no longer has the ministry of Christ to prevent sin guilt from exposing him to the wrath of the coming judgment.>>>

3. That one’s forgiveness of sins by God isn’t absolute and that God remembers one’s sins even after having forgiven them.

What you say there is quite contradictory. For if forgiveness of sins is absolute, then is done and no condition future to that will change it. What you say there seems to be that forgiveness of sins is not had by any Christian until the end of his earthly life, and only when he fulfills the condition you say. And that until then, his sins are really not yet been forgiven and not forgotten by God, so that, of one fails to comply with the condition you say, God will not forgive him and remember his all his sins against him. I know you know that this goes against the words and promise of God under the new testament.

Tong
R2903

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Shows where Paul said they have genuine faith in Christ. It seems to you that Paul knows the hearts of them. Did Paul have such power? Interesting.

now that you know God—or rather are known by God Galatians 4:9

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
​

And yet they fell away to 'another' gospel.

Any one could see in those scriptures that there is nothing in there where we can see or take Paul as saying they have genuine faith. That’s only your own conclusion.

In fact, if you had read carefully Galatians, you will find Paul as having doubts about them, not the entire Galatian church, but them who desire to be under the law.

Galatians 4:20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

See, Paul does not have the power of knowing for certain the hearts of men.

Tong
R2904

 

[Tong2020]

No I am not a spiritual Jew.

No I was made righteous by a God...the Son of God.

Christ's teaching are far superiors than any thing that the OT or the Mosaic Law had to offer. The Law has nothing to do with my relationship with God. The Law taught me nothing.

Very revealing about you indeed.

Tong
R2905

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What about Apollos?

I wondered if Apollos' experience might inform our understanding of John's teaching? Doesn't it say that Apollos was able to strongly defend the faith with nothing more than John's teaching?

Well, we could only know what scriptures tells us about Apollos. That he was a Jew, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, and that he had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. That is before he was taught by Aquila and Priscilla, more accurately about the way of God.

<<<Doesn't it say that Apollos was able to strongly defend the faith with nothing more than John's teaching?>>>

We are told that he was mighty in the scriptures, which refers to the OT scriptures. And he knew John’s baptism.

It does not say that Apollos was able to strongly defend the faith, if you are referring to the Christian faith. What we are told is that he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord. Now what these things he taught about the Lord could only he coming from what knowledge he have. And that is, from the OT scriptures and that which he supposedly learned from John and John’s baptism. Now we are told that he only knew of John’s baptism, that of repentance. If he knew only of that baptism, then he knew not of the Holy Spirit’s baptism.

Im short, we can see that John the baptist could not have taught much about the gospel concerning Jesus Christ. For obviously, John would not know of the works of Jesus until they were done. And John did not live to see and witness that. All we know that John knows is that the Messiah has come and that He is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and that He is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Now before John died, he was granted to come to the knowledge of the identity of the Messiah, that is, Jesus. So we can take Apollos as have been informed and taught that Jesus is the Christ, and that he believed. Though he knew that and believed that, he knows not really about the gospel concerning Jesus Christ. So, Aquila and Priscilla, having observed that about him, he was taught by them what is lacking in his knowledge about the way of the Lord. And we come to know later that he believed all that he was taught him by the two.

Tong
R2906

 

[Tong2020]

Amen!!

There is no fooling God. He knows right now what is in my heart. And He knows already exactly how the rest of my life is going to play out.

There's no scamming God, and, there is nothing to prove to God. He needs to prove to us about ourselvs. Not the other way.

Much love!

Yes, in truth God knows the heart of man (who are not in Christ). He told us plainly and clearly what is the heart of fallen mankind, a heart which every intent is continuously evil, even from his youth. Fallen mankind, with that heart and weakened by his body of flesh that Paul called as “body of death” and where sin made its dwelling, is in a state of death and as dead.

What can we expect from fallen mankind who are in that situation and have that heart? I could only expect him to be going to hell.

But we learn also from scriptures that God will save people whom He makes to be His people and adopt them to be His children, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and will give them the gift of eternal life.

Tong
R2907

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I will give you the one thing. It may surprise you.

Not being in Jesus Christ.

I don’t know who this post is directed to but the idea the OT emphasized obedience to God over and over again, Jesus being the ultimate manifestation of obedience to God but then obedience is irrelevant seems off.

That post was in response to Grailhunter’s post. He was asking a list of all the things that could prevent a Christian from going to heaven.

Do you disagree with my list?

Tong
R2908

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, after taking all of scriptures, what does those passages tell you with regards those who have faith in Christ and are in Christ? Were they risen with Christ or not? If so, is that real or only in your mind? If it is real, would you agree that that is all over with and done, or not?

If you are asking if I have issues with these scriptures...I do not.
If you are asking if they prove OSAS...they do not.
You asked...If it is real, would you agree that that is all over with and done, or not?.
No. Not thing is over and done.

Are you saying that the genuine Christian have not been raised with Christ, contrary to what scriptures says?

Tong
R2909

 

[Wrangler]

Do you disagree with my list?

I'm not sure what list you are referring to.

3. That one’s forgiveness of sins by God isn’t absolute and that God remembers one’s sins even after having forgiven them.

Not sure why you say that given Hebrews 8:12?


12 I will be merciful when they fail,
and I will erase their sins and wicked acts out of My memory
as though they had never existed.”
Hebrews 8:12 (VOICE)

 

[Tong2020]

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the genuine Christian.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, consider all of those truth about the genuine Christian, them who were born of God and see what becomes of the issues that confront the Christians today, such as the issue under this thread.

Tong
R2910

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you saying that the genuine Christian have not been raised with Christ, contrary to what scriptures says?

Tong
R2909

Died with Christ and raised with Christ...a God

 

[Grailhunter]

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the genuine Christian.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, consider all of those truth about the genuine Christian, them who were born of God and see what becomes of the issues that confront the Christians today, such as the issue under this thread.

Tong
R2910

Find the phrase genuine Christian in the Bible

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Do you disagree with my list?

I'm not sure what list you are referring to.

There is only one item on my list.

- Not being in Christ Jesus.

Tong2020 said: ↑
3. That one’s forgiveness of sins by God isn’t absolute and that God remembers one’s sins even after having forgiven them.

Not sure why you say that given Hebrews 8:12?


12 I will be merciful when they fail,
and I will erase their sins and wicked acts out of My memory
as though they had never existed.”
Hebrews 8:12 (VOICE)

Tell that to FerrisBueller.

You have to go back through the posts to see what that quote is all about. I am not saying that at all. I am sorry but it would take a lot of explaining what’s in that post. So if you want to get to the discussion between me and Ferris, you have to go back through the relevant posts.

Tong
R2911

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Are you saying that the genuine Christian have not been raised with Christ, contrary to what scriptures says?

Died with Christ and raised with Christ...a God

So there it is.

Tong
R2912

 

[Tong2020]

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the genuine Christian.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, consider all of those truth about the genuine Christian, them who were born of God and see what becomes of the issues that confront the Christians today, such as the issue under this thread.

Find the phrase genuine Christian in the Bible

Why? Do you have a problem with “genuine Christian”? How about “genuine faith”?

Regarding the list then, to whom do you say does scriptures say those about? To the false Christian or false brethren?

Tong
R2913