Not Born with Sin Nature

[Johann]

J, don't think on lust, obey Isaiah 26:3

You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.

Start memorizing verses of the Truth about Jesus taking away our sin (even the source of sin, the carnal flesh (nature), and not listening to famous teachers for itching ears justifying mankind's weaknesses. Believe Jesus, not the opposite doctrines of demons.

Trust the gospel. Romans 1:16 The power of God. You can be sinless. You can be perfect. You can be holy if you follow the Spirit and walk in Him forever.

This sounds strange, since the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are clothed with the garments of salvation..Genitive of Possession...this does not make us holy, sinless and perfect in word thought and deed Sister..what is the scriptures teaching us when we stand before the Judgement seat of Christ?
Blessings
J.

 

[robert derrick]

Thing is: There really ought to be a few more than that, usually.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

I have found there are always a couple of Scriptures God writes into His word, by which He perfectly proves truth of His doctrine, and condemns the lies of false doctrine, so that any effort to argue around them exposes them that seek their own teachings and traditions, rather than the truth of God and man.

Ex:
1. The Word was God puts to rest any lie that Jesus Christ was not,a nd is not God.
2. Matthew 1:25 says Joseph knew not Mary, until she had her firstborn son, puts to rest any lie that Mary stayed a virgin and never had more children by Joseph. She remained a virgin until...and Jesus was only her firstborn child.

The point being that God has seen every lie against His word that the devil would make and man would believe.

The two Scriptures I have provided prove to any normal reader that all men became sinners, for that all have sinned, not for that all have been born of sin.

Simplicity of Scripture is that we only become sinners when we commit sin, not by any birth with sin nature.

And Christians once delivered form their past sins, who go on to sin again, make themselves sinners and transgressors again. (Gal 2:18)

Once these proof or foundation verses are made known, then many other Scriptures will also come to confirm the same, like perfectly fit stones of a true wall.

Such as Jesus declaring plainly no man is born blind, because of the sins of their parents, while it is only the Pharisees that preached men being born altogether in sins. (John 9:34)

 

[robert derrick]

Incorrect...


Question
Is everyone born a sinner?

Answer


Yes, the Bible teaches all, except Christ (who was born of a virgin), were / are born as sinners.


This doctrine is sometimes called "total depravity" or "total inability." Everyone of us has a sinful nature that affects every part of our being (Isa. 53:6; Rom. 3:23; 6:23; 7:14). In this state, none can please holy God (Rom. 3:10-18; 8:7-8).

All humanity, except Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:31), is born with a sinful nature which was inherited from Adam (Rom. 5:12-19). "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12). So, every one of us was affected by Adam's sin. There are no exceptions; "one trespass led to condemnation for all men" (Rom. 5:18). We are all children of Adam (Acts 17:26), thus all share in the same condemnation.

We observe that everyone has a sin nature taught over and over again in Scripture:



Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. /p>

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?



So, by nature we are the children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

Because of our sinful nature and our very sinful and corrupt actions we deserve the wrath of holy God. We are the enemies of God (Rom. 5:10; Col. 1:21; Jas. 4:4). We can't please God (Rom. 8:7-8). All people are by nature 'foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another' (Tit. 3:3). To put it another way, we are spiritually blind, deaf, dumb, having withered hands and crippled spiritual limbs (cf. Matt. 13:15). We are dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1). So, we lack any inherent spiritual good.

However, this total corruption does not mean we are as evil and bad as we could be. Everyone is not as bad as Judas, Stalin, Hitler, or Bin Laden.

God's common grace restrains the full expression of our human sinfulness. In common grace, God shows his compassion, goodness, and kindness to all his creatures (Psa. 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 14:17). He exercises longsuffering / patience toward all mankind (Nah. 1:3). Every breath that the wicked take is an example of God's loving mercy. In common grace, God kept Abimelech from touching Sarah, Abraham's wife (Gen. 20:6). God also restrained David from taking revenge on Nabal (1 Sam. 25:14, 26). As David stated, "For as surely as the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, who has restrained me from hurting you, unless you had hurried and come to meet me, truly by morning there had not been left to Nabal so much as one male" (1 Sam. 25:34).

This brief examination of total depravity above reveals the reason why one must be born again (John 3:1-8). All of us were born in Adam and to please God and no longer be his enemy (Rom. 5:1, 9) one must be born into God's family where we are given a new nature that seeks after God (John 1:12-13). As Paul wrote, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Cor. 5:17; cf. Ezek. 11:19; 18:31; 36:26; Jer. 24:7; 2 Cor. 3:3; Gal. 6:15). Have you been born again? (John 3:3, 5).

Answer by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.

'Incorrect' is not an answer, and so the teaching still stands.

Sinners may continue to preach their traditional excuse for their sins all they wish, which begins and concludes with a lie:

Yes, the Bible teaches all, except Christ (who was born of a virgin), were / are born as sinners.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The first Adam was born of God, not of sin nor in sins.

And so we see how people believe and teach obvious lies, because they don't account for all Scripture in order to do so.

were / are born as sinners.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. (John 9)

In Scripture, only the Pharisees, and other tradition lovers, taught and teach that man is born in sins as sinners. Jesus rebuked it saying man is not born with the sin of the parents, as people suppose.

Scripture teaches Jesus is the only man born of a virgin, not the only man born without sin, which is a made up lie of traditional sinners.

And Scripture plainly states that the virgin birth was only for a sign prophesied by God to show He did not need man, but only a woman, to accomplish His will and be made flesh on earth.

It was not because the physical seed of man, nor any creature on earth is sinful, much less 'totally depraved'.

Sinning sinners such as yourself love the traditional lie of being born totally depraved, because it makes doing unrighteousness in less-than-totally-depraved ways more justifiable to themselves.

"I mean, it's not like I'm a murderer or something."

(P.s. Your Nally-pal is an idiot.)

 

[Johann]

'Incorrect' is not an answer, and so the teaching still stands.

You may continue to preach your traditional excuse for your sins all you wish, which begins with a lie:

Yes, the Bible teaches all, except Christ (who was born of a virgin), were / are born as sinners.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The first Adam was born of God, not of sin nor in sins.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. (John 9)

Only the Pharisees in Scripture taught man is born in sins as sinners. Jesus rebuked it saying man is not born with the sin of the parents, as people suppose.

Jesus is the only man born of a virgin.

Which was a sign and miracle prophesied by God to show He did not need man, but only a woman to accomplish His will and be made flesh on earth.

It was not because the physical seed of man, nor any creature on earth is sinful, much less 'totally depraved'.

Sinning sinners such as yourself love the traditional lie of being born totally depraved, because it makes doing unrighteousness in less than totally depraved ways more justifiable to themselves.

"I mean, it's not like I'm a murderer or something."

(P.s. Your Nally-pal is an idiot.)

חכם־לב יקח מצות ואויל שׂפתים ילבט׃

 

[Bob Estey]

There are always one or two Scriptures that prove the truth of God and man:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Sin has passed upon all men is a lie.

Death has passed upon all men. Why? Because all have sinned, not because all were born with the sin nature after Adam.

Sinners are made by sinning, not by sin nature.

Jesus Christ, who has made all things, does not make souls with sin nor sinners on earth.

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This Scripture is God declaring all men being born with sin is a lie.

The sins of the father are not passed on to the son by sin nature, but by example of sins to commit.

Jesus tells His disciples not to love father or mother more than Himself, by choosing the example of a sinful father or mother to sin with.

We are not to hate father and mother for being born with their sin nature, after we become born of the Spirit, as though we no more have the sin nature of unsaved father or mother.

I am not all-knowing, but it seems to me that our disobedience to God creates a desire to sin more - we create our own sin nature.

 

[robert derrick]

So then, if you are correct (and you most certainly are not), there are immortals born of women who are not under the sentence of death.

Prove it.

Or stand corrected.

if you are correct

I.e. you can't yet correct.

there are immortals born of women

The first living and immortal soul was born of God in an immortal body of dust. (Gen 2) (Luke 3:38)

Since his transgression every living immortal soul made by God is born of a woman in a mortal body of flesh and blood.

Souls are still 'immortals', no more being in immortal physical bodies on earth, until the first resurrection of the blessed to reign with the Lord on earth with rod of iron.

who are not under the sentence of death.

What does the Scripture say? That sin passed upon all men? No.

That death passes upon all men. How?

For that all have sinned. Not for that all have been born of sin, in sin, nor with sin.

Pharisees taught men are born altogether in sins, not Scripture, which Jesus plainly corrected in John 9. The Pharisees and yourself hold to a tradition of men, not of God.

(and you most certainly are not)

Prove it.

Or stand corrected.

 

[robert derrick]

I am not all-knowing, but it seems to me that our disobedience to God creates a desire to sin more - we create our own sin nature.

By Jove, I think he's got it. And thank you very much, because you lead to an answer I've been looking for.

1. The more we do, the more we do naturally:

Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Whether unto the Lord to do righteousness or unto the devil to commit sin.

2. We make ourselves what we do.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Souls born into the world make themselves sinners by sinning.

Christians that return to sin make themselves sinners again.

3. The more we do, the more natural we become doing it:

Natural man naturally sins, because he does so naturally.

He becomes by nature the children of wrath. (Eph 2:3)

4. And being by nature what we do is by doing, not by natural birth:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

And so it is proven by Scripture, that by nature is not by birth, but by doing naturally, even as the children of circumcision naturally circumcise their children.

The circumcision by nature were not circumcision by natural birth, but by naturally being circumcised: they were not born circumcised.

No man can be born circumcised in the flesh, nor can any soul made by God be born sinful in sin.

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

Jews were not naturally born Jews, but became Jews by being circumcised according to the law.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.

In the OT, he was not a Jew by birth, but by circumcision of the flesh, even as Abraham was not in covenant with God by birth, but with circumcision.

And now in the NT, no man is a Jew neither by birth nor by circumcision of the flesh, but only by circumcision of the heart.

Thanks much Bob.

Robert

 

[BarneyFife]

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

I have found there are always a couple of Scriptures God writes into His word, by which He perfectly proves truth of His doctrine, and condemns the lies of false doctrine, so that any effort to argue around them exposes them that seek their own teachings and traditions, rather than the truth of God and man.

Ex:
1. The Word was God puts to rest any lie that Jesus Christ was not,a nd is not God.
2. Matthew 1:25 says Joseph knew not Mary, until she had her firstborn son, puts to rest any lie that Mary stayed a virgin and never had more children by Joseph. She remained a virgin until...and Jesus was only her firstborn child.

The point being that God has seen every lie against His word that the devil would make and man would believe.

The two Scriptures I have provided prove to any normal reader that all men became sinners, for that all have sinned, not for that all have been born of sin.

Simplicity of Scripture is that we only become sinners when we commit sin, not by any birth with sin nature.

And Christians once delivered form their past sins, who go on to sin again, make themselves sinners and transgressors again. (Gal 2:18)

Once these proof or foundation verses are made known, then many other Scriptures will also come to confirm the same, like perfectly fit stones of a true wall.

Such as Jesus declaring plainly no man is born blind, because of the sins of their parents, while it is only the Pharisees that preached men being born altogether in sins. (John 9:34)

Thing is: There really ought to be a few more than that, usually.

Human children are conceived with a propensity for sin, and without developed reasoning powers, they come out with a few months of selfishness already under their belts--not inherited sin.

There is a difference between proof and evidence.

The Holy Spirit impresses different people with different Scripture passages.

Sometimes they even come to different conclusions!

That's John 9:3 and it's not about original sin. Sin causes disease in offspring. I think that's a pretty well-known fact. What Jesus was saying is that the disciples were focusing on the wrong thing.

The key is to find more than enough evidence to convince yourself, so you'll have an easier time convincing others, don't you think?

 

[Johann]

By Jove, I think he's got it. And thank you very much, because you lead to an answer I've been looking for.

1. We make ourselves what we do.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Souls born into the world make themselves sinners by sinning.

Christians that return to sin make themselves sinners again.

2. The more we do, the more natural we become doing it:

Natural man naturally sins, because he does so naturally.

He becomes by nature the children of wrath. (Eph 2:3)

3. And being by nature what we do is by doing, not by natural birth:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

And so it is proven by Scripture, that by nature is not by birth, but by doing naturally, even as the children of circumcision naturally circumcise their children.

The circumcision by nature were not circumcision by natural birth, but by naturally being circumcised: they were not born circumcised.

No man can be born circumcised in the flesh, nor can any soul made by God be born sinful in sin.

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

Jews were not naturally born Jews, but became Jews by being circumcised according to the law.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.

In the OT, he was not a Jew by birth, but by circumcision of the flesh, even as Abraham was not in covenant with God by birth, but with circumcision.

And now in the NT, no man is a Jew neither by birth nor by circumcision of the flesh, but only by circumcision of the heart.

Thanks much Bob.

Robert

You have to rethink, this time with the right lenses, your whole theology
J.

 

[robert derrick]

Thing is: There really ought to be a few more than that, usually.

Human children are conceived with a propensity for sin, and without developed reasoning powers, they come out with a few months of selfishness already under their belts--not inherited sin.

There is a difference between proof and evidence.

The Holy Spirit impresses different people with different Scripture passages.

Sometimes they even come to different conclusions!

That's John 9:3 and it's not about original sin. Sin causes disease in offspring. I think that's a pretty well-known fact. What Jesus was saying is that the disciples were focusing on the wrong thing.

The key is to find more than enough evidence to convince yourself, so you'll have an easier time convincing others, don't you think?

Thing is: There really ought to be a few more than that, usually.

I have done so with other Scriptures. Proof verses will not be the only ones supporting the teaching, or exposing a lie, but are undeniable in what they are saying, such as the Word was God.

Until someone can correct the Scriptural reading offered, then the teaching is true.

Human children are conceived with a propensity for sin.

And this remains merely humanist ideology, until you can show the proof Scriptures not to be saying what they are saying to me.

There is a difference between proof and evidence.

True, which is why many Scriptures are evidence of the truth, but God always has a couple of Scriptures to plainly state the truth, which the other Scriptures support and confirm.

I have offered several to prove the doctrine of Christ, that sin enters into the world by men sinning, not by natural birth. It did not with Adam, nor does it with the children of Adam.

The Holy Spirit impresses different people with different Scripture passages. Sometimes they even come to different conclusions!

Which is true. There are many valid personal interpretations of Scripture, that people can justly apply in their personal lives, but the truth and doctrine of Christ is not variable according to differing beliefs about them, such as:

The Word was God, and all men have become sinners, for that all have sinned.

That's John 9:3 and it's not about original sin. Sin causes disease in offspring.

Yes it is talking about sin, and not inherited bodily deformity:

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

The belief in sin being passed on by natural birth is already presumed, which is why the question about who sinned. Jesus and Scripture both say no:

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Neither sins nor sin is passed on by birth to be borne by the offspring.

And it is the Pharisees of men's traditions that teaches being altogether born in sin, not Scripture of truth.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

The key is to find more than enough evidence to convince yourself, so you'll have an easier time convincing others, don't you think?

The point of posting is because it is already proven enough to convince me, and the more I read other Scripture in that light, the more proven it becomes. And I have provided to you much reasoning and explanation for it, even repeating myself.

I have only taken this much time with you, because you are speaking discreetly and honestly, and I do want to hear any real objections to have to the reading of these Scriptures I offer.

So until you do so, just repeating what I used to belief doesn't do it.

You see, I don't try to 'convince' anyone of anything, but only offer what I have, and only seek them that can either refute it or add to it.

Being convinced is the issue of others, not mine.

 

[ScottA]

if you are correct

I.e. you can't yet correct.

My statement is my correction. I have corrected you, because you cannot prove what is not true.

there are immortals born of women

The first living and immortal soul was born of God in an immortal body of dust. (Gen 2) (Luke 3:38)

Since his transgression every living immortal soul made by God is born of a woman in a mortal body of flesh and blood.

Souls are still 'immortals', no more being in immortal physical bodies on earth, until the first resurrection of the blessed to reign with the Lord on earth with rod of iron.

You error. The body of dust is not immortal, but returns to the dust in death (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and passes away (2 Peter 3:10).

You have not proved that immortals are born of women, nor that sin did not pass unto all men. On the contrary, you only prove your error:

who are not under the sentence of death.

What does the Scripture say? That sin passed upon all men? No.

That death passes upon all men. How?

For that all have sinned. Not for that all have been born of sin, in sin, nor with sin.

Pharisees taught men are born altogether in sins, not Scripture, which Jesus plainly corrected in John 9. The Pharisees and yourself hold to a tradition of men, not of God.

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

As for death passing upon all men...you have misspoken. Sin did indeed pass upon all men, for all born of the flesh (of women) die:

• Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18
• for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

[Johann]

My statement is my correction. I have corrected you, because you cannot prove what is not true.

You error. The body of dust is not immortal, but returns to the dust in death (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and passes away (2 Peter 3:10).

You have not proved that immortals are born of women, nor that sin did not pass unto all men. On the contrary, you only prove your error:

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

As for death passing upon all men...you have misspoken. Sin did indeed pass upon all men, for all born of the flesh (of women) die:

• Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18
• for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

My statement is my correction. I have corrected you, because you cannot prove what is not true.

You error. The body of dust is not immortal, but returns to the dust in death (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and passes away (2 Peter 3:10).

You have not proved that immortals are born of women, nor that sin did not pass unto all men. On the contrary, you only prove your error:

There is no such tradition mentioned in John 9.

As for death passing upon all men...you have misspoken. Sin did indeed pass upon all men, for all born of the flesh (of women) die:

• Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18
• for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

"through the sin of the first man (say they (g)) אתה מת, "thou art dead"; for he brought death into the world:''
nothing is more frequently said by them than that Adam and Eve, through the evil counsel of the serpent, גרימו מותא לון ולכל עלמא, "were the cause of death to themselves and to all the world" (h); and that through the eating of the fruit of the tree, כל דיירי ארעא אתחייבו מותא, "all the inhabitants of the earth became guilty of death" (i): and that this was not merely a corporeal death, they gather from the doubling of the word in the threatening, "in dying thou shalt die", Gen_2:17 (margin);
"this doubled death, say they (k), without doubt is the punishment of their body by itself, ולנפש בפני עצמה, and also of the "soul by itself".''
They speak of some righteous persons who died, not for any sin of their own, but purely on the account of Adam's sin; as Benjamin the son of Jacob, Amram the father of Moses, and Jesse the father of David, and Chileab the son of David (l), to these may be added Joshua the son of Nun, and Zelophehad and Levi: the corruption and pollution of human nature through the sin of Adam is clearly expressed by them;
"when Adam sinned, (say they (m),) he "drew upon him a defiled power, וסאיב ליה ולכל בני עלמא, "and defiled himself and all the people of the "world".''
Again (n),
"this vitiosity which comes from the sin and infection of our first parents, has invaded both faculties of the rational soul, the understanding by which we apprehend, and the will by which we desire.''
This corruption of nature they call יצר הרע, "the evil imagination", which, they say (o), is planted in a man's heart at the time of his birth; and others say (p) that it is in him before he is born: hence Philo the Jew says (q), that συμφυες το αμαρτανον εστι, "to sin is connatural", to every man that is born, even though a good man; and talks (r) of συγγεγηνηνον κουκον, "evil that is born with us", and of (s) συγγενεις κηρες, "spots that are of necessity born with" every mortal man. And so his countrymen (t) often speak of it as natural and inseparable to men; yea, they represent Adam as the root and head of mankind, in whom the whole world and all human nature sinned: descanting on those words, "as one that lieth upon the top of a mast", Pro_23:34;
"this (say they (u)) is the first man who was לכל בני אדם ראש, "an head to all the children of men": for by means of wine death was inflicted on him, and he was the cause of bringing the sorrows of death into the world.''
And in another place, speaking of Adam, they say (w), that
"he was עיקר בריאה של עולם, "the root of the creation", or "of the men of the world"; and death was inflicted upon him and on his seed, because he sinned one sin in eating of the tree.''
And it is observed,
"that הא הידיעה, the "He" demonstrative is not prefixed in Scripture to proper names, which yet is to the word "Adam"; the reason is, (say they (x),) because in Adam all his posterity are pointed at, and the whole human species designed.''
Again, they observe (y), that
"the end of man is to die, of which this is the reason, because מין האדם, "mankind" has sinned; that is, the nature of which he is composed, or in other words, Adam and Eve have sinned.''
Once more (z).
"when he (Adam) sinned, כל העולם כלו חטא, "all the whole world sinned", and his sin we bear;''
and (a) that
"the whole congregation of Israel have need of atonement for the sin of the first Adam, for he was חשוב ככל העדה, reckoned as the whole congregation;''
which exactly tallies with the apostle's assertion in this text.

 

[ScottA]

"through the sin of the first man (say they (g)) אתה מת, "thou art dead"; for he brought death into the world:''
nothing is more frequently said by them than that Adam and Eve, through the evil counsel of the serpent, גרימו מותא לון ולכל עלמא, "were the cause of death to themselves and to all the world" (h); and that through the eating of the fruit of the tree, כל דיירי ארעא אתחייבו מותא, "all the inhabitants of the earth became guilty of death" (i): and that this was not merely a corporeal death, they gather from the doubling of the word in the threatening, "in dying thou shalt die", Gen_2:17 (margin);
"this doubled death, say they (k), without doubt is the punishment of their body by itself, ולנפש בפני עצמה, and also of the "soul by itself".''
They speak of some righteous persons who died, not for any sin of their own, but purely on the account of Adam's sin; as Benjamin the son of Jacob, Amram the father of Moses, and Jesse the father of David, and Chileab the son of David (l), to these may be added Joshua the son of Nun, and Zelophehad and Levi: the corruption and pollution of human nature through the sin of Adam is clearly expressed by them;
"when Adam sinned, (say they (m),) he "drew upon him a defiled power, וסאיב ליה ולכל בני עלמא, "and defiled himself and all the people of the "world".''
Again (n),
"this vitiosity which comes from the sin and infection of our first parents, has invaded both faculties of the rational soul, the understanding by which we apprehend, and the will by which we desire.''
This corruption of nature they call יצר הרע, "the evil imagination", which, they say (o), is planted in a man's heart at the time of his birth; and others say (p) that it is in him before he is born: hence Philo the Jew says (q), that συμφυες το αμαρτανον εστι, "to sin is connatural", to every man that is born, even though a good man; and talks (r) of συγγεγηνηνον κουκον, "evil that is born with us", and of (s) συγγενεις κηρες, "spots that are of necessity born with" every mortal man. And so his countrymen (t) often speak of it as natural and inseparable to men; yea, they represent Adam as the root and head of mankind, in whom the whole world and all human nature sinned: descanting on those words, "as one that lieth upon the top of a mast", Pro_23:34;
"this (say they (u)) is the first man who was לכל בני אדם ראש, "an head to all the children of men": for by means of wine death was inflicted on him, and he was the cause of bringing the sorrows of death into the world.''
And in another place, speaking of Adam, they say (w), that
"he was עיקר בריאה של עולם, "the root of the creation", or "of the men of the world"; and death was inflicted upon him and on his seed, because he sinned one sin in eating of the tree.''
And it is observed,
"that הא הידיעה, the "He" demonstrative is not prefixed in Scripture to proper names, which yet is to the word "Adam"; the reason is, (say they (x),) because in Adam all his posterity are pointed at, and the whole human species designed.''
Again, they observe (y), that
"the end of man is to die, of which this is the reason, because מין האדם, "mankind" has sinned; that is, the nature of which he is composed, or in other words, Adam and Eve have sinned.''
Once more (z).
"when he (Adam) sinned, כל העולם כלו חטא, "all the whole world sinned", and his sin we bear;''
and (a) that
"the whole congregation of Israel have need of atonement for the sin of the first Adam, for he was חשוב ככל העדה, reckoned as the whole congregation;''
which exactly tallies with the apostle's assertion in this text.

Thank you.

Even if most of that where not available to reckon--although it is...in belief, we might simply take it from Jesus that through Adam's sin and the subtlety of Satan, even the chosen became sons of the devil. John 8:44

 

[Johann]

Thank you.

Even if most of that where not available to reckon--although it is...in belief, we might simply take it from Jesus that through Adam's sin and the subtlety of Satan, even the chosen became sons of the devil. John 8:44

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Who was Jesus talking to?

 

[ScottA]

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Who was Jesus talking to?

Abraham’s descendants.

 

[Johann]

Abraham’s descendants.

The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA?
J.

 

[ScottA]

The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA?
J.

Yes, we speak what we know.

 

[Johann]

Yes, we speak what we know.

the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
- Origin: probably from the base of G4563
- TDNT entry: 08:38,1
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
- Strong’s: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin) that is (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food) or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit) or as the symbol of what is external or as the means of kindred or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions) or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly + -ly minded) flesh ([-ly]).
Total KJV Occurrences: 130
• carnal, 2
Rom_8:7; Heb_9:10
• carnally, 1
Rom_8:6
• flesh, 126
Luk_3:6; Joh_1:13; Joh_1:14; Joh_6:52; Act_2:17; Act_2:26; Act_2:30; Act_2:31; Rom_1:3; Rom_2:28; Rom_3:20; Rom_4:1; Rom_6:19; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:18; Rom_7:25; Rom_8:1; Rom_8:3(3); Rom_8:4; Rom_8:5(2); Rom_8:8; Rom_8:9; Rom_8:12(2); Rom_8:13; Rom_9:3; Rom_9:5; Rom_9:8; Rom_11:14; Rom_13:14; 1Co_1:26; 1Co_1:29; 1Co_5:5; 1Co_6:16; 1Co_7:28; 1Co_10:18; 1Co_15:39(4); 1Co_15:50; 2Co_1:17; 2Co_4:11; 2Co_5:16(2); 2Co_7:1; 2Co_7:5; 2Co_10:2; 2Co_10:3(2); 2Co_11:18; 2Co_12:7; Gal_1:16; Gal_2:16; Gal_2:20; Gal_3:3; Gal_4:13; Gal_4:14; Gal_4:23; Gal_4:29; Gal_5:13; Gal_5:16; Gal_5:17(2); Gal_5:19; Gal_5:24; Gal_6:8(2); Gal_6:12; Gal_6:13; Eph_2:3(2); Eph_2:11(2); Eph_2:15; Eph_5:29; Eph_5:30; Eph_5:31; Eph_6:5; Eph_6:12; Php_1:22; Php_1:24; Php_3:3; Php_3:4(2); Col_1:22; Col_1:24; Col_2:1; Col_2:5; Col_2:11; Col_2:13; Col_2:23; Col_3:22; 1Ti_3:16; Phm_1:16; Heb_2:14; Heb_5:7; Heb_9:13; Heb_10:20; Heb_12:9; Jas_5:3; 1Pe_1:24; 1Pe_3:18; 1Pe_3:21; 1Pe_4:1(2); 1Pe_4:2; 1Pe_4:6; 2Pe_2:10; 2Pe_2:18; 1Jn_2:16; 1Jn_4:2; 1Jn_4:3; 2Jn_1:7; Jud_1:7; Jud_1:23; Rev_17:16; Rev_19:18(5); Rev_19:21
• fleshly, 1
Col_2:18
Just making sure we are on the same page
Shalom
J.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

....and what you are "hearing" and what you are teaching is heteros

Mortification of the flesh and the lusts thereof, the Imperative is on us to do it, does not apply to you?
A struggle all saints have till the day of our final redemption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies?
The scriptures is our final word, only those who are elect and chosen, filled with the Holy Spirit, sealed, a covenant can rightly cutting straight the D'var of Mashiach...there are no voive/voices but illumination and clarity re what stands written, Perfect Tense.


Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Shalom to you (praying for you)
J.

God has already "mortified" our flesh by crucifying the old man. We just have to walk in the Spirit. Romans 6:6-7. I know you don't want to believe that, and instead believe Jesus was a failure.

You believe what tickles your ears, J. Look what you didn't hightlight:

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

That is not to say we need not do anything. John says we "keep ourselves." J, all you have to do is keep your mind stayed on Jesus. 1 John 5:18.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The condition of the natural man is far, far worse than he imagines, and far worse than the average preacher and Sunday school teacher supposes. Man is a fallen creature, totally depraved, with no soundness in him from the sole of his foot even unto the head (Isa. 1:6).

He is completely under the dominion of sin (John 8:34), a bond-slave to divers lusts (Titus 3:3), so that he "cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14). Moreover, the natural man is thoroughly under the dominion of it.

He is taken captive by the Devil at his will (2 Tim. 2:26). He walks according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). He fulfills the lusts of his father, the Devil (John 8:44). He is completely dominated by Satan’s power (Col. 1:13). And from this thraldom nothing but the truth of God can deliver.

You agree with this ScottA? As for me, I am spiritual, filled with the Spirit of God.
J.

Are you a "natural man," J? How about you @ScottA?

Look at 1 Corinthians 2:9-16
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.