More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[Truth7t7]

BTW. He is coming soon. If you were watching, you would know this.

How soon, a month, year, decade, century?

When he comes, where will it be at?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sounds like axe grinding.

Jesus went to prepare a place, and said if He returned it would not be to stay but rather that where He is, we might be also.

But the topic is rather before or after the times foretold. But He began returning "but each one in his own order" 2,000 years ago, and that is when His reign began...making both theories wrong.

This is absurd nonsense. He did not begin returning 2,000 years ago. Scripture repeatedly talks of His return as a future event (not one that had already begun) at which time all of the dead in Christ will be raised and all in Christ will be changed. The order of resurrections Paul gave in 1 Cor 15:22-23 was that Christ's was first and then next in order are all those who belong to Him at His future second coming. This will happen when the last trumpet sounds. It's not as if each person has their own last trumpet that sounds.

 

[WPM]

It's not like I haven't been posting verses. You seem unable to understand them. You keep looking for this one single verse that gives the answer you are looking for about when He is coming and you seem unable to believe what He tells you. Here is why you can't find the verse that proves when he is coming, and yet you do not understand.

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

BTW. He is coming soon. If you were watching, you would know this.

More insults and bogus insinuating.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The son of man is revealed at the 6th seal, BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

The final wrath of God comes down right after He is revealed. Revelation 6:12-17 indicates that "the great day of His wrath has come" when the sixth seal is opened, not that it will come years later as you believe. Paul also made it clear that the wrath of the Lamb comes down right after He is revealed from heaven:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No sir. It is the end of the age, BEFORE the 7th seal and the wrath of God begins.

Why do so many ignore the fact that the wrath of God cannot begin before the 7th seal is opened. Therefore the events of the 6th seal are not the events of the 7th trumpet.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same. Tribulation ends at the 6th seal with the coming of Jesus for a harvest which is the great multitude in Revelation 7. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and Jesus returns again at the end of wrath.

At the end of the age, the eternal age to come will be ushered in when no one gets married anymore and no one dies anymore.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

In your false doctrine, you have people still getting married and still dying after the end of the age arrives, which contradicts what Jesus taught.

At the end of the age, all people will be judged:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In your false doctrine, you don't have the wicked being judged at the end of the age even thought Jesus clearly taught that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is nothing reasonable when it comes to millennialists!

Certainly not with the ones on this forum. I've seen a few reasonable premils on other forums, but none here so far.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello! The binding of the strongman is the binding of Satan. All objective commentators accept that. The reality is: this exposes your theology and timeline, thus you have to reject it. Satan (the strongman has been bound since and through the First Advent. Satan’s will get a short season at the end, when the mystery of iniquity is released to delude people. There may be good reason to believe we are there now. Things are in swift and disturbing free-fall globally. Restraint seems to have been removed.

It's really hard to understand how someone can acknowledge that the binding of the strong man has to do with the binding of Satan and how that happened long ago and still claim that Satan has not been bound yet.

 

[The Light]

More insults and bogus insinuating.

Here is an example of our conversation.

WPM: The Pretribulation Fix Your Car is a false teaching. Here's the Mechanics Manual. If the Pretribulation Fix Your Car is true find me one chapter in the manual that will show me which part will fix my transmission, and motor and get me 30 miles a gallon.

The Light: There isn't one.

WPM: See I told you it's a false teaching. Hey look, everyone. The Pretribulation Fix Your Car is a false teaching. You have to be taught this nonsense. It's not in the Mechanics Manual. I'm just asking for one chapter, and no one can do it.

The Light: Well, if you go to Chapter 4 it will tell you about torque converters for your transmission. If you go to Chapter 8 is will tell you about valves for your engine and if you go to Chapter 12 it can tell you how to increase your gas mileage.

WPM: See I told you. You have to be taught this stuff. You have provided nothing. I'm only asking of for one chapter, and it can't be done. I told you, false teaching.

The Light: Mmmm.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you for your response. OK, now let me ask you to read the text.

"For the great day of His wrath is come and who is able to stand."

The day of wrath lasts one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The day of the Lord's vengeance and the year of recompences are the same thing. So, why are you taking the word "year" in that verse literally (as in 365 days), but not the word "day"? Because of doctrinal bias perhaps? I think so.

If I say that next year is the year of my 27th wedding anniversary, am I talking about an event that lasts for the entire year? No, I'm just talking about the day that will mark my 27th wedding anniversary next year. That verse you quoted is just talking about a certain day during a certain year in the future at which point the Lord's wrath will come down on the entire world, just as Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not just fighting with all Amils, you are fighting with the OT prophets, Jesus and the NT writers. You wrongly apply Zechariah 12 to the Second Advent rather than the First. “In that day” appears six times in that chapter thus indicating the harmonious nature of it. Matthew quoted from it explaining how it explicitly related to the First Advent and specifically the cross.

I think that Zechariah's audience, focus and responsibility was Jews as he lived in the Old Testament era, that did not mean the Gentile wasn't in view in regard to the new covenant only they were merely secondary at this juncture in history. Zechariah 13:1 and Zechariah 12:10 connect. Israel's Redeemer/Messiah and Lord already came 2,000 years ago - many believed, many didn't.

The first time that Jesus came He came as Savior. The next time He comes He is coming as judge. If men are not ready, then they will be punished and sent to the lake of fire. There will be no time to repent when He comes. It will be too late. We will deliver His people before destruction (as in Noah and Lot's day) in 1/20th of a second (the twinkling of an eye). All left will be destroyed.

This passage relates to when Messiah appeared nearly 2,000 years ago. As predicted, salvation flowed out from the Cross – firstly to Israel, then to the nations. Many, many Jews have accepted Christ and His sacrifice for sin since then. Many came to a personal faith in Christ after the resurrection. Since then, countless Gentiles have entered into the joy of sins forgiven. The cross is man’s only hope; it is the only means by which sinful man (Jew or Gentile, pre-Calvary or post) can enter into union with God. It is the only way that man can be reconciled onto sinful creatures and experience the wonderful quickening “spirit of grace.” The Holy Spirit came like rivers of living water to all who would believe in Christ. Jews by the thousands, as well as new Gentile converts were the welcome recipients of this following Calvary.

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken (speaking of Psalms 34:20). And again another scripture (speaking of Zechariah 12:10) saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

Jesus nails it for us. There is no room for further debate, personal opinion, speculation to fit man's paradigms, when He locates it.

You can explain away the sacred text all you want but the Holy Ghost has already located this at the cross.

Sorry. I takes Jesus interpretation and application of this before your bias mistaken Premil one. You are fighting with Jesus here.

Great post. Premils simply do not accept the fulfillments of Old Testament prophecies as given in the New Testament, such as the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 that Jesus clearly applied to the time of His death. For whatever reason, they don't want to allow the New Testament to make the Old Testament prophecies easier to interpret for them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes and I showed you the evidence in Isaiah 34 that the day of the wrath lasts one year. And like I said that is not the only evidence.
So here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The earth is reaped, and the great multitude goes to heaven. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

Where is there any indication that the wrath described there lasts for one year? That is completely absurd. Why would it take a whole year for Jesus to destroy His enemies?

The Church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. So just as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood, so will the Church be in heaven before the final week begins. Part of Israel will be able to see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the second harvest. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. They will be raptured just before wrath as the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came, and so it will be at the second harvest.

This is all utter nonsense based on your imagination. A pre-trib rapture is not even remotely taught anywhere in scripture. It is the weakest doctrine I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, so please quote the actual text that teaches this?

You've asked pretribs this question (or something similar) probably hundreds, if not thousands, of times, and not one of them has answered it yet. Don't hold your breath that it will happen this time. :)

Edit: I see that an attempt was made to answer the question, but it is very far from convincing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll keep it as simple as I can. Here is the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Do you understand that those in the church were "kings and priests" unto God already when the book of Revelation was written? Why are you applying this passage to a supposed pre-trib rapture when it clearly has absolutely nothing to do with that? That is talking about the souls of believers being in heaven, not believers with changed, immortal bodies.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Can you see here how being made kings and priests unto God was a reality long ago already? Take that into account when reading Revelation 5:9-10 and adjust your thinking accordingly.

Here is the second harvest after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is another view of the harvest that takes place at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus remains in the clouds and does not touch the earth. He returns to heaven with the great multitude.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is such a stretch of the imagination to think that these verses teach a pre-trib rapture, followed by a 7 year period of tribulation, followed by the second coming of Christ. They come nowhere near teaching such a thing. This is why the pre-trib rapture theory can't even be taken seriously. You can't possibly make a coherent argument from scripture to back it up. Your attempt here certainly falls way short of that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rapture passage.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Warning not to be ignorant of what happens when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

One week needs completing.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is such a weak attempt at proving a supposed pre-trib rapture, followed by a 7 year tribulation followed by the second coming of Christ. You take unrelated scriptures, mix them together and the pre-trib rapture theory results from that. Are you unable to come up with a coherent, scripture-based argument to back up your doctrine? It seems so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This can't be true as I have no teachers, save one.

Those that know Him will hear His voice.
Those that don't know Him, he will come as a thief. I am unaware of any thief that comes shouting before he robs you.

You're taking the analogy too far. The idea of His second coming being like a thief is in the fact that it will happen suddenly and will be unexpected. When the shout happens, His wrath will immediately follow. It isn't as if people will have any time to react after hearing the shout.

Paul taught that on the same day that Jesus is gathered to His people, He will take vengeance on His enemies. Why do you not accept what Paul taught?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice that the same day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints", which is clearly the same day as the rapture (1 Thess 4:14-17), He will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Why do you have a 7 year time period separating those events when Paul did not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm always amazed at those that look for the magic verse that will prove when Jesus comes. Here it is, right in the text so you can see.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We're just looking for a coherent presentation of scripture that supports your pre-trib doctrine. You seem to be completely unable to provide that. You just share several scriptures that you think support your doctrine while providing no explanation whatsoever for how they support your doctrine.

And you did that again here. How in the world does Matthew 24:44 support the pre-trib rapture theory? You somehow think just quoting that verse supports your case. Hardly. Explain why you think it supports your case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If this were truth why does the author of Hebrews tell us Christ shall appear the second time, and say nothing about a third appearance?

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Exactly. And why did the angels say nothing about Him coming a third time here, but only referenced ONE TIME that He will come from heaven in the same manner He left to go to heaven.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Where does it say anywhere that He will come in like manner as He was seen going to heaven TWICE in the future? It doesn't. He is coming from heaven ONCE in the future and only ONCE. The idea of Him coming down from heaven and then going back to heaven and then coming down from heaven again after that is completely ridiculous and not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No! This is YOUR <spiritual israel's view... talking about people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God>. WPM never said such thing or made such implication, but on the contrary gave only SCRIPTURE saying and or implying what Paul says, the dead shall rise and we who are alive at his Coming SHALL BE CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE.
In other words, YOU <spiritual israel> is talking UNTRUTH about people, the Amillennials like WPM.

What?! I am an Amillennialist and agree with WPM. You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. Read it again.

 

[WPM]

Here is an example of our conversation.

WPM: The Pretribulation Fix Your Car is a false teaching. Here's the Mechanics Manual. If the Pretribulation Fix Your Car is true find me one chapter in the manual that will show me which part will fix my transmission, and motor and get me 30 miles a gallon.

The Light: There isn't one.

WPM: See I told you it's a false teaching. Hey look, everyone. The Pretribulation Fix Your Car is a false teaching. You have to be taught this nonsense. It's not in the Mechanics Manual. I'm just asking for one chapter, and no one can do it.

The Light: Well, if you go to Chapter 4 it will tell you about torque converters for your transmission. If you go to Chapter 8 is will tell you about valves for your engine and if you go to Chapter 12 it can tell you how to increase your gas mileage.

WPM: See I told you. You have to be taught this stuff. You have provided nothing. I'm only asking of for one chapter, and it can't be done. I told you, false teaching.

The Light: Mmmm.

You have to be kidding. You have absolutely zero evidence to support 2 future coming. You know that! Pretrib is an extra-biblical invention. There is only one future coming. Hello! Because you have zero proof-texts you have to cobble Scripture together like the JWs and Mormons to say what it does not say. They also have a complex Mechanics Manual to support their error. At least you admit you have no Scripture that supports your speculations. Many of us learned this years ago and abandoned it. I encourage you to do the same. It is a Jesuit doctrine foisted upon evangelical Protestantism.

 

[ScottA]

This is absurd nonsense. He did not begin returning 2,000 years ago. Scripture repeatedly talks of His return as a future event (not one that had already begun) at which time all of the dead in Christ will be raised and all in Christ will be changed. The order of resurrections Paul gave in 1 Cor 15:22-23 was that Christ's was first and then next in order are all those who belong to Him at His future second coming. This will happen when the last trumpet sounds. It's not as if each person has their own last trumpet that sounds.

Everyone who has testified that Jesus has come into them, are witnesses to His return.