No scripture supports the Rapture

[bbyrd009]

Ezekiel 13

 

[Copperhead]

Not quite sure what you are expecting. The passages seems pretty straightforward.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not quite sure what you are expecting. The passages seems pretty straightforward.

the discourse on "rapture" is understood to begin about verse 18 or so.

 

[Copperhead]

the discourse on "rapture" is understood to begin about verse 18 or so.

I suppose that is possible. A maxim of computer science is, "if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything". I don't see the connection. The passages is speaking of the false prophets of Israel and false teaching that is causing the souls of the people to be consumed.

 

[bbyrd009]

I suppose that is possible. A maxim of computer science is, "if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything". I don't see the connection. The passages is speaking of the false prophets of Israel and false teaching that is causing the souls of the people to be consumed.

yes, in that instance by suggesting that they will get a "pillow" or "soft landing," and "fly like birds."

 

[keras]

I fully agree with the name of this thread: No Scripture supports the 'rapture'.

Quote; The question of a rapture to heaven of the Church, is determined more by Church doctrine, that by eschatology. It is not an explicit teaching of Scripture, the Bible does not state it in so many words. The Rapture Question, 1957 by Dr John Walvoord

Ezekiel 13:17-23 is an indictment against false prophets and Satanists. This applies today as well and we need to watch out for them. Nothing to do with a 'rapture' at all.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, I didn't see anything in Ezekiel 13 to give some idea of rapture, one way or the other.

But the Trinity is not stated in scripture either, yet the concept is sound. And harpazo in Greek for "caught up", "snatched away" etc is translated as Rapturo in the Latin Bible, from which the general use of the transliterated word "rapture" comes from. So while it may not be in an English language translation, it is in Latin. So it can easily be said that it is taught in scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

sure--it is how one interprets that matters there. If you consider that you can be spiritually "caught up," it might be worth reflecting upon that Scripture is a Book about the spiritual; and that a physical rapture might be thought of as a "pillow" or "soft landing," telling people they will "fly like birds," which comes from "false prophets."

Or interpret Ezekiel to suit yourself, but the point is don't just ignore it. Finer minds than mine determined that he was talking about the same doctrine. And of course "spiritually caught up" is not near as compelling, as a sales pitch.

 

[Copperhead]

Fly like birds shows a perception that doesn't view that there are multiple dimensions beyond those we experience in the here and now. Both the ancient Rabbi's and modern particle physicists agree that there are 10 dimensions to reality. I have no illusion about "flying like birds". Being caught up can easily imply a removal from this dimensionality into other dimensions. And still be a physical "catching up". Jesus showed us glimpses of that when He would suddenly materialize in a room with the disciples, or suddenly disappear when breaking bread in the Emmaus road account. Yet, he could still be touched and wasn't a apparition.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

I find it captivating that many UFO occultist types, like Barbara Marciniak, have gone to great lengths in their writings that they say were from channeled aliens to explain away a physical rapture that would occur. They state such things and those that will not fit into earth's harmonic vibrations will be levitated to waiting ships that will take them from here to hovering motherships above. And that all children will be removed also so they will not have to endure the problems the earth will be going thru during the earth harmonic changes.

It would seem that even Satan has found a way to explain away a rapture. Spooky stuff.

 

[keras]

Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15
So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

 

[ScottA]

Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15
So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

You speaking contrary to Christ and the scriptures to make a case for no rapture is noted.

However, the scriptures make a simple and clear case of their own regarding heaven:

• "Our Father who art in heaven..."
• "Lay up treasures in heaven..."
• "I go to the Father..."
• "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
• "There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever."

Amen.

 

[bbyrd009]

Fly like birds shows a perception that doesn't view that there are multiple dimensions beyond those we experience in the here and now. Both the ancient Rabbi's and modern particle physicists agree that there are 10 dimensions to reality. I have no illusion about "flying like birds".

sounds to me like that is exactly what you have, but regardless, what about Ezekiel? Was he delusional, is that what you are implying? i doubt that, so what are you saying about Ezekiel 13:18..?

Being caught up can easily imply a removal from this dimensionality into other dimensions. And still be a physical "catching up".

yikes, what next, UFOs? Why could one not be caught up into the kingdom, right beside them? A spiritual "catching up" iow?

that would be a big disappointment, huh, after you paid all that money i guess, and got all those wolf-assurances, from the fakers taking your money with a smile, and i guess it doesn't sound like it at the moment, but i am honestly sorry about that.

I find it captivating that many UFO occultist types, like Barbara Marciniak, have gone to great lengths in their writings that they say were from channeled aliens to explain away a physical rapture that would occur. They state such things and those that will not fit into earth's harmonic vibrations will be levitated to waiting ships that will take them from here to hovering motherships above. And that all children will be removed also so they will not have to endure the problems the earth will be going thru during the earth harmonic changes.

It would seem that even Satan has found a way to explain away a rapture. Spooky stuff.

ok then, you might try and find a "Christian" pastor who has not signed a 501c3 that will confirm your rapture heresy, as i do not believe that you can do that, either. Just for personal affirmation.

hey, did i call the UFO thing or what? lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15
So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

yup. "Peter, at the Pearly Gates" is also reflected nowhere in Scripture, and has to be manufactured to fit the false dogma. "Christians" even say it! :/

 

[Copperhead]

sounds to me like that is exactly what you have, but regardless, what about Ezekiel? Was he delusional, is that what you are implying? i doubt that, so what are you saying about Ezekiel 13:18..?

I thought I stated earlier the text seemed pretty straightforward. Did you miss that?

And any church or pastor that holds their 501c3 status higher than scripture, well that pretty much says it all. But there are many 501c3 Christian organizations that hold similar views. Some of those individuals are pretty reputable also. No, not TV preacher types, but well learned with very solid credentials.

Suggest you look deeper into first few verses of Genesis 6 and similar passages, along with some references in places like 1 Enoch (which was referenced by Jude and Peter in their letters). Especially before you are too quick to dismiss the idea of some pretty weird goings on. Especially since Jesus Himself said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at His coming. Seems like that is a prescription from Him to study what the days of Noah were really all about. Bizarre stuff for sure.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did you miss that?

no, it just stuck me as too generalized to have any meaning for me, and tbh whenever i hear "the text seems pretty straightforward" after that, i know...where i stand lol, let's put it that way.

So essentially you are done with Eze 13:18, and "soft landings" "pillows" and "fly like birds" being condemned by Ezekiel = "UFOlogists have a neat denial of the rapture too?" Since i doubt that is your position, but you have not given any interpretation of the relevant Ezekiel, please understand how "the text seems pretty straightforward" is coming across. Can you rephrase that maybe?

 

[bbyrd009]

But there are many 501c3 Christian organizations that hold similar views.

sorry, similar to what?

Some of those individuals are pretty reputable also.

reputable to whom? Don't they pretty much all get a 501c3 first, before they start preaching? Seems like a no-brainer, from a logical perspective. I mean, i am aware of exceptions, but then none of them are considered "reputable," i don't think.

 

[bbyrd009]

well learned with very solid credentials.

so, like the Pope?

 

[Copperhead]

no, it just stuck me as too generalized to have any meaning for me, and tbh whenever i hear "the text seems pretty straightforward" after that, i know...where i stand lol, let's put it that way.

So essentially you are done with Eze 13:18, and "soft landings" "pillows" and "fly like birds" being condemned by Ezekiel = "UFOlogists have a neat denial of the rapture too?" Since i doubt that is your position, but you have not given any interpretation of the relevant Ezekiel, please understand how "the text seems pretty straightforward" is coming across. Can you rephrase that maybe?

Uh, yeah. I am not "essentially done" with the passage. I was never there in your position on it. Where do you see "pillows", "soft landings", "fly like birds" being condemned in this passage?

Ezekiel 13:18 (NKJV) and say, “Thus says the Lord God: “Woe to the women who sew magic charms on their sleeves and make veils for the heads of people of every height to hunt souls! Will you hunt the souls of My people, and keep yourselves alive?

You are correct, the UFO thing is not something I hold to. I just placed in in the discussion because I find it quite fascinating that many UFO occultists go to great lengths to explain away a mass disappearance of people from the planet, as if Satan (who is deceiving them) definitely feels that a rapture is a reality. Read some of their stuff.

 

[Copperhead]

sorry, similar to what?
reputable to whom? Don't they pretty much all get a 501c3 first, before they start preaching? Seems like a no-brainer, from a logical perspective. I mean, i am aware of exceptions, but then none of them are considered "reputable," i don't think.

I didn't name any names, so how do you automatically assume that they are not reputable? Can you divine who it is I am referring? Keep in mind Proverbs 18:13. I never said they were all pastors or that they even have a preaching ministry. There is more to 501c3 than churches alone. They are not considered reputable by you only because they do not hold the position you do, not on objective basis of their character, knowledge, experience, etc. You make yourself out as the sole authority on scripture, and anyone that doesn't hold your view to the letter is wrong. Seems that is how cults get started.

 

[bbyrd009]

20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

i guess this is the relevant verse, sorry