Not Born with Sin Nature

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Adam wasn't born with a sin nature, but with free will. When he chose to sin he took on the nature of the serpent. And that is what we all have interited, except for the one born from the seed of the Father. And He is why those born again have died to their sin nature and have inherited the divine nature of Jesus. That is why we MUST be born again of the Spirit. Romans 8:9

First of all Adam the first Adam wasn't born he was created and God didn't create him with a sinful nature, but yes he created Adam in such a way that he could make free moral choices, meaning when God commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree he was capable of obeying that command.
Today we all are still born with a sinful nature. Much of our suffering results from our sinful nature, which both good and bad people have inherited. That sinful nature contributes to physical and mental disorders as well as traits that cause people to harm one another. In other words that sinful nature is why people get genetic disorders and people get viruses and diseases that people die from. All this was brought about because Adam and Eve sinned and brought death to themselves and their offspring. Death comes in many different forms, sickness, desease, genetic disorders, wars, violence, old age, accidents, etc.

It is not easy for imperfect humans to pursue righteousness. We must strip off the old personality with its sinful practices and put on the new one. The Bible says that the new personality is “being made new” through accurate knowledge. (Colossians 3:9, 10) The words “being made new” indicate that putting on the new personality is a continuing process, one that requires diligent effort. No matter how hard we try to do what is right, there are times when our sinful nature causes us to stumble in thought, word, or deed.Romans 7:14-20; James 3:2.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There are always one or two Scriptures that prove the truth of God and man:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Sin has passed upon all men is a lie.

Death has passed upon all men. Why? Because all have sinned, not because all were born with the sin nature after Adam.

Sinners are made by sinning, not by sin nature.

Jesus Christ, who has made all things, does not make souls with sin nor sinners on earth.

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This Scripture is God declaring all men being born with sin is a lie.

The sins of the father are not passed on to the son by sin nature, but by example of sins to commit.

Jesus tells His disciples not to love father or mother more than Himself, by choosing the example of a sinful father or mother to sin with.

We are not to hate father and mother for being born with their sin nature, after we become born of the Spirit, as though we no more have the sin nature of unsaved father or mother.

This nature that we were born with is rebellious from the start. Babies manipulate, lie, are selfish, disobedient before they can even talk. I just had my granddaughter spend a few days with us. She is 16 months old. She tests the boundaries constantly, does everything we tell her not to do. She fake cries to manipulate and get her way. She is smart and adorable but has this sin nature. No one taught them to behave like this.
Two boys playing and one breaks the lamp. The parent comes in - "What happened?" The one who did it points to the other younger boy and blames him. He lied and bared false witness.
A kid has a toy he hasn't played with for weeks but as soon as another kid picks it up, he wants it, cries ..."That's mine!" Or maybe he hits the kid too. Selfish all.
Have you experienced a child in that "terrible two's" stage, in the grocery store floor kicking and screaming? Did Mommy and Daddy teach him to do that?
And there are clear disciplinary actions to take to curtail a child who is out of control. "Spare the rod and spoil the child!" Oh no, we can't do that anymore ... just give him a time out ... Time to contemplate getting a gun and storming into his school and killing kids that made fun of him.
We were born with this natural selfish tendency, a sin nature. We are all like dirty rags and the dirt starts accumulating from birth. We are born into sin ... born sinners.

 

[Brakelite]

There are always one or two Scriptures that prove the truth of God and man:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Sin has passed upon all men is a lie.

Death has passed upon all men. Why? Because all have sinned, not because all were born with the sin nature after Adam.

Sinners are made by sinning, not by sin nature.

Jesus Christ, who has made all things, does not make souls with sin nor sinners on earth.

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This Scripture is God declaring all men being born with sin is a lie.

The sins of the father are not passed on to the son by sin nature, but by example of sins to commit.

Jesus tells His disciples not to love father or mother more than Himself, by choosing the example of a sinful father or mother to sin with.

We are not to hate father and mother for being born with their sin nature, after we become born of the Spirit, as though we no more have the sin nature of unsaved father or mother.

In other words, we are sinners because of what we do, not because of what we are. Sin is a state of doing, not a state of being.

 

[Brakelite]

The fallen nature we are all born comes with a propensity to sin... But doesn't guarantee we sin. We sin because we choose to. Not because our nature, the devil, or God demands it.

 

[robert derrick]

My statement is my correction. I have corrected you, because you cannot prove what is not true.

You error. The body of dust is not immortal, but returns to the dust in death (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and passes away (2 Peter 3:10).

You have not proved that immortals are born of women, nor that sin did not pass unto all men. On the contrary, you only prove your error:

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

As for death passing upon all men...you have misspoken. Sin did indeed pass upon all men, for all born of the flesh (of women) die:

• Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18
• for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

1. I have corrected you, because you cannot prove what is not true.

Scripture proves what is not true by stating what is true. Quoting the Scripture of truth to disprove a lie cannot be corrected, unless someone is correcting Scripture of God.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

2. "Since his transgression every living immortal soul made by God is born of a woman in a mortal body of flesh and blood."

You error. The body of dust is not immortal, but returns to the dust in death (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and passes away (2 Peter 3:10).

I say immortal souls are born today into mortal bodies, and I err, because Scripture shows mortal bodies return to dust?

You have no idea what you are talking about with others, because you have no idea what others are talking about.

3. You have not proved that immortals are born of women

Souls are made by God immortal spiritual beings, and are today born of women with mortal bodies. And you say that is not proven?

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you no idea what is the simple truth of Scripture and life in this world.

4. nor that sin did not pass unto all men.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Death has passed upon all men. Not sin. Sin only enters when man sins.

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you do not read Scripture as written.

4. "Pharisees taught men are born altogether in sins, not Scripture, which Jesus plainly corrected in John 9. The Pharisees and yourself hold to a tradition of men, not of God."

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

I say the Pharisees believed and taught the tradition that men are born in sins, and you say there is no such tradition mentioned.

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you don't read all that is written in Scripture.

5. As for death passing upon all men...you have misspoken.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

I quote Scripture that death passes upon all men, and you say I have misspoken.

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you have no idea what is written in Scripture.

6. Sin did indeed pass upon all men.

No Scripture says this, but only that death passes upon all men, when they sin.

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you say things not written in Scripture as though they were.

7. for all born of the flesh (of women) die:

All mortal bodies made of flesh have died, including that of Jesus, save two: Enoch and Elijah. And all mortal bodies will now continue to die save those saints remaining alive in mortal bodies on earth at the first resurrection of the blessed, at which time those mortal bodies shall be changed to immortal spiritual bodies in a moment of time.

And so we conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about, because you don't rightly divide the word of truth, which is because you don't read Scripture as written, and you don't read what is written in Scripture, and you say instead what is not written as though it were.

8. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Which proves that souls only die by sinning, not by being born into the world. Sin enters into the world by sinning, and so the wages of sinning is death, not the wages of being born into the world.

No soul dies by being born into the world as a babe, because no souls are born in sins, and there is no wage paid for being born. Your Pharisitical tradition that men are altogether born in sins is false, and like your Pharisee fathers you have no idea what you talking about, because like they, you nullify and wrest Scripture for the sake of their own tradition.

And since you agree in another post that you are still a depraved natural man and ongoing sinner on earth, which we all learned how to be after sinning on earth like Adam, then that explains why you are so clueless about the truth of God and man on earth in Scripture:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There is no sense in trying to engage willfully blind natural men and sinners in the spiritual truth of Scriptures, which they do not read all of, and what they do read, they do not read it as written, or just say something as it were written and is not.

But, since you are a case study in how not to read Scripture and how not to teach the things of God, then I am saving your stuff as evidence of how not to be in this life. Keep it coming. Thanks.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, we speak what we know.

?The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA?"

Yes, we speak what we know.

Can anyone please explain why there are self-confessed depraved natural men speaking what they know about being depraved natural men on a Christian website?

I mean, as Christians, we all know what that was like to be depraved natural men before being saved and delivered from it.

Are they trying to remind us of what we were, by showing us what they still are?

And they are also upset that Christians teachers are not reminding hearers of how depraved unsaved natural men are?

I always thought it was the depraved natural men that hear the gospel, and then get enraged about preaching against natural sinners bound for hell?

And there are Christians that say we should being lifting up Jesus more and running down sinners less.

And yet here they are running down their own naturalized depravity before the Christians.

It don't make sense to me.

 

[ScottA]

The sister believes she is sinless, already reached perfection and is hagios.
No, we are not on the same page Scott

Hmmm...that is not what I perceived from your scripture quoting.

The scriptures preach life to the dead and a need to persevere, but to the living that it is finished, that all things have been made new, old things have passed away. Unfortunately, many do not know who's child they carry and are therefore concerned of miscarry, and must wait and see.

This is that Woe of Christ for those who are pregnant or giving suck when He comes, that He might come before their eyes have fully developed that they should know the times.

 

[Johann]

Hmmm...that is not what I perceived from your scripture quoting.

The scriptures preach life to the dead and a need to persevere, but to the living that it is finished, that all things have been made new, old things have passed away. Unfortunately, many do not know who's child they carry and are therefore concerned of miscarry, and must wait and see.

This is that Woe of Christ for those who are pregnant or giving suck when He comes, that He might come before their eyes have fully developed that they should know the times.

I don't quite follow your train of thought here Scott..

 

[ScottA]

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

I say the Pharisees believed and taught the tradition that men are born in sins, and you say there is no such tradition mentioned.

You have no idea what you are talking about, because you don't read all that is written in Scripture.

Your quotes are all messed up--I mean, you are not using the quote feature so it cannot be determined who said what...so I will have to get back to you after sorting it out. You should really learn to use the quote feature.

I said there is no such tradition mentioned in John 9...because it does not mention a "tradition." That is your word, based on your misunderstanding...showing just who it is who really doesn't know what it is they are talking about.

The Pharisees did not misstate--you did. They knew the scriptures. What they did not know is that one must be born again of the spirit of God, which Christ was--therefore they were offended that He might teach them. So, no, there is no there there--no proof of your errored claim.

Christ however, by the spirit of God spoke not of a third need regarding the soul as you do, but only of the flesh and of the spirit, which unlike your own claims, concurs with the rest of scripture--those scriptures which I quoted for your correction.

 

[Johann]

I don't quite follow your train of thought here Scott..

 

[Johann]

?The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA?"

Yes, we speak what we know.

Can anyone please explain why there are self-confessed depraved natural men speaking what they know about being depraved natural men on a Christian website?

I mean, as Christians, we all know what that was like to be depraved natural men before being saved and delivered from it.

Are they trying to remind us of what we were, by showing us what they still are?

And they are also upset that Christians teachers are not reminding hearers of how depraved unsaved natural men are?

I always thought it was the depraved natural men that hear the gospel, and then get enraged about preaching against natural sinners bound for hell?

And there are Christians that say we should being lifting up Jesus more and running down sinners less.

And yet here they are running down their own naturalized depravity before the Christians.

It don't make sense to me.

This sounded like ranting and raving, don't even know who the heck post this...calm down a notch or two.

 

[ScottA]

?The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA?"

Yes, we speak what we know.

Can anyone please explain why there are self-confessed depraved natural men speaking what they know about being depraved natural men on a Christian website?

I mean, as Christians, we all know what that was like to be depraved natural men before being saved and delivered from it.

Are they trying to remind us of what we were, by showing us what they still are?

And they are also upset that Christians teachers are not reminding hearers of how depraved unsaved natural men are?

I always thought it was the depraved natural men that hear the gospel, and then get enraged about preaching against natural sinners bound for hell?

And there are Christians that say we should being lifting up Jesus more and running down sinners less.

And yet here they are running down their own naturalized depravity before the Christians.

It don't make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you because you took everything out of context...and don't seem to understand that context even matters.

It does matter.

If one speaks of the flesh, that man of sin, or the gospels do--and they do...it is one context.

If one speaks of the new man born of the spirit of God--and the gospels do also...the two are not mixed even when they come in the same message--because they are comparing or addressing them in contrast, and they are each in their own context. That is why the word of truth must be rightly divided. And if one does not know this gospel truth and accuses his brothers of wrong for his own misunderstanding...woe, unto that man.

 

[ScottA]

I don't quite follow your train of thought here Scott..

The things of God do not happen according to or in the order of men, "each in his own order."

Thus, it is on us to perceive the times...and given the times we are now in, we should perceive that they are after those acts of God which He "has" made for salvation in His time rather than our own. And just as it was right and correct for Christ and the Spirit to refer to those things as "before the foundation of the world", it is now in our times that it is right and correct to refer to them as before also--and not after our our own times or after the end. Therefore it is wrong for men to look to their own times for matters of God, but rather to look to God for what is correct, which is the order that He has accomplished it. So, if we look to what appears to be ongoing sin in the life of one who believes He is otherwise saved and born of the spirit of God--he is not right and God wrong, but the other way around. Does a man's own logic toward his own understanding of the times win out over that of God's? Certainly not. Such a one should consider himself a liar, and turn to God for an answer that agrees with God's timing rather than his own...and arguing with a brother about ones own inability to perceive the times, is foolishness upon foolishness.

Only believe.

 

[Johann]

The things of God do not happen according to or in the order of men, "each in his own order."

Thus, it is on us to perceive the times...and given the times we are now in, we should perceive that they are after those acts of God which He "has" made for salvation in His time rather than our own. And just as it was right and correct for Christ and the Spirit to refer to those things as "before the foundation of the world", it is now in our times that it is right and correct to refer to them as before also--and not after our our own times or after the end. Therefore it is wrong for men to look to their own times for matters of God, but rather to look to God for what is correct, which is the order that He has accomplished it. So, if we look to what appears to be ongoing sin in the life of one who believes He is otherwise saved and born of the spirit of God--he is not right and God wrong, but the other way around. Does a man's own logic toward his own understanding of the times win out over that of God's? Certainly not. Such a one should consider himself a liar, and turn to God for an answer that agrees with God's timing rather than his own...and arguing with a brother about ones own inability to perceive the times, is foolishness upon foolishness.

Only believe.

Rom 11:33 O the deepenesse of the riches, both of the wisdome, and knowledge of God! howe vnsearcheable are his iudgements, and his wayes past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath knowen the minde of the Lord? or who was his counsellour?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath giuen vnto him first, and he shalbe recompensed?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for euer. Amen.

..wonder how you "know" the times?

 

[Johann]

Rom 11:33 O the deepenesse of the riches, both of the wisdome, and knowledge of God! howe vnsearcheable are his iudgements, and his wayes past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath knowen the minde of the Lord? or who was his counsellour?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath giuen vnto him first, and he shalbe recompensed?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for euer. Amen.

..wonder how you "know" the times?

11:33 {17} O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his {g} judgments, and his {h} ways past finding out!
(17) The apostle cries out as one astonished with this wonderful wisdom of God, which he teaches us to revere in a religious manner, and not curiously and profanely to be searched beyond the boundary of that which God has revealed unto us.
(g) The course that he holds in governing all things both generally and particularly.
(h) The order of his counsels and doings.
11:34 {18} For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(18) He bridles the wicked boldness of man in three ways: firstly, because God is above all most wise, and therefore it is very absurd and plainly godless to measure him by our folly. Secondly, because he is debtor to no man, and therefore no man can complain of injury done to him. Thirdly, because all things are made for his glory, and therefore we must ascribe all things to his glory, much less may we contend and debate the matter with him.
11:35 Or who hath {i} first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(i) This saying overthrows the doctrine of foreseen works and merits.

Interesting how you respond to me without quoting scripture.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Can any theologian explain to me just why a theologian would choose a former porn star turned movie icon as an avatar? Just sayin'....

And how do YOU know they were a former porn star? ;)

LOL You left yourself wide open for that question...

 

[robert derrick]

Your quotes are all messed up--I mean, you are not using the quote feature so it cannot be determined who said what...so I will have to get back to you after sorting it out. You should really learn to use the quote feature.

I said there is no such tradition mentioned in John 9...because it does not mention a "tradition." That is your word, based on your misunderstanding...showing just who it is who really doesn't know what it is they are talking about.

The Pharisees did not misstate--you did. They knew the scriptures. What they did not know is that one must be born again of the spirit of God, which Christ was--therefore they were offended that He might teach them. So, no, there is no there there--no proof of your errored claim.

Christ however, by the spirit of God spoke not of a third need regarding the soul as you do, but only of the flesh and of the spirit, which unlike your own claims, concurs with the rest of scripture--those scriptures which I quoted for your correction.

The Pharisees did not misstate--you did. They knew the scriptures.

The Pharisees justified themselves to cast out the man's witness of Jesus, by declaring he was altogether born in sins.

And you defend them. Because you honor the Pharisees as true teachers of Scripture.

Incredible.

The only place in Scripture, where such a doctrine is plainly stated, and is used to reject a man's witness of Jesus, is by the Pharisees, and you agree with them.

You really have no clue what you are saying and doing in order to defend your fathers' tradition, that newborn babes are altogether born in sins.

Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Neither you nor your fathers know the Scriptures. They had the oracles of God in their possession only, even as you have the Bible.

But you both teach your own tradition, not what is written in Scripture: you don't know Scripture, but only what you want to believe about it.

Your example here proves how truly blind you and your fathers are. You do not wrest Scripture to teach false tradition on purpose.

You do it because you really believe your own lies, and no Scripture can possibly correct you, because your lies are God's truth to you.

Scripture says: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

And you say sin passed upon all men. And you can't even fathom how you misquote what is written, in order to believe what is not.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You DO sin...that's the problem

Can't you see that false teachers teach what the natural man does - they sin. But not when you are born again with the Spirit. The problem is, those teachers teach what they've experienced, and because they have NOT been born again, they can't teach the truth spoken plainly in scripture in 1 John 3, and Romans 6 and 8, and many more they can't relate to. Now who do you relate to? The false teachers that teach what your own experience has been like, or those born again of the Spirit who can see clearly. You say I sin. That is because you don't know any other way to live. You haven't experienced the supernatural power of God changing you. All you know is facts about Jesus, but when you abide in Him, and He abides in you, you can't sin.

 

[Johann]

Can't you see that false teachers teach what the natural man does - they sin. But not when you are born again with the Spirit. The problem is, those teachers teach what they've experienced, and because they have NOT been born again, they can't teach the truth spoken plainly in scripture in 1 John 3, and Romans 6 and 8, and many more they can't relate to. Now who do you relate to? The false teachers that teach what your own experience has been like, or those born again of the Spirit who can see clearly. You say I sin. That is because you don't know any other way to live. You haven't experienced the supernatural power of God changing you. All you know is facts about Jesus, but when you abide in Him, and He abides in you, you can't sin.

From now on I am going to be very selective in dialogue.
Can you prove the Reformed doctrines wrong? Not even the scriptures agree with what you are believing Sister.
Shalom
J.

 

[ScottA]

..wonder how you "know" the times?

11:33 {17} O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his {g} judgments, and his {h} ways past finding out!
(17) The apostle cries out as one astonished with this wonderful wisdom of God, which he teaches us to revere in a religious manner, and not curiously and profanely to be searched beyond the boundary of that which God has revealed unto us.
(g) The course that he holds in governing all things both generally and particularly.
(h) The order of his counsels and doings.
11:34 {18} For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(18) He bridles the wicked boldness of man in three ways: firstly, because God is above all most wise, and therefore it is very absurd and plainly godless to measure him by our folly. Secondly, because he is debtor to no man, and therefore no man can complain of injury done to him. Thirdly, because all things are made for his glory, and therefore we must ascribe all things to his glory, much less may we contend and debate the matter with him.
11:35 Or who hath {i} first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(i) This saying overthrows the doctrine of foreseen works and merits.

Interesting how you respond to me without quoting scripture.

If I speak no one should trust or believe me, even if that seems to be the practice for most. But if I am silent in church as the bride is commanded, and it is not I who speaks but Him who was sent and called to speak--who then shall He quote, Himself? Oh, and He does, as you heard from me.

But if He does not quote, for every word from God is not a quote--it is a proclamation.

Thus, those who hear, hear, and those who do not, hear not.

Nonetheless, the church was founded upon what it receives from the Father, and not by flesh and blood. That is the answer to your question...and if you have heard it from Him already, from whom it came, I have no need to use quotations.