More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[WPM]

You are diverting. I did not say the "strongman" could not apply to Satan. I said it was being applied to the exorcism of demons--not just Satan!

The point I was making is the prevailing over Satan in the NT era is not the same thing as complete victory over Satan. While God prevails with each success of the Gospel being preached, demons are bound, to some extent. But Satan is *imprisoned* at the 2nd Coming. The point is, there is a very big difference between being *imprisoned* and being "bound" for a particular activity.

Where are we told that "binding the strong man" is permanent in the case of exorcism? On the contrary, we are told that a demoniac can be exorcised and then have 7 more demons return. So there is no sense here of a permanent binding, such as we have with an "imprisonment!"

Jesus said in Luke 11:21-22, “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The strongman was bound 2000 years ago according to Jesus. He invaded the devil’s house, chained him and took a spoil. We are part of that spoil. This is figurative language.

• Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
• Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
• Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

The binding of Satan simply describes the legal restraints placed upon him after the cross that limits his capacity to do whatever he wants to do and go wherever he wants to go. Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. He is a defeated foe through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The restraint spoken about in Revelation 20 simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. The heathen were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection; but now, a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) as he once did because we now have the truth as a result of the Church’s expansion into the nations.

I John 3:8 declares, “For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

As you study the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ you will see ultimate spiritual domination in operation.

 

[WPM]

I'm not fighting with anybody. You're the one doing the "fighting!"

I'm just giving you my opinion and my informed interpretation of these passages. Zech 12 is being referred to in Rev 1, such that they are the *same event.* You may not agree--too bad!

You are fighting with the Word. That is why you cannot take it literal. Once again, you ducked around the evidence above. You have to. It exposes Premil. John 12:31-33 forbids your thesis. You will never rip it out of the sacred text.

 

[robert derrick]

I never knew prophecy of Scripture is about what will not happen.

It would indeed fill up the world with books, to prophecy about all the things that will not happen in the future.

The Lord shalt not judge and rule them on the earth.

Neither the moon. Not Saturn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are fighting with the Word. That is why you cannot take it literal. Once again, you ducked around the evidence above. You have to. It exposes Premil. John 12:31-33 forbids your thesis. You will never rip it out of the sacred text.

I do take the Scriptures literally, Zech 12, Rev 1, and Rev 20. But I don't want to become quarrelsome about it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus said in Luke 11:21-22, “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

Just a moment ago you chastised me for not being literal. Now you're arguing for being symbolic? In fact, I see Zech 12, Rev 1, Rev 20, and the incarceration of Satan as being quite literal. I do think of a literal "chain," which may not be the kind of chain we normally see. But we are told a "chain" is used.

Rev 20.1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

You either believe that or not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. There is no such thing as your future "kingdom age." There are only 2 ages, this age and the age to come. There is no age to come after the age to come. That is more fake news. That is another invention of your own mind. Where does it state this in Revelation 20? I will not hold my breath waiting on the answer. The answer will be like every other that I present to you. It will be ignored. That is because you foist so much on Rev 20 that does not exist in there. I add it to my list of your inventions and avoidances:

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
2. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
3. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
4. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
5. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it mention a "kingdom age"?

I think I've already answered all of these kinds of questions. As I've already said, we disagree on the use of the word "rule" where its meaning is determined by context. Rev 20 plainly indicates that at the resurrection of those fit for ruling with Christ Satan will be judged and bound. Yes, the glorified saints do cast judgments against Satan and his angels!

And I've told you we had a difference on the matter of Christ being King of creation and Christ being King on earth in the sense of suppressing human rebellion. Re-stating our positions will not change things. We believe what we believe.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Surely... IN YOUR <eschatology.>
You won't waste my time on YOUR <eschatology.>

As you wish...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Speak for yourself. Yes, in your false teaching, not in the teaching of the NT. Your teachers have deceived you. Premil has a big devil and a small God. Premil has a big devil and an impotent powerless church. Amils have the opposite. They have a conquering Christ who has empowered the Church to invade Satan’s territory and see him defeated everywhere the light of the Gospel is received throughout the nations.

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. It's amazing how blind you are to your own attitude, to your carnal need to impose your views on others?? Don't you know how to have a friendly discussion? Are you only friendly with those who agree with Amill? Like it or not, when you post a public thread, and I have a view on the subject, I'm going to feel free to express my opinion, whether you value it or not. Others may find some value in it.

 

[ScottA]

It is good to understand and apply Jesus' referring to his going away in Luke (22 et al x 4 Gospels) to prepare a place for his redeemed, to the Last Day of Judgement and His Second Coming, but Jesus was speaking in these Scriptures in the first place of his imminent Suffering, Death and Resurrection as the Foundation and Beginning of His Eternal Reign "on earth as it is in heaven". He taught his disciples to pray "Thy Kingdom come" in more than one way and on more than one occasion.

Yes, there are many ways to consider the information given. However, both passages of scripture are correct--the one indicating not here on earth, and also the one that indicates "on earth as it is in heaven."

There is no contradiction.

The passages that indicate that Jesus is not going to come and join us here, but is instead going to come for us 'that where He is, we might be also", speaks of heaven and earth being different--the very reason He prayed "on earth as it is in heaven."

But then, it is clear that the goal is that heaven and earth be the same for the time of His reign here--which is stated as a finite time in the case of this old earth...and yet not for the "new heaven and earth."

So then, when the dividing lines are correctly understood and drawn (by "rightly dividing the word of truth") there is no contradiction.

 

[WPM]

I do take the Scriptures literally, Zech 12, Rev 1, and Rev 20. But I don't want to become quarrelsome about it.

Jesus actually applies it to the cross. How can you fight that? All because you will not let go of Premil. Of course, mankind will look upon Him when He returns. Do you deny that John 19:30-37 is speaking about the cross and Zechariah 12:2-3 to that - yes or no?

 

[WPM]

You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. It's amazing how blind you are to your own attitude, to your carnal need to impose your views on others?? Don't you know how to have a friendly discussion? Are you only friendly with those who agree with Amill? Like it or not, when you post a public thread, and I have a view on the subject, I'm going to feel free to express my opinion, whether you value it or not. Others may find some value in it.

Please note, you go like this when I expose your beliefs. You do not like that. That is where you respond with ad hominem. It is your beliefs that I reject. I also reject your mode of interpretation. Again, you do not like that being challenged. But I reserve the right to do that when you make statments like you are here. They do not align with Scripture or good interpretation. I am not trying to antagonize you. Sorry if it comes across like that.

Hopefully you will not go to the next step that you usually go to.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus actually applies it to the cross. How can you fight that? All because you will not let go of Premil. Of course, mankind will look upon Him when He returns. Do you deny that John 19:30-37 is speaking about the cross and Zechariah 12:2-3 to that - yes or no?

Yes, it was, in my view, a preliminary fulfillment. It identified *when* Christ was pierced, and not strictly, when all who would see it would see it.

The following passage speaks of the same "piercing," which happened at the Cross. But in this passage, the viewing takes place at his "coming with the clouds." Do you accept this or not?

You've already accepted that Rev 1.7 takes place at the 2nd Coming. So why do you think that John 19.30-37 fully answers the question?

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please note, you go like this when I expose your beliefs. You do not like that. That is where you respond with ad hominem. It is your beliefs that I reject. I also reject your mode of interpretation. Again, you do not like that being challenged. But I reserve the right to do that when you make statments like you are here. They do not align with Scripture or good interpretation. I am not trying to antagonize you. Sorry if it comes across like that.

Hopefully you will not go to the next step that you usually go to.

No, I try to avoid this "attitude issue" like the plague. You can't let go of it, apparently?

 

[WPM]

And I've told you we had a difference on the matter of Christ being King of creation and Christ being King on earth in the sense of suppressing human rebellion. Re-stating our positions will not change things. We believe what we believe.

No. You make extra-biblical statements these that you cannot support and then when challenged respond like this. You need to take ownership of these and stop making them. This reinforces the Amil charge that Premil is a extra-biblical doctrine. This is more than you denying Christ's current kingship, messianic kingdom and reign over His enemies. It is about you inventing an imaginary future age that will never happen.

 

[WPM]

No, I try to avoid this "attitude issue" like the plague. You can't let go of it, apparently?

That is good. I appreciate progress. Good! We can therefore move forward keeping to the beliefs and mode of interpretation we disagree on.

 

[WPM]

Yes, it was, in my view, a preliminary fulfillment. It identified *when* Christ was pierced, and not strictly, when all who would see it would see it.

The following passage speaks of the same "piercing," which happened at the Cross. But in this passage, the viewing takes place at his "coming with the clouds." Do you accept this or not?

You've already accepted that Rev 1.7 takes place at the 2nd Coming. So why do you think that John 19.30-37 fully answers the question?

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

You are seeing double on every key prediction in Scripture. The only contradictions are in your head. You have refused to accept the fact that we are in the last days now and that they end on the last day - Jesus return. That is because it exposes your theology.

Premils argue for 2 new covenants (one for the redeemed and 1 for ethnic Israel), 2 peoples of God, 2 bindings of Satan, 2 last days periods, 2 individual last days, 2 (or 3) ends, 2 resurrection days, 2 judgment days, 2 new heavens and new earth, 2 weddings of the elect, 2 future glorifications and raptures.

What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?

 

[WPM]

I think I've already answered all of these kinds of questions. As I've already said, we disagree on the use of the word "rule" where its meaning is determined by context. Rev 20 plainly indicates that at the resurrection of those fit for ruling with Christ Satan will be judged and bound. Yes, the glorified saints do cast judgments against Satan and his angels!

And I've told you we had a difference on the matter of Christ being King of creation and Christ being King on earth in the sense of suppressing human rebellion. Re-stating our positions will not change things. We believe what we believe.

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
2. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
3. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
4. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
5. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it mention a "kingdom age"?

 

[WPM]

Just a moment ago you chastised me for not being literal. Now you're arguing for being symbolic? In fact, I see Zech 12, Rev 1, Rev 20, and the incarceration of Satan as being quite literal. I do think of a literal "chain," which may not be the kind of chain we normally see. But we are told a "chain" is used.

Rev 20.1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

You either believe that or not.

Amillennialists do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

Now, will you address what I wrote and stop skirting around it?

 

[The Light]

What happens at the coming of Christ occurs suddenly. It is totally destructive. I showed you the evidence.

Yes and I showed you the evidence in Isaiah 34 that the day of the wrath lasts one year. And like I said that is not the only evidence.
So here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The earth is reaped, and the great multitude goes to heaven. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

Is your tribulation period 1 year long after the second coming or is the 1st year of your millennium the wrath of God?

The Church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. So just as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood, so will the Church be in heaven before the final week begins. Part of Israel will be able to see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the second harvest. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. They will be raptured just before wrath as the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came, and so it will be at the second harvest.

 

[WPM]

Yes and I showed you the evidence in Isaiah 34 that the day of the wrath lasts one year. And like I said that is not the only evidence.
So here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The earth is reaped, and the great multitude goes to heaven. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.


The Church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. So just as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood, so will the Church be in heaven before the final week begins. Part of Israel will be able to see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the second harvest. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. They will be raptured just before wrath as the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came, and so it will be at the second harvest.

Are you saying there will be a rapture followed by a 7 years tribulation followed by another coming of Christ?