new version of OSAS?

[michaelvpardo]

By your reasoning, you're making the crown a literal crown we will wear on our heads, which it is not. It's a metaphor for praise and honor. We will in fact be praised for and will glory in our work in the kingdom completed in this age. I posted the scriptures that say this. We will in fact glory in our works in the age to come. Not in our salvation, but in our works. Our work being the people who entered into the kingdom as a result of our labor in the field and building of God as God's co-worker.

Thank you for explaining to yourself what I've been trying to point out. People aren't crowns, they're souls created in the image of God, but marred by sin. Crowns are rewards for those works that we do "in christ" and by faith. The people are never the works, but their faith, genuine and more precious than gold, or false and useless to God for salvation and growth into the image of His son, is a direct result of hearing the word of God, the "job" of the preacher.
Noah preached righteousnes for hundreds of years without a single convert and was accounted by God as the only person righteous in his generation. Does that mean that Noah received no reward?
You are also mistaken in the notion that we will glory in our works in God's kingdom. That would be sin and in direct opposition to the word of God.
23 Thus says the Lord:

“Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
24 But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
For in these I delight,” says the Lord. Jeremiah 9:23-24

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Act_13:24 Before he came, John the Baptist preached that all the people of Israel needed to repent of their sins and turn to God and be baptized.

Act_17:30 “God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him.

Act_2:38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act_26:20 I preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that all must repent of their sins and turn to God—and prove they have changed by the good things they do.

Act_3:19 Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

Act_5:31 Then God put him in the place of honor at his right hand as Prince and Savior. He did this so the people of Israel would repent of their sins and be forgiven.

Eze_14:6 “Therefore, tell the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent and turn away from your idols, and stop all your detestable sins.

Eze_18:30 (ISV) "Therefore, Israel, I'm going to judge you according to the behavior of each and every one of you," declares the Lord GOD. "So repent and turn from all your sins so that sin won't keep on being a stumbling block for you.

Eze_3:19 If you warn them and they refuse to repent and keep on sinning, they will die in their sins. But you will have saved yourself because you obeyed me.

Eze_33:12 (NLT) “Son of man, give your people this message: The righteous behavior of righteous people will not save them if they turn to sin, nor will the wicked behavior of wicked people destroy them if they repent and turn from their sins.

Eze_33:9 But if you warn them to repent and they don’t repent, they will die in their sins, but you will have saved yourself.

Jer_36:3 Perhaps the people of Judah will repent when they hear again all the terrible things I have planned for them. Then I will be able to forgive their sins and wrongdoings.”

Lam_2:14 (GNB) Your prophets had nothing to tell you but lies; Their

Luk_11:32 The people of Nineveh will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent.

Luk_13:3 Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

Luk_16:30 “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’

Luk_24:47 It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’

Luke 5:32 KJV I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar_1:15 “The time promised by God has come at last!” he announced. “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!”

Mar_6:12 So the disciples went out, telling everyone they met to repent of their sins and turn to God.

Mat_12:41 “The people of Nineveh will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent.

Mat_21:32 For John the Baptist came and showed you the right way to live, but you didn’t believe him, while tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to believe him and repent of your sins.

Mat_3:11 “I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mat_3:2 “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”

Mat_4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”

Rev_16:9 Everyone was burned by this blast of heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had control over all these plagues. They did not repent of their sins and turn to God and give him glory.

Rev_2:16 (NLT) Repent of your sin, or I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
.

I have stated that I am talking about verses that come from the KJV.....some other versions just say anything....I made that clear earlier.....I was amiss not to say it recently for the viewers that are new to my challenge....” my bad” , as we kids say....( I am near 70).... lol....

 

[michaelvpardo]

By your reasoning, you're making the crown a literal crown we will wear on our heads, which it is not. It's a metaphor for praise and honor. We will in fact be praised for and will glory in our work in the kingdom completed in this age. I posted the scriptures that say this. We will glory in our work in the age to come. Not in our salvation, but in our work. Our work completed being the people who entered into the kingdom as a result of our labor in the field and building of God as God's co-worker. So be careful how you build! Build so as to get a reward. Run so as to win the prize.

God is not schizophrenic or confused. He never contradicts His word. The contradictions you create by your understanding are the fault of your understanding, not a failure of His word. You're on the highway, so keep walking, but don't put down your cross, don't crawl off the altar, and don't lean on your own understanding. He gave His Spirit for many purposes but ultimately to work in us and through us to renew us in the image of His son. Heaven isn't our great reward, people are not our great reward, even eternal life isn't our great reward (just a byproduct of it), God Himself is our great reward, His presence in the person of our older "brother", even the Lord Christ Jesus, and for all eternity is our great reward. We don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but God's revealed purpose is to create for Himself a "peculiar " people, not specifically a kingdom (the kingdom is the means to achieve the purpose, not the goal of it.)

 

[BloodBought 1953]

We can't tell the motive of the heart, though sincerity seems detectable, so we can't say what was in Judas' mind when he took his own life (or even if that act was accomplished by another cohabiting spirit.) All we know for certain is that Judas is identified by scripture as a son of perdition (destruction. )

I think that we “ can” know what was in the mind if Judas to a very large degree....he said it himself....” I have betrayed innocent Blood”......

Regardless of his Conviction Of sin, regardless of his remorse or repentance, it is as you say....we was a Son Of the Devil all along....He was Lost, for sure.....He is an example that one can be convicted of sin, repent of that sin by feeling sorrow and remorse for it , try you best never to repeat it again( had Judas lived, that surely would have been the case) —— ALL of these forms of “ repentance” and STILL goto Hell!

Every time you see “ repent” in a verse.....do not automatically assume that it means “ repent from Sins”..... throw in the words, “ Turn to God” ( which is another valid meaning of the word— there are Three) instead and see if it does not make more sense.....it is Scriptural ( Turn to me and I will Turn to you)

Also, please keep this in mind —— if “ Repent” always means to “ repent from sins”, Nobody in the Bible “Repented “ more times than God Himself did.....12 times at last count.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Thank you for explaining to yourself what I've been trying to point out. People aren't crowns...

They are your crowns. Your crowning achievement. Understand?

...my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown Philippians 4:1

...who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 2 Thessalonians 2:19​

Your theology can't explain the Philippians and the Thessalonians being Paul's crown.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are also mistaken in the notion that we will glory in our works in God's kingdom.

I just read what the Bible says.......

...so that you may boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of our Lord Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:14

For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy 2 Thessalonians 2:19-20
​

How are you missing all this in the plainly worded scriptures I'm posting? You haven't explained anything Paul said in the verses I've posted, only dismissed them out of hand as if they don't exist, deferring instead to your own theology.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I have heard it said that Jesus never really preached “ A Message”——-Jesus Preached “ HIMSELF!” .....I alway thought that made sense....

That's clever and ultimately true, but what He said regarding His words and His works were all in submission to the Father (He said what the Father gave Him to say, He did those works that the Father showed Him. ) The scriptures give us a "trinitarian " view of God and a commission based upon that perspective, and though we define Him reasonably as three persons, those "persons" have one goal, one ultimate purpose, and are in no way divided. The scripture uses human terminology and appeals to human thought and limitations to cast Jesus in roles which might appear to unstable minds as differences between the Father and Son; Jesus is our "mediator ", our advocate with the Father, our High Priest, and these "roles" cast Him in ways that our finite minds can grasp, can understand, and apply to our appreciation of what God does for us in our redemption, our salvation, and our place in the "new creation." However, it is God the Father who desires all these things and accomplishes them through the person of His Son, and the "body" of His Son, the bride of Christ, created from His rib (if you can accept the analogy,) through the agency of His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ present with us, and received in us by all who believe (asking in belief according to His promise. )

 

[michaelvpardo]

I just read what the Bible says.......

...so that you may boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of our Lord Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:14

For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy 2 Thessalonians 2:19-20
​

How are you missing all this in the plainly worded scriptures I'm posting? You haven't explained anything Paul said in the verses I've posted, only dismissed them out of hand as if they don't exist, deferring instead to your own theology.

I'm not missing anything, but you don't get to ignore grammatical rules when trying to interpret scripture. A statement remains a statement. A question remains a question. When you build doctrine on a question, you aren't building on established truth, but on wood, hay, stubble. Questions are not by definition definitive, even when posed rhetorically. A rhetorical question is entirely dependent upon the understanding of the questioned, not truth. A question cannot be verified as a tautology because it is a question and not a statement. We pose questions for agreement but the truth is not arrived at by agreement. Paul's recognition of his own sin caused him to sometimes question the content of his own epistles, but he remained confident in his understanding, even when He was unsure whether He spoke by the Spirit of God or according to his own wisdom. That truth is the basis of modern arguments over women in authority over men, and public behaviours in the church. Some would say that there was a great deal of wood, hay, and stubble in Paul's epistles. Personally I'm inclined to believe all of Paul's biblical arguments, including the order established for church worship and service, but question every matter of orthopraxy that is not specifically defined by scripture. Eg: Paul, a Jew by birth and a Pharisee by choice, organized the church according to the pattern of the synagogue, which is not inspired. The scriptures define the orthopraxy of blood sacrifice, they define the orthopraxy of the tabernacle and of the temple, but do not define the origin and function of the synagogue, which is by definition a tradition. Confining the orthopraxy of the church to Jewish tradition was in my opinion a mistake leading to the kind of carnal power structure exhibited in the historical Catholic Church with its mingling of Jewish tradition, Christian theology, and pagan practices. Unfortunately, you have to start wherever people are. In Paul's case, that was as a Jew commissioned and compelled by Christ to spread the gospel to the gentiles. Even in this Paul was somewhat less than faithful in his commission because of his love for his nation and God's holy people, chosen for both the blessings and cursing of the law. Paul chose to preach Christ in the synagogues first, to the Jews first, and then to the gentiles, in spite of his commission, to continue the pattern established in the Old Testament. It could be argued that Paul did a disservice to his own nation by his willful disobedience, but that would ignore both God's providence and sovereignty over creation.
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Roman's 8:28

 

[michaelvpardo]

I think that we “ can” know what was in the mind if Judas to a very large degree....he said it himself....” I have betrayed innocent Blood”......

Regardless of his Conviction Of sin, regardless of his remorse or repentance, it is as you say....we was a Son Of the Devil all along....He was Lost, for sure.....He is an example that one can be convicted of sin, repent of that sin by feeling sorrow and remorse for it , try you best never to repeat it again( had Judas lived, that surely would have been the case) —— ALL of these forms of “ repentance” and STILL goto Hell!

Every time you see “ repent” in a verse.....do not automatically assume that it means “ repent from Sins”..... throw in the words, “ Turn to God” ( which is another valid meaning of the word— there are Three) instead and see if it does not make more sense.....it is Scriptural ( Turn to me and I will Turn to you)

Also, please keep this in mind —— if “ Repent” always means to “ repent from sins”, Nobody in the Bible “Repented “ more times than God Himself did.....12 times at last count.....

I'm just saying that we can only speculate about the judgment of Judas Iscariot who literally killed himself by hanging from a tree (as one accursed.) His actual judge is Jesus and not us, but the scripture only uses the phrase "son of perdition " a very few times and not in a good or "saved" way.
I do believe that repentance is an essential element of scripture and sanctified life, but I also believe that repentance is an impossibility without a living and active conscience, and conscience is a human characteristic informed by belief. Eg. Those that sincerely believe that a fetus is no more than a blob of tissues forming under the imperative of biological reproduction, have no issue of conscience in killing it. Those whose conscience is informed by faith, struggle with the same. Those who are born again and recognize scripture as eternal truth, are horrified, mortified, angered, and saddened by the same evil deeds. The difference between sound doctrine and unsound with respect to works, is that true repentance can only be the result of true conviction by the Holy Spirit and not by conscience alone (everyone has a conscience but some are informed by truth, others are informed by lies which seem reasonable to our spirit, alive or dead to God, some are tender and some are hardened. God softens the hard of heart. God can remove the stony heart and replace it with flesh.) Jesus preached to Jews with the same basic nature as gentiles, but those Jews were under law and sanctified by the law, set apart for blessings and cursing, so were not strictly speaking "sinners of the gentiles", people outside the covenant of law, strangers to the promises given to Israel. The gentiles are given the new and eternal covenant of peace (as was the remnant of Israel) and so was all creation. We haven't all grasped the latter concept or the implications to those spirits "fathered" by God, but not born as men.

 

[michaelvpardo]

They are your crowns. Your crowning achievement. Understand?

...my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown Philippians 4:1

...who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 2 Thessalonians 2:19​

Your theology can't explain the Philippians and the Thessalonians being Paul's crown.

Because they aren't and God never said that they were. Paul posed the question in his epistle to the Thessalonians and the statement as the desire of his heart to the Phillipians, but Paul seated himself in the place of Christ on occasion, even quoting scripture that applies to Christ in application to himself. This could be called appropriate if speaking directly for God and by the Spirit of prophecy, but it's pretty safe to say that Paul had not yet "attained " by his own admission, and that he is not Jesus, but rather a chosen vessel for the gospel, a "clay pot " carrying a precious "scroll", the word of God, the good news of salvation.
As sin separates us from God, faith draws us near. The greater the faith, the closer our proximity to God. It is that proximity to God that transforms us. The first physical reaction to the Holy expressed in scripture is fear, fainting, weakness, death to self. These are things common to our fallen nature, hiding from God, trying to cover our "truth" with our excuses and the placement of blame, rather than owning our sin. This is carnality, the understanding of life as we know it to be, the evidence of our senses, and the denial of the sin that dwells deep within us. Paul may indeed receive a stewardship in the millennial kingdom over some portion of God's people, but he couldn't possibly know that unless he'd received some direct and unconditional promise from God, based upon his calling and election, not upon his works. People are never rewards, Jesus taught us this through parables about stewardship, but God certainly knew what the church would look like in our time and has described it repeatedly in the epistles. The kings of the Earth didn't understand this and so we have hosts of spiritual wickedness in high places. The real testing of God's creation, as He intended it to be, is in that millenial kingdom, where man is placed in authority over angels and the excellency of Christ is magnified in His glorified wife.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I just read what the Bible says.......

...so that you may boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of our Lord Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:14

For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy 2 Thessalonians 2:19-20
​

How are you missing all this in the plainly worded scriptures I'm posting? You haven't explained anything Paul said in the verses I've posted, only dismissed them out of hand as if they don't exist, deferring instead to your own theology.

Actually, I have given you a full and accurate explanation, but your understanding rejects it. Talk to God about it, ask Him about me if you'd like. Jesus is the true and faithful witness, Paul and I are just servants, both waiting for the final redemption of our bodies. Our callings are not the same, but I assure you that we share many of the human frailties associated with this body of death we carry around and are sometimes quite comfortable with our own wretchedness. Paul was called and chosen under compulsion and had the temerity to write "follow me as I follow christ" or as it is alternatively translated "imitate me as I imitate Christ", but Paul isn't the mark, Jesus is. Paul isn't the standard, Jesus is. We have to understand Paul's epistles in the light of context. They were written, every one of them, to gentile churches, most of whom were entirely unfamiliar with the law and the prophets. It's no coincidence that many early church "leaders" were either Jewish by birth, or born to "mixed" blood lines, because these had the scriptural foundation upon which to build the doctrines of Christ. Most were starting from scratch with regard to biblical knowledge, the only scripture that they'd typically heard was the gospel itself. Paul had to feed the roots for the tree to grow and he sometimes did so with concepts foreign to judaism, but widely understood by the Roman world with its Greek traditions. The crowns he spoke of were Greek concepts, the rewards for running in competitive races. So much of what he said and even some things written by the gospel scribes is derived from or addresses Greek culture. Jewish scholars often reject the New Testament as a "greek" book or a gentile fabrication, out of hand and with no consideration of the content.
When God calls us, He starts where we are, with who we are. That was just as true with the first church as the last. However, let me be clear that all who sit under the word are sanctified by the word, belief is not a requirement because children are sanctified by their believing parents. A child of a born again believer is no different than a Jew born under the covenant of law. (Church history kind of proves that.)

 

[TheslightestID]

I think the Bible shows that Judas was a sincere Repenter...his remorse and sorrow for his sins were so sincere that he even returned his ill- gotten silver to the ones that gave it to him....his sorrow and guilt were so sincere and extreme, he could not stand it, and he had to kill himself...in a way, Judas was the “ King” of Repenters....I must ask respectfully —— is he “ IN? The bigger question would be , how do you define “ repentance”—— the repentance that Saves.....

Could easily be Judas killed himself out of sheer depression, people do it all the time and it has nothing to do with repentance. He just isn't a good/normal example. Did he even ask forgiveness? The is just so much we dont know there.

Repentance is easy to define, there is no need to expect thd biblical defintition to mean much more than that of the dictionary.

re·pent
/rəˈpent/
verb

1. feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.

And in turn, if we do that, then we naturally want to stop the sin. So be remorseful of our sin, and take steps to stop it. Nothing new at all there and there is no need to complicate it now.

What do you think it is?

 

[Cooper]

I have stated that I am talking about verses that come from the KJV.....some other versions just say anything....I made that clear earlier.....I was amiss not to say it recently for the viewers that are new to my challenge....” my bad” , as we kids say....( I am near 70).... lol....

Do you honestly believe you do not need to repent in order to be saved?
.

 

[JunChosen]

Do you honestly believe you do not need to repent in order to be saved?

I say NO! What about John the Baptist, was he not saved in his mother's womb?

To God Be The Glory

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Could easily be Judas killed himself out of sheer depression, people do it all the time and it has nothing to do with repentance. He just isn't a good/normal example. Did he even ask forgiveness? The is just so much we dont know there.

Repentance is easy to define, there is no need to expect thd biblical defintition to mean much more than that of the dictionary.

re·pent
/rəˈpent/
verb

1. feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.

And in turn, if we do that, then we naturally want to stop the sin. So be remorseful of our sin, and take steps to stop it. Nothing new at all there and there is no need to complicate it now.

What do you think it is?

Saving Repentance is essentially the realization that, “ Hey , my thinking has been wrong—- it had better get ” right” or I am in for Big Trouble ! My “ thinking” USED to be that even though I was not perfect, I was not as bad as those guys in prison! THOSE are the guys that need to get Saved! I ain’t perfect , but I’m “ good enough” to get to Heaven!”



I just so happened to “ stumble across” this interesting piece of reading this evening....it pretty much sums up my thinking in regard to “Repentance” .....I find it to be Biblically sound , which is all that matters in the end....

REPENTANCE IS PROBABLY THE MOST MISUNDER- STOOD WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS NOT:
1. “SAVING” repentance is not being sorry for your sins.
2. Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life.
3. Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.
Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save you just the way you are. The Bible says:
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS:
Saving repentance is to stop trusting in gaining eternal life through religion, religious rituals, or obedience to God’s laws.
The word “repent” comes from the Greek word which means “to change one’s mind.” Those who believe that eternal life can be earned through good works are commanded in Scrip- ture to change their mind or “repent.” They are told to stop trusting in their works, and come to God on the basis of grace through faith alone.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Why be insulting?

no insult there.

Tong
R3507

 

[Corlove13]

That choice was for the children of Israel, the covenant people, to make.

Tong
R3502

Aren't the Gentiles grafted in.....and do not the blessings of Abraham come by the seed, Christ? And who are those of faith?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So then I am right in my understanding of your view, that you are in control, not God. And you say that with certainty, but I am not one among that “us” and “we” that you refer to there in your statements.

Had a tough time understanding that as it was a bit incoherent, but I'll still try to work with it.

Nothing incoherent there.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Who is responsible for your abiding and enduring to the end?

The following verse should help tremendously...it makes it all so simple. It is essentualy saying, I am responsible for being ready, no one else.

◄ Matthew 24:42 ►

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Yes it is clear then that you consider and take your abiding and enduring as your working.

And so we have a different perspective and take with regards that matter. For as with me, it is God’s working.

Tong
R3508

 

[Cooper]

WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS:
Saving repentance is to stop trusting in gaining eternal life through religion, religious rituals, or obedience to God’s laws.
The word “repent” comes from the Greek word which means “to change one’s mind.” Those who believe that eternal life can be earned through good works are commanded in Scrip- ture to change their mind or “repent.” They are told to stop trusting in their works, and come to God on the basis of grace through faith alone.

That is what repentance means. So what are you wittering on about?
.

 

[Corlove13]

Repentance is both turning from sin and turning to God. I thought we had settled that with the scriptures already?

Rethink your thinking