Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[bbyrd009]

Serious to me is starting to mean when I have need of my Bible!

ha, ya :)

 

[Helen]

<snip>
Second, I disagree with OSAS because I simply do not see it taught anywhere in Scripture. Rather, I see many Scriptures that warn believers about drifting away and the dangers of sin that can harden hearts and cause people to wander from the faith. The only passages I ever see quoted on this topic are found in John's gospel and Romans 9. I don't believe either of these books teach what OSAS proponents suggest. <snip>

Thank you very much for your gracious post , ( I have never looked at Calvinism..as I have said before I hate flying under someone's banner , but God's, so I know nothing of Calvin.)

You say that you see many scriptures about "drifting away" I do too.
But we see are seeing them differently, because I see them as warnings against losing our "high calling in Christ Jesus"... The "place" the Jesus went to prepare for me..I want to be there...not lose my footing and end up at the bottom of the elevator in the kingdom.
Jesus and Paul spoke of gifts and rewards. Many people don't like that being mentioned..there is always push back. But ,nevertheless like it or not, they are there. "Gifts and Rewards" are not referencing salvation...which we know if a free gift of God through Jesus Christ..to "whosoever will".
So , there we go...I believe in gifts and rewards because I see what Jesus and Paul write..you obviously believe as many do...that they mean our salvation. I believe God wants us His children to have all that He has laid up for us. Not lose out and enter the kingdom as empty poor beggars.

< snip> I wrote a lot more here...then I snipped it.
I am not trying to convince anyone..I just know what I believe. :)

I know we can pull this scripture and that scripture to 'prove our point'.
Obviously neither of us will move from our position. :)

Thank you for taking time to respond to my post.

Bless you...Helen

 

[Helen]

Could it be that OSAS could be motivated also by presumption?

Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience.

Thanks for response.
We obviously are not going to agree, but that okay...we don't have to.
The End will prove all things.

You said -"Could it be that OSAS could be motivated also by presumption?"

If you believe that when Jesus said to Peter "Come" and Peter stepped out of the boat and walked on water was presumption..then yes..that kind of presumption...presuming that what God says He says, He means.

Or the kind of presumption that caused Noah to build the Ark at the word of God..then yes. I always dare to presume that when God says something He actually means it. :)
Sorry, just couldn't resist ...

You also said:-
" Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience. "

Totally agree...no argument from me...

Bless you...H

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh... Wrong!

I was speaking of the Book of Life.

Why are you speaking of something else?

HUH??

We're talking about the Book of Life mentioned in Rev. 3:5.
Pay attention.

 

[bbyrd009]

Decision for individual men...
1) ignore any body or blood necessary for salvation to be effected FOR a man to be saved.
2) continue believing; obey the Law, animal sacrifice and animal blood, will suffice...for a man WHO, continues (endures) this method for all the days of his natural life.
3) accept Jesus' body and blood as the ultimate sacrifice and become immediately given Salvation, that Christ Keeps, the mans
Salvation secure For ever.
The man BEING Forgiven ONCE, SAVED ONCE and Forever.

confessionless salvation imo, and best of luck with it; of course i also understand that you do not perceive it that way, quite likely because you are not interested in abusing the concept in that manner, too, but
i cannot agree with any notions that Christ can be accepted with one's mouth, one time, for all time, and be of any effect,
absent future confession when one then needs to accomplish it, as Scripture dictates, confess your sins one to another; confession leads to salvation, etc.

Imo those who are in Christ no longer sin will then also be misinterpreted, changed into 'i am now a perfectionist/perfect" rather than
"i now understand how to practice Grace when i sin."

 

[bbyrd009]

misinterpreted, changed into

and don't get me wrong, this person is still perfect in a way;
they are perfectly manifesting what they sow, and they will perfectly reap from that;
only the fruit will now be ignored of necessity, as that is what "i am now saved no matter what" actually even means;
"don't pay attention to any fruit"

 

[bbyrd009]

Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience.

It isn't what we do that may see us lost, but our loss of faith in He who has already 'done'.

not sure how you might reconcile these two? ty

 

[Taken]

We weren't discussing the Pope.
We were discussing which church was around at the time of the Apostles.

I wasn't discussing Catholic history, I was discussing church history.

But, while we're here, the first Pope was elected in the 400's. Every bishop of Rome before then was given the title "Pope" so as to have uniformity. If a Catholic believes Peter was truly the first Pope, he is misinformed. Popes were really Bishops of Rome.

in fact, the first bishop of Rome to be contemporaneously referred to as Pope is Damasus I (366–84).[6]

source: History of the papacy - Wikipedia
(1.2)

Thanks,
God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Thank you very much for your gracious post , ( I have never looked at Calvinism..as I have said before I hate flying under someone's banner , but God's, so I know nothing of Calvin.)

You say that you see many scriptures about "drifting away" I do too.
But we see are seeing them differently, because I see them as warnings against losing our "high calling in Christ Jesus"... The "place" the Jesus went to prepare for me..I want to be there...not lose my footing and end up at the bottom of the elevator in the kingdom.
Jesus and Paul spoke of gifts and rewards. Many people don't like that being mentioned..there is always push back. But ,nevertheless like it or not, they are there. "Gifts and Rewards" are not referencing salvation...which we know if a free gift of God through Jesus Christ..to "whosoever will".
So , there we go...I believe in gifts and rewards because I see what Jesus and Paul write..you obviously believe as many do...that they mean our salvation. I believe God wants us His children to have all that He has laid up for us. Not lose out and enter the kingdom as empty poor beggars.

< snip> I wrote a lot more here...then I snipped it.
I am not trying to convince anyone..I just know what I believe. :)

I know we can pull this scripture and that scripture to 'prove our point'.
Obviously neither of us will move from our position. :)

Thank you for taking time to respond to my post.

Bless you...Helen

Hi Grace, yes, we do differ and with no harm to either of us. I believe in a conditional eternal security. There are many "ifs" associated with God's promises. Including those promises of life and eternity. One example is "if ye abide in Me....if not you will be cast forth as a branch and burned". I also believe in rewards, depending on our works. But who knows if they are taken away if we stop working? Might not those we have already earned remain intact?

 

[brakelite]

not sure how you might reconcile these two? ty

brakelite said: ↑
Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience.
brakelite said: ↑
It isn't what we do that may see us lost, but our loss of faith in He who has already 'done'.

I think the first one is self-explanatory. As to the second the way I understand our walk with Christ it goes like this. We are to walk by faith. Our justification that gives us the legal right to heaven and which redeemed us is accepted by faith, the sanctification that gives us our fitness for heaven is also received by faith. If however we are convicted of sin and we become aware of a habit or addiction which needs to be dealt with, we do not respond by 'obeying better' or in 'trying harder' in our own strength (which is not by faith but by power....scripture says "not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord" ) but by coming to Christ in faith...continuing to abide in the Vine in order to receive the life-giving power to overcome the weaknesses and shortcomings of our fleshly existence.
So if we fall away at all, it is initially because we refused to come to Christ in faith for that strength He freely offers and promises.
So although or abiding in sin or cherishing those things as idols will, in the end, preclude us from entering glory, the reason we did not overcome them is that we refused to believe in He who has already overcome on our behalf, coming to Him in faith and repentance that He may cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[amadeus]

I guess basically I am saying those who do Not believe in OSAS seem to stay Christians just because they are frightened of hell, if they don't do everything perfectly right, God will "un-save" them .

If a person really trusts in God until the end of his time in this veil of flesh then he is saved, once and for all. Hell should have no part in this. We should trust in God because we love Him. Has anyone who really loved someone ever stopped loving that someone? I am purposely not answering the question, because I cannot say I have had such an experience. I cannot speak for anyone else.

But those who believe in OSAS live and move free of that fear, they Trust God that their salvation is sure . Therefore their motivation is different.

Anyone who only serves God because they fear hell fire has a serious problem as I see it in any case. It is based on love alone: Love of God and love of neighbor.

You know that for 20 yrs of my christian life I believed that , I was always trying to be a better christian, more holy, more loving , more everything...but my motivation was through fear.

Definitely the wrong motivation. I remember my first Pentecostal pastor telling me repeatedly that if I did not get the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, I was going to hell.

*I believe that our love for God cannot be free and even honest, all the time we believe that we have to stay perfect to be saved.
We can still mouth that we love God...but why do we...because we are scared, not because we are free.

You have to love God and someone you love you have to trust. Trust God to be fair. Is He hateful vengeful God? Absolutely not, so what is there to fear? Remember the three Hebrews. They faces the fire, but they said simply:

"Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." Dan 3:16-18

Sounds to me like they trusted God without knowing whether or not they would be burned up. I would say that they loved God more than they feared the fire.

 

[Wormwood]

Helen,

I agree I do not want to argue with you, especially if your mind is made up on the matter. I am familiar with the texts your are referring to and I would disagree that contextually they are talking about rewards. Perhaps we can agree to disagree. :)

Oh, and also I don't mean to say you are a follower of "Calvin" and not Jesus when I refer to Calvinism. We have theological terms that simply indicate what stream of thought we fall into on any given subject. My point was simply that OSAS is based on a systematic theology centered on the sovereignty of God as the one who predetermines a persons salvation. So, regardless of of whether or not you buy into the system, that is how the concept was originally derived.

 

[brakelite]

We should trust in God because we love Him.

Not that I entirely disagree with the above premise, I think that we are more inclined to trust God when we have a deeper and experiential understanding of His love for us.

 

[Taken]

HUH??

We're talking about the Book of Life mentioned in Rev. 3:5.
Pay attention.

You pay attention.

I said; The Book of Life.
You said; The Lambs Book of Life.

As I was speaking of; The Book of Life...
AND spoke of: Every Born living man's name Enetered INTO ...The Book of Life.
uh they are ALIVE...There is a RECORD of their Life, having BEEN BORN, and LIVING.

That record Stands. They are JUDGED, out of "THAT" book for all their LIFE STOOD "FOR".

Their names WHO DID NOT "STAND" "FOR" Christ shall BE they who ARE BLOTTED OUT, of "The BOOK OF LIFE".

Then there is the; LAMBS BOOK of LIFE.
This BOOK contains the NAMES of those;
BORN AGAIN. These are the MEN WHO STOOD "FOR/WITH" the Lord and ARE SAVED.
Their names CAN NEVER BE BLOTTED OUT.

When a mans NAME is blotted OUT of "THE Book of Life"....His Name CAN NOT appear IN "THE Lambs Book of Life".

If you are going to attempt to argue with me, at least attempt to argue the SAME POINT!

I was Speaking of The Book of Life.
You Quickly Responded with emphasis that I was wrong.
You were replying with The Lambs Book of Life.
I was NOT wrong. You jumped to a conclusion without consideration of Scripture, that teaches there are more than ONE BOOK.

Men Who Overcome...Forever have their name IN the Book of Life...AND the Lambs BOOK of Life.
Rev 3:5

Men Who DO NOT Overcome...Shall have their name BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life.
Thus their name IS NO LONGER WRITTEN IN The Book of Life.
Rev 17:8

The Lambs Book of Life...is a "Little Book"
(Which Scripture teaches FEW shall be Saved)
Rev 10

Rev 20
Begins reinterating - "book(S)"...
Ie ANOTHER Book.

I was speaking of one Book, you another Book, and you called me Wrong.

I was speaking of one Book, you another Book, and you told me to PAY attention.

No, I was not Wrong concerning the Book I was speaking of.

Yes, I was fully aware there are MORE than ONE Book, and precisely why I asked you to BE specific, and you were perplexed, apparently unaware of more than ONE Book.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's already been told him.
He just says it false and then calls names.

God Bless,
Taken

You're right.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Really?

Can you point to ONE single "name" I've called you?
Point me to the post#.

Ummmmm, talk about "false" . . .

You've just called him a falsifier, AKA, LIAR!

 

[bbyrd009]

We should trust in God because we love Him.

Not that I entirely disagree with the above premise

?

"worship not, for I am with you."

 

[GodsGrace]

?

"worship not, for I am with you."

What verse is that?

 

[bbyrd009]

What verse is that?

"fear" can also be translated "worship." they mean the same thing
you worship what you fear

 

[GodsGrace]

"fear" can also be translated "worship." they mean the same thing
you worship what you fear

Never heard this.