No authority!

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,198
113
73
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The so-called Council of Jerusalem was not an institution and it was not the basis of the Magisterium.
Definition of institution
1a: an established organization or corporation (such as a bank or university) especially of a public character financial institutions
b: a facility or establishment in which people (such as the sick or needy) live and receive care typically in a confined setting and often without individual consent… the testator disinherited her siblings over their efforts to have her committed to a mental institution in the wake of several suicide attempts.— William M. McGovern Jr.
c: a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture the institution of marriage also : something or someone firmly associated with a place or thing she has become an institution in the theater
2: an act of instituting : ESTABLISHMENT
Institution | Definition of Institution by Merriam-Webster (merriam-webster.com)

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.
All this is in harmony with "institution" as defined as an English word. You have a different language, making discussion impossible.
Have you not read Galatians chapter 2, where Paul argues that "what they were makes no difference to me", indicating that he did not conference with an authoritarian body, but fellow believers who all share the same truth? The true authority is the original message, not a person or a council other than Jesus Christ himself.
Sheer nonsense. Why do you think Paul went to see Peter, James and John in the first place? TO SEE IF HIS GOSPEL WAS TRUE, LEST HE PREACH IN VAIN. Galatians 2:2. Furthermore, Paul was always subject to the Church.
It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle.
  • In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf. 9:17). Who told Paul what to do? Did Jesus appear to Paul a second time to tell him what to do? No. He was told what to do by Ananias, a representative of the Church divinely chosen by Jesus Himself to tell Paul what to do. Acts 9:17.
  • He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18), and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2, 9).
  • He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27).
  • Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28). Acts 15:2 states: “. . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.”
  • The next verse refers to Paul and Barnabas “being sent on their way by the church.” Paul did what he was told to do by the Jerusalem Council (where he played no huge role),
  • and Paul and Barnabas were sent off, or commissioned by the council (15:22-27), and shared its binding teachings in their missionary journeys: “. . . delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).
Furthermore, Paul appears to be passing on his office to Timothy (1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:6, 13-14; 2 Tim 4:1-6), and tells him to pass his office along, in turn (2 Tim 2:1-2) which would be another indication of apostolic succession in the Bible. (denied by anti-institution Christians)
The attempt to pretend that St. Paul was somehow on his own, disconnected to the institutional Church, has always failed, as unbiblical. Protestant frown upon institutions, but we Catholics rather like the Church that Jesus Christ set up, initially led by St. Peter.*

In a sense, you are correct. The Catholic Church "protected" the Bible, burying it in the ground for safe keeping like the man in Matthew 25:25.
I challenge you to provide from any Protestant historian written in the last 50 years, any kind of support for this LIE.
Rather than treating other people and especially other believers with mutual respect, they considered themselves to be "not like other men" (Luke:18-11)
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector is a different topic to the discussion of authority.
A true representative of Jesus Christ, being granted power and authority to rule over Europe, would have taught the people to read and to translate the Bible into their native tongue; but instead, the Catholic church forbade anyone from reading the Bible in a language other than Latin, and supported the aristocracy in their delusion that they had the divine right to keep the surfs in the dark and slaves in their lands.
This suggests that old, and rather anti-Catholic, prejudice - that the old Vulgate Latin Bible was part of a Catholic conspiracy to keep the Bible out of the hands of Christians, a conspiracy finally overcome at the "Reformation".

The Vulgate was so called precisely because it was written in the common tongue of all literate people in western Europe. If one could read at all, one could read Latin; so a Latin Bible, far from restricting medieval readers, made it universally legible.

Secondly a great many local vernacular translations of the Bible were made long before Luther produced his own.
In the fourth century, Ulfilas made a Gothic translation, a bishop of Seville produced an Arabic bible during the Moorish occupation of Spain, and most countries produced manuscripts of large sections of the Bible in their own tongues - in this country beginning with the seventh century Anglo-Saxon of Caedmon. The Norman- French Bible made at the University of Paris was widely used around 1250.

With the invention of printing, vernacular bibles multiplied.
-Of one German version alone, first printed in 1466, 16 editions had been printed before Luther's New Testament appeared in 1522.
-The first French New Testament appeared in 1478, five years before Luther's birth, and the complete French Bible in 1487.
- The Italians had theirs in 1471,
-the Dutch in 1477.
-The Swedes, the Bohemians, Slavs, Russians and Danes all had vernacular Bibles, circulated with full ecclesiastical support.

Whatever was going on in the 16th century, whatever the importance of Luther's own translation, it was not about putting the Bible in the hands of the people. Letter: Bible translations before Luther | The Independent | The Independent
I'm not impressed by your argument concerning the Magisterium, however, since I could care less about false teaching. I am impressed by the fact that God preserved the Bible down through history in light of the many wars, plagues, and famine that took place. I am impressed by those who translated the Bible into many languages and by those who spent the many years teaching other people how to read. I am impressed by those who teach others to think for themselves and the courage to live according to that conviction. It takes real courage and dedication to allow others the room and space to explore the depths of the knowledge of Christ without enforcing strict obedience to self-declared authorities.
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization: A Review

It was, after all, in the High Middle Ages that the university came into existence. The university, which developed and matured at the height of Catholic Europe, was a new phenomenon in European history. Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome. The institution that we recognize today, with its faculties, courses of study, examinations, and degrees, as well as the familiar distinction between undergraduate and graduate study, comes to us directly from the medieval world. And it is no surprise that the Church should have done so much to foster the nascent university system since, according to historian Lowrie Daly, it was "the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge."
This would not be possible under "enforcing strict obedience to self-declared authorities". That's Marxism, not Catholicism.

Astonishing Hostility to Higher Education in Early Protestantism
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay, Sola Scripturist -

Show me the Bible verse that says . . .
- Those in Heaven and in the presence of God are "Dead".
- Their connection with earth and it's people has "ended".

While you're at it - explain how a "Dead" guy SPOKE with Jesus at the Transfiguration.
I did not say they were not alive in heaven. They are dead to this world. They're gone. I can not talk to them and they can not talk to me. Angels speak, but dead mortals do not. There is no need for that. There is no value in that.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then, explain why Jesus ONLY gave them to a select few and NOT the crowds.
I'll wait here for your answer.

A little hermeneutical hint:
When Jesus taught the crowds - He was speaking to ALL people.
When He instructed His inner circle - He ewas instructing the LEADERS of His Church.
Well, we don't want to keep you waiting around too long, lol.....

"Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”50“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied Luke 9:49-50

I guess Jesus had some other leaders of his church besides the apostles? You have to either acknowledge that the powers of the Spirit were given to others besides the Apostles, or, say that Jesus said to not stop a fake worker of miracles because they were not against him. Which one do you want to go with?
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
spiritual anarchy
Then why didn't Jesus stop the person outside of the Twelve who was casting out demons in his name?

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

"Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Mark 9:38-40
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism!
Abraham was not justified (made righteous) through that, or through any work whatsoever. That's Paul's argument!

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. Romans 4:1-2
Why is Abraham, the father of faith, made righteous by faith apart from anything he did, but we aren't? How does that make him the father of faith, and our example of "righteousness apart from works" if we have to do works to be made righteous and he didn't?
 

Marvelloustime

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2020
6,550
11,600
113
Heaven bound
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Ye cannot enter into the KINGDOM lest like a small child . It never said world wise pope heeding twisted doctrine .
The popes and many are highly intellectual philosophical world , WORLD , wise . But lambs are as small children .
We trust what the bible says , we heed the SPIRIT and we test all men . lambs dont fall for twisted highly intellectual
wise sounding deception . They just trust as does a small child JESUS . And that means the BIBLICAL one
They love those bibles . If you all want to sit under men who for centuries , in order to create slaves of men
to serve mans cause , then that will be on you . But as for me and the lambs , WE hear one voice . AND a hint , IT AINT THE POPES .
And it aint the prosperity preachers , and it aint the emgergents , and it aint the liberal . ITS JESUS VOICE . And that Alone is who I NEED
and one book alone shall i read . THE BIBLE . And have fellowship with others who serve Christ and not mens twisted dogma .
You are loved my friend . Its why i did try and convince you .
We will keep marching on in the biblical Lord Jesus and will forever rejoice in the Lord. Oh yes, and in the Lord rejoice.
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,198
113
73
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You can post ALL the photos you want - but it doesn't make YOUR point any more factual.

Are the people in these photos practicing "Idolatry" - or just love and respect?

iu
iu

iu
The hypocrisy and stupidity of anti-Catholics is astonishing.

R49a3f36f12e92d5e745db90b9839f97d

At the centre of the monument, four 5 m-tall statues of Calvinism's main proponents are depicted:
Reformation Wall - Wikipedia

Those complaining of idolatry don't know when to quit.
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, we don't want to keep you waiting around too long, lol.....

"Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”50“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied Luke 9:49-50

I guess Jesus had some other leaders of his church besides the apostles? You have to either acknowledge that the powers of the Spirit were given to others besides the Apostles, or, say that Jesus said to not stop a fake worker of miracles because they were not against him. Which one do you want to go with?

many are called few are chosen
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then why didn't Jesus stop the person outside of the Twelve who was casting out demons in his name?

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

"Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Mark 9:38-40
Not the same as the function of a bishop or priest
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Abraham was not justified (made righteous) through that, or through any work whatsoever. That's Paul's argument!

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. Romans 4:1-2
Why is Abraham, the father of faith, made righteous by faith apart from anything he did, but we aren't? How does that make him the father of faith, and our example of "righteousness apart from works" if we have to do works to be made righteous and he didn't?

mk 16:16
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,667
2,626
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Also - I already told you that I don't "worship" the Church - but I DO wporship what it represents.
Let me ask you this. If the Pope came to your house, would you kiss the ring? Be honest.

I do not agree with your premise that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established.

Also, you are putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 5:14 does not say that the church is the light of the world. In that context, the blessed are individually like lights set on a hill, not collectively.

Paul's letter to Timothy concerns the conduct of church leaders within the local churches, not a world wide religious institution known as the Catholic Church.

This is just a sample of the way your doctrine has used individual verses taken out of context to support the gross error of the institution you worship.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These gifts are given to the body of Christ, not just to the leadership.
Soooo - WHY didn't Jesus tell these things to the crowds?
Instead of just sending out the 72 in Luke 10 to heal the sick and cast out demons - why didn't He send out EVERYBODY?
Why does Jude condemn the usurpation of the hierarchy and compare them with the Rebellion of Korah and their punishment (Jude 1:11)?

 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let me ask you this. If the Pope came to your house, would you kiss the ring? Be honest.

I do not agree with your premise that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established.

Also, you are putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 5:14 does not say that the church is the light of the world. In that context, the blessed are individually like lights set on a hill, not collectively.

Paul's letter to Timothy concerns the conduct of church leaders within the local churches, not a world wide religious institution known as the Catholic Church.

This is just a sample of the way your doctrine has used individual verses taken out of context to support the gross error of the institution you worship.
If your grandparent came to YOUR house - would you kiss them?
Or your parents?

As to your perversion of what Jesus said about the Church being the light of the world and a city on a hill being just each "individual" - He didn't say "LightS" or "CitiES". He said Light and City - in the collective sense.

Finally - it doesn't matter whether YOU agree that the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ. I know for a FACT that YOUR sect isn't because it was established AFTER the 16th century. Here are the words of 1ST CENTURY Bishop of Antiocn, Ignatius, who was a lifelong student of the John - and ordained by Peter himself:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole EUCHARIST you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Does YOUR sect go back that far?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We will keep marching on in the biblical Lord Jesus and will forever rejoice in the Lord. Oh yes, and in the Lord rejoice.
And we Catholics rejoice in the fact that Jesus isn't confined ONLY to what is written . . .
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,667
2,626
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sheer nonsense. Why do you think Paul went to see Peter, James and John in the first place?
Don't ignore his statement that is most germane to the issue at hand.

But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

This statement explicitly and emphatically contradicts your point of view, that Paul considered the Jerusalem council to be an authoritative body. No righteous and good man would ever make that claim about a legitimate authority. If the Jerusalem council was a legitimate authority, having authority over the body of Christ, Paul would NEVER say, "what they are makes no difference to me." Paul is NOT treating them according to rank, status or importance. He treated them as eye-witnesses to what Jesus said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris Bueller

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,667
2,626
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If your grandparent came to YOUR house - would you kiss them?
Or your parents?

As to your perversion of what Jesus said about the Church being the light of the world and a city on a hill being just each "individual" - He didn't say "LightS" or "CitiES". He said Light and City - in the collective sense.

Finally - it doesn't matter whether YOU agree that the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ. I know for a FACT that YOUR sect isn't because it was established AFTER the 16th century. Here are the words of 1ST CENTURY Bishop of Antiocn, Ignatius, who was a lifelong student of the John - and ordained by Peter himself:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole EUCHARIST you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Does YOUR sect go back that far?
You know what it means to kiss the ring. Why do you deny it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris Bueller

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Last edited:

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Soooo - WHY didn't Jesus tell these things to the crowds?
Instead of just sending out the 72 in Luke 10 to heal the sick and cast out demons - why didn't He send out EVERYBODY?
Why does Jude condemn the usurpation of the hierarchy and compare them with the Rebellion of Korah and their punishment (Jude 1:11)?
He did, lol! Stop living in denial. Read your Bible for yourself. Stop letting the Catholic church tell you what it says and what it means.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He did, lol! Stop living in denial. Read your Bible for yourself. Stop letting the Catholic church tell you what it says and what it means.
No - He only sent out SEVENTY-TWO - not ALL the crowds.

Those Seventy-Two were the firsat Leaders of the Church, along with the Apostles. Church historian Hippolytus lists them by NAME.
Among them are Ananias, who Baptized Paul, Matthias, who succeeded Judas and Stephen, the first Martyr.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You know what it means to kiss the ring. Why do you deny it?
I don't "deny" anything.
Kissing the Pope's ring has MORE than a single meaning.

It acknowledges his God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-19).
It is a sign of love and respect.

Since when does kissing equal "worship"??