No authority!

[theefaith]

to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. This is why it says:

“When He ascended on high,

He led captives away,

and gave gifts to men.” Ephesians 4:7-8​

has nothing to do with authority of governing the church

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is that why that apparition commanded to pray teh rosary and dedicate Russia to the Immaculate heart of Mary????

The entire devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary points to CHRIST.
Every parish church named after a saint is GOD'S house, named merely to commemorate the example of faith of that saint.

and that doesn't mean she was conceived without a sin nature nor incapable of sin. that is mythology incorporated into the RCC Church. If the Lord wanted even a 10th of the attention the RCC devotes to Mary you would think it would have been given as instructions. But I don't think Paul even mentioned Mary once! After Acts she no longer appears in Scripture except by those who allegorize passages to make them mean something they don't!

Well - that's what you ALL keep saying here - yet not ONE of you has been able to refute the linguistic implications of the title, "Kecharitomene" that was given to Mary in Luke 1:28.

When you can DO that - then, we'll discuss your problems with it . . .

Wrong!

Too bad you don't know th e difference between this word and the word pray like in Matt. 6
And worship is a totally spearate word so please learn what you speak of and not just vomit standard catholic responses.

No - it's NOT wrong.
Just because YOU reject the definition of the word "Pray" because it doesn't fit YOUR little psarameters.

As I explained to you in great detail - and even gave you the dictionary definition - "Pray", as it pertains to worship is a SECONDAY definition.
The PRIMARY definition of this word simply means to "ASK", to "SUPPLICATE", to "ENTREAT".

YOUR rejection of the definition is just a desperate attempt to cling to your anti-Catholic bias and nothing more . . .

 

[theefaith]

Wrong about it being handed to any of the apostles.

that’s Christian Faith!
The deposit of faith is given in whole and complete by Christ to his church (the apostles) eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

 

[theefaith]

I didn't know bread of life abdicated answering for himself and you took over.

as usual “it’s my thread”

 

[theefaith]

YOu couldn't be more wrong ! there was only one propitiatory sacrifice for believers. It happened one time only around 30-33 AD. Never to be repeated!

1 cor 11 “do this in memory of me”

 

[Taken]

...I was reading these . . .

Matt 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And ? What about it?
Are YOU blaming or exalting Peter for BINDING YOU up in a doctrine of Fallacies?
Or
Are YOU blaming or exalting Peter for LOOSING on the Earth a doctrine of Fallicies?

 

[theefaith]

Yep, but He is risen indeed and no longer on that cross!

no he is not but we do not conform to his resurrection but to his crucifixtion and death
1 cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

 

[theefaith]

There is no need to! He offered it HImself in heaven before the Father. We now remember and rejoice in HIs sacrifice and His conquest of death in His own body, and His returning to heaven to prepare a place for an unworthy servant like me!

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

pure offering or clean oblation or unbloody sacrifice

 

[theefaith]

The presence of Jesus and His work through the church follows the same evidence that He presented to the disciples of John the Baptizer when they came and asked Him if He was the One they were expecting.

He told them, "The lepers are cleansed, the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear, and the good news is preached." Therefore, the evidence of the presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit is the same: Sick and diseased people are healed, demons are cast out, and the gospel of Christ is preached with power resulting in unbelievers embracing Christ.

If we don't see these things happening in a church, then we can safely conclude that the Holy Spirit is not fellowshiping there.

I’ve never heard of a real documented miracle among any Protestant, fundamentalist, Puritan, sect! Not even one
Our lady of Guadalupe converted 9 million Aztec pagan natives of Mexico
Or hundreds of documented miraculous cures at Lourdes

 

[theefaith]

Jesus IS the resurrection...
To resurrect is in regards to the Body.
The Body must be dead Before resurrection.
Resurrecting a dead body, THAT BELIEVETH IN HIM...shall be resurrected to Life.
That has not YET occurred...

not only negate scripture but deny the doctrine of the communion of the saints

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And AGAIN, you've missed the point.

I didn't say that the laity doesn't have spiritual gifts.

I think you forgot what you were arguing for, lol:

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to confect the Eucharist.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25).

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to forgive sins or hold them bound.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (John 20:21-23).

God didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to pray over the sick and anoint them so that their sins would be forgiven.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (James 5:14-15).

If you have a problem with the way God set things up - then complain to GOD. not me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not works
You can’t baptize yourself

When you go to get water baptized that's something you DO. Paul says we are not justified (made righteous) by what we do, but rather by faith all by itself apart from what we do, just like Abraham. Catholics say you are made righteous by what you do—things you have to do to be made righteous before God. Paul calls that the works gospel. That's why there will never be reconciliation between you Catholics and the rest of us. The wall between us is high and very thick for a very good reason. You are not only on a different page than us, you aren't even in the same book. You will never win us over to your old covenant style works religion of mortal priesthood and carnal sacrifice.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I’ve never heard of a real documented miracle among any Protestant, fundamentalist, Puritan, sect! Not even one

I have. By my own hands. But of course that doesn't count, right?

Our lady of Guadalupe converted 9 million Aztec pagan natives of Mexico
Or hundreds of documented miraculous cures at Lourdes

I'm not a cessationist. I'm not even a reformist! I'm well aware of miracles through which the Catholics witnessed to the native population of the southwest United States. I believe firmly in the gifts.

 

[theefaith]

I have. By my own hands. But of course that doesn't count, right?


I'm not a cessationist. I'm not even a reformist! I'm well aware of miracles through which the Catholics witnessed to the native population of the southwest United States. I believe firmly in the gifts.

the key word here is documented

 

[Taken]

as opposed to your “faith alone” cult

Which would be correct...
Cult of Catholicism
VS
Cult of Faith alone.
Or
Cult of Mary
VS
Cult of Faith alone?

 

[Taken]

The hypocrisy and stupidity of anti-Catholics is astonishing.

But, but, but what about the stupidity and hyprocrisy of anti-Protestants...
Shouldn't their astonishments be acknowledged?

 

[theefaith]

Which would be correct...
Cult of Catholicism
VS
Cult of Faith alone.
Or
Cult of Mary
VS
Cult of Faith alone?

What does cult mean?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I’ve never heard of a real documented miracle among any Protestant, fundamentalist, Puritan, sect! Not even one
Our lady of Guadalupe converted 9 million Aztec pagan natives of Mexico
Or hundreds of documented miraculous cures at Lourdes

Can't argue with evidence! :)

 

[justbyfaith]

Moses died and was buried:

Deut 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the Lord DIED there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he BURIED him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day.

If Moses was "Alive" - which I also believe he was - then EVERYBODY in Heaven is also alive in Christ.

Why did you omit the word "alive" from my post?

Moses was alive at the transfiguration, for the disciples witnessed him being there in the body and talking to Jesus. Which does not preclude that those who are still in the grave are yet alive.

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to confect the Eucharist.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25).

None of those passages say what you said they say.

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to forgive sins or hold them bound.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (John 20:21-23).

It is actually given to those who have been given the Holy Spirit...which is not limited to church leaders.

That's funny - since WHEN are those in the presence of the Almighty and Eternal God "DEAD persons"??
Was Moses "DEAD" at the Transfiguration - or are YOU simply ignorant of Scripture??

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, we find that those who are in the graves will be raised when Christ returns...so they are not yet alive in the body.

Moses was obviously there in his body at the transfiguration; which means that Jesus obviously raised him from the dead for the purpose of that conversation.

As Jesus so aptly spoke about people like YOU:
Mark 12:27
"He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

You attempt to justify contact with the dead by saying that they are not dead but alive. But if there is any doubt in your mind that they might in fact be dead rather than alive, you are committing the sin of necromancy. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23).

It's impossible that Mark 16:16 means baptism makes you righteous before God. That would contradict Paul's assertion that being declared righteous (made righteous) does not happen through the merit of works, but rather by what you believe apart from what you do. Like Abraham.

Hi @Ferris Bueller.

I think that baptism is not a work; because the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who are baptized in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins as an identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and therefore as a confession of Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8).

And is not receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost salvation?

 

[Illuminator]

Hebrews 12:1
​

Catholics believe that the saints in heaven are aware of happenings on the earth. They are not isolated and removed from earthly realities, but intimately involved in them, as Hebrews 12:1 strongly suggests. Witnesses is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word martyr. The reputable Protestant Greek scholars Marvin Vincent and A. T. Robertson comment on this verse as follows:

[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith . . . watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid. ​

(Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament. 4 vols. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1946, IV, 536).

“Cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11 ​

(Word Pictures in the New Testament. 6 vols. Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, V, 432).

Protestants try to explain this away, because they seem to fear the notion that saints in heaven and earth have an organic connection. They want simply to “go straight to God” and bypass all the mediating functions of the saints. This makes no more sense than it would to ignore the aid of fellow Christians on earth, whom we ask to lend a hand or pray for us. Albert Barnes provides one example of the Protestant outlook in this regard, in commenting on this passage in his Notes:

It cannot be fairly inferred from this that he means to say that all those ancient worthies were actually looking at the conduct of Christians, and saw their conflicts. It is a figurative representation, such as is common, and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight, and cheered us on. How far the spirits of the just who are departed from this world are permitted to behold what is done on earth — if at all — is not revealed in the Scriptures. (Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1983)

But Hebrews 12:1 does reveal it! Barnes’s theology will not let him see what is right in front of him, even though Robertson and Vincent see it. How does Barnes know this is “a figurative representation”? He provides us no reasons. What inherent limitation would stop saints in heaven from watching activities on the earth? Is it not more reasonable to assume (even apart from the scriptural evidence) that those in heaven will have at least as much knowledge of, and interest in, earthly affairs as those on the earth?

Barnes claims that Scripture does not inform us how much those in heaven know about the earth. Yet Revelation 5:8 and 6:9-10 show the saints assisting in offering God the “prayers of the saints” (in which case, presumably, they were aware of them) and praying for a certain outcome of events on the earth.

Protestant Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, commenting on Revelation 6:10, writes:

The elect (not only on earth, but under Christ’s covering, and in his presence in Paradise) cry day and night to God, who will assuredly, in His own time, avenge his and their cause. (Robert Jamieson [Presbyterian], Andrew R. Fausset [Anglican], and David Brown [Anglican]. ​

Commentary on the Whole Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1961)

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott wrote:

The angels and the saints lay the prayers of the holy on earth at the feet of God, that is, they support them with their intercession as also might be expected from the permanency of charity (1 Cor. 13:8). The propriety of invoking them logically follows from the fact of their intercession (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. TAN Books, reprinted in 1974, 318).​

The saints are alive, and they love us! Protestants tend to think that such intercessions or involvements of the dead saints lead inexorably to idolatry.(or necromancy) But they do not, because we are not trying to replace God with saints. Idolatry is worshiping something or someone in place of God Almighty. Venerating a saint or asking him to pray is a fundamentally different concept.

Saints Are Closely Observing Us (“Cloud of Witnesses”)