More on the deity of Christ

[Matthias]

I pose this question to the OP in particular (who seems to have abandoned the thread) and to orthodoxy in general: Was Jesus of Nazareth a monotheist?

This, imo, is the way to respond to the historical approach of the OP and orthodoxy.

Jesus of Nazareth himself is a strict monotheist. The Shema (see again Dr. Brown’s concession about the transition which occurred away from the personal theology of Israel affirmed by Jesus to the tri-personal theology of Nicaea) is his theology that should be placed in the scale and balance with orthodoxy.

“Was Jesus of Nazareth a monotheist?“ I borrowed the question from the title of a paper written by a professor (Dr. Jerome H. Neyrey) at Notre Dame University

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146107919852270#:~:text=In%20summary%2C%20the%20Gospels%20contain,%3A4%2C%20no%20incidental%20passage.

Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was (and still is) a monotheist. His personal monotheism is that of Israel (unitarian), not that of orthodoxy (trinitarian).

What difference does that make?

It makes all the difference to me. And this is what I would like members who affirm orthodoxy to address with me in my reexamination of my own belief in the personal monotheism of Israel and Jesus.

 

[marks]

This, imo, is the way to respond to the historical approach of the OP and orthodoxy.

Jesus of Nazareth himself is a strict monotheist. The Shema (see again Dr. Brown’s concession about the transition which occurred away from the personal theology of Israel affirmed by Jesus to the tri-personal theology of Nicaea) is his theology that should be placed in the scale and balance with orthodoxy.

“Was Jesus of Nazareth a monotheist?“ I borrowed the question from the title of a paper written by a professor (Dr. Jerome H. Neyrey) at Notre Dame University

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146107919852270#:~:text=In%20summary%2C%20the%20Gospels%20contain,%3A4%2C%20no%20incidental%20passage.

Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was (and still is) a monotheist. His personal monotheism is that of Israel (unitarian), not that of orthodoxy (trinitarian).

What difference does that make?

It makes all the difference to me. And this is what I would like members who affirm orthodoxy to address with me in my reexamination of my own belief in the personal monotheism of Israel and Jesus.

Why are we still here arguing against the Deity of Jesus Christ?

And in this case, by putting words into Jesus' mouth? How low can you go?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

“It matters greatly that Jesus himself proclaims this traditional, orthodox faith; it matters that he quotes Deuteronomy 6:4-5, the text-of-texts in regard to Israel’s God. … the Gospels explicitly declare that Jesus himself expressed traditional belief in Israel’s God, when challenged both by Israel’s elite and by Satan. The very fact that Jesus is challenged precisely over these very issues expresses the evangelists’ acceptance that he proved to be orthodox and traditional. These remarks are not reported as obiter dicta, asides or implied statements. They are formally intended to assert the traditional, orthodox confession about the God of Israel.” - Jerome H. Neyrey

Dr. Neyrey is speaking about Jewish orthodoxy. He rightly asserts that Jesus of Nazareth is orthodox in his belief and teaching.

My orthodoxy is Jewish because Jesus of Nazareth’s orthodoxy is Jewish.

I’m not “we”. I’m me. I affirm the deity of Messiah - not to be confused with the affirmations of trinitarians, binitarians and some unitarians - within the constraints of Jewish monotheism. I’m speaking as a member who is registered as “Other Faith” in an apologetics forum that isn’t restricted to members who are registered “Christian”.

My apologetic is the Shema (the creed of Judaism, Israel and Jesus of Nazareth), biblical history, church history (both biblical and post-biblical), as well as affirmations and concessions of trinitarian scholarship.

I’ve invited criticism of my position and provided the strongest arguments I’m aware of against my position for consideration by others. If there are other arguments against Jewish monotheism I would like to hear them and I would like others to hear them too.

 

[marks]

Jesus took on all that came with being human, including, as Jeremiah had proclaimed that YHWH is God of all flesh, worshiping God. He fulfilled all righteousness. This in no wise contradicts the many places in Scripture from which we see Jesus' deity, and from which we see what Jesus knew about Himself, His pre-existance, that He came from heaven, His oneness with the Father. All this without putting words into His mouth.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Is Jesus of Nazareth a human person?

Historical orthodox trinitarianism asserts and affirms that he wasn’t, isn’t and never will be a human person. All anyone has to do who doubts that is to search the Internet with the search terms “Jesus is not a human person”.

Trinitarians should be hearing it taught in Sunday School and preached from the pulpit. That is seldom the case. For years, even decades, I’ve publicly called for pastors and teachers to educate those in their care on the subject.

It is an argument against Jewish monotheism, but it isn’t used often and I don’t find it persuasive.

 

[marks]

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus is a human person” is not possible in historical orthodox trinitarianism. It’s easy to find and quote trinitarian apologists - Catholic and Protestant alike - explaining why.

I invite trinitarian apologists to do so in this thread. (I’ve done it already in other threads. My favorite - because it’s the easiest for the average person to understand- is Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church.)

If anyone wants to affirm orthodoxy, they have to affirm that Jesus is not a human person - never has been and never will be.

 

[Matthias]

View attachment 59869

“Jesus is not a human person” is different from his humanity in trinitarian theology. I don’t doubt that you understand that but many - probably most - of your readers will not.

Anecdotally, about 80 percent of trinitarians don’t know it. That has been my personal experience and the personal experience of trinitarian pastors I’ve spoken with about the matter.

 

[marks]

“Jesus is not a human person”

Google that, and you get a bunch of Catholic websites. I'm not interested in Catholic commentaries. Just keeping with the Bible.

Corporations are persons but not human persons. But that's just wordplay, and I think we all know that.

But again . . . what's with the disputes over Jesus' deity?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Google that, and you get a bunch of Catholic websites. I'm not interested in Catholic commentaries. Just keepiwith the Bible.

Catholics affirm historical orthodox trinitarianism. You are correct that anyone who searches for it will get a bunch of Catholic websites. I appreciate that. I’m often falsely accused of lying about it by people who aren’t knowledgeable of the subject.

What you neglected to say is that persons searching in the internet will also get Protestant websites. I’ve documented this in other threads.

Corporations are persons but not human persons. But that's just wordplay, and I think we all know that.

But again . . . what's with the disputes over Jesus' deity?

Much love!

Anyone who wants to affirm historical orthodox trinitarianism may do so but they can’t affirm that Jesus is a human person because that is a denial of the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity.

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus is not a human person” isn’t merely a teaching of the Catholic Church. It is the teaching of historical orthodox trinitarianism which all mainline Protestant denominations have inherited. That is why we find it taught by both Catholic and Protestant theologians.

Jesus is God and man but not a human person in orthodox trinitarian theology.

 

[marks]

Anyone who wants to affirm historical orthodox trinitarianism may do so but they can’t affirm that Jesus is a human person because that is a denial of the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity.

No, I'm asking, why do you persist in arguing against Jesus' deity on a forum that doesn't want that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

“Jesus is not a human person” isn’t merely a teaching of the Catholic Church. It is the teaching of historical orthodox trinitarianism which all mainline Protestant denominations have inherited. That is why we find it taught by both Catholic and Protestant theologians.

Jesus is God and man but not a human person in trinitarian theology.

Fully God and fully man I believe is the idea. Is Jesus different from us? Yes. Is He human? Yes. Is He God? Yes.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

No, I'm asking, why do you persist in arguing against Jesus' deity on a forum that doesn't want that?

Much love!

I think you’re confusing what you don’t want with what the administration of the Board doesn’t want. I’m registered “Other Faith” and posting in compliance with the new rules. What the administration here doesn’t want is members who are registered “Christian” to speak against historical orthodox trinitarianism.

Ironically, if you’re speaking against the historical orthodox trinitarian teaching that Jesus is not a human person, you’re a “Christian” member doing what the new rules prohibit.

 

[Matthias]

Fully God and fully man I believe is the idea. Is Jesus different from us? Yes. Is He human? Yes. Is He God? Yes.

Much love!

Is Jesus a human person?

Historical orthodox trinitarianism says that he isn’t.

Jewish monotheism says that he is.

 

[marks]

Is Jesus a human person?

Historical orthodox trinitarianism says that he isn’t.

Jewish monotheism says that he is.

Trying to argue this from either the Catholics or the Jews is not going to convince me. I read the Bible, I believe what I read.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Trying to argue this from either the Catholics or the Jews is not going to convince me.

I also quote Protestants. That isn’t going to convince you either.

I read the Bible, I believe what I read.

Much love!

So do I.

 

[Matthias]

“There is only one person who is Christ, and that person is divine. Thus, there is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’”

(William Lane Craig, “Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?”)

Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry? | Reasonable Faith

Hello Dr. Craig, First, I want to thank you for all that you have done for the cause of Christ. You have been a powerful witness for the faith. I've continually been challenged in my thinking and knowledge by your writings and public discourses. You have taught me how to think critically and...

www.reasonablefaith.org

Dr. Craig is a Protestant, not a Catholic. He is defending orthodoxy; arguing for orthodoxy, not arguing against it.

I want everyone - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike - to know what historical orthodox trinitarianism teaches. Trinitarians should too.

 

[marks]

“There is only one person who is Christ, and that person is divine. Thus, there is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’”

Am I the only one who sees the silliness of this statement? It's wordplay.

Have a great weekend!

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Am I the only one who sees the silliness of this statement? It's wordplay.

It’s not a wordplay. It’s the teaching of historical orthodox trinitarianism. It’s standard Catholic teaching and Protestant teaching, but seldom heard from the pulpit or in the Sunday School classroom.

Have a great weekend!

Much love!