Missing from bible

[KingJ]

1. That you think your common sense is superior to the holy spirit's prodding in our minds and hearts, 2. is very telling and quite sad. 3. You obviously have no trust or understanding of the Holy Spirit whatsoever in your life. 4. Have you actually ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

1. Assumption, please quote.
2. No, that you talk like this is sad.
3. Assumption, please quote.
4. Yes and this is how I clearly know / better then ever before grasp that God does not do cheap parlor tricks for supposed followers battling with their faith and confidence / feeling of selfworth from a lack of magic ;).

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

Since i believe what the Scriptures state,that means I believe:

Oz

Scripture also says we are all adulterers and that adulterers must be stoned to death.

KingJ,

Since i believe what the Scriptures state,that means I believe:

• Anyone who believes in Jesus shall do the works he did and even greater works than these (John 14:12);
• God gives the gifts of miracles (1 Cor 12:28);
• God gives the gifts of healing to some people (1 Cor 12:9; I Cor 12: 28: 1 Cor 12:30).

As long as these verses are in the Bible, I'll believe God's ability to perform supernatural gifts. And how long will these gifts continue? They will continue until we 'see him 'face to face' (1 Cor 13:12).

Oz

You pass on Rom 14:5. So we should not be rude to each other. This is a forgivable disagreement. You just not ''getting it'' though.

You need to zoom out and look at the full picture from beginning to end.

I am not espousing these things do not happen. Rather that God prefers not doing them. I have already raised a few reasons which you brushed off. They were all valid points. We have to grasp and agree on Christain common sense before we can tackle any scripture.

Why did God put mankind on earth? Why does God prefer mankind live by faith? We cannot be so close minded and read this scripture you quoted in complete isolation. We have to grasp God's heart behind these matters.

Cessationism makes a lot of sense when considering all things / hermeneutics / Christian common sense.

 

[OzSpen]

Scripture also says we are all adulterers and that adulterers must be stoned to death.

Where in the New Covenant does it state that?

 

[KingJ]

Where in the New Covenant does it state that?

You don't get to do that. You show IQ with my statement but none with yours.

 

[OzSpen]

You don't get to do that. You show IQ with my statement but none with yours.

I'm still waiting. Where in the NT does it state that all adulterers must be stoned to death?

I live under the New Covenant and not under the Old Covenant. So do you!

 

[Wormwood]

Hey guys,

This is an important discussion and I want to encourage you all to talk about these issues. I have created a thread that is specifically focused on this topic so the conversation can carry on there. Remember, please keep it civil and focused on the doctrines and Scriptures rather than personal attacks. Here is the link.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22482-does-the-church-still-possess-miraculous-gifts-today/

 

[KingJ]

I live under the New Covenant and not under the Old Covenant. So do you!

Are you? If you expecting God to do a miracle on a promise basis you cannot get more old covenant.

We can't test, demand, claim or even expect something like a man jumping out a wheel chair. In the OT they could. I would expect you to grasp this given you can grasp stoning is OT.

Lets take your first line as an example: ''Anyone who believes in Jesus shall do the works he did and even greater works than these''.

What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 vs 5000? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000.

 

[OzSpen]

Are you? If you expecting God to do a miracle on a promise basis you cannot get more old covenant.

We can't test, demand, claim or even expect something like a man jumping out a wheel chair. In the OT they could. I would expect you to grasp this given you can grasp stoning is OT.

Lets take your first line as an example: ''Anyone who believes in Jesus shall do the works he did and even greater works than these''.

What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 vs 5000? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000.

That's a red herring.

Do you live under the New Covenant or under the Old Covenant where adulterers are stoned?

 

[StanJ]

Without painful common sense / IE sanity, you can completely fail at hermeneutics as Calvinism does. As you are doing.

Believing you need faith in God of the universe to be able to make a man jump out a wheel chair = Working brain fail, Christian fail / total insanity.
Believing God is eager to show off for our petty carnal wish for magic = Working brain fail, Christian fail / total insanity. This is ironcially what many healing preachers are suggesting if we are just dead honest and call a spade a spade.

The verse you quoted needs other scripture. Like try reading that with 1 Cor 11:31 or 1 Cor 6:1-9.

Your cognitive dissonance is showing here. We're not talking about Calvinism per se. Maybe you didn't understand the OP?

Believing that you can make a man jump out of his wheelchair of your own power is human superciliousness. The Insanity part enters into play when you think God has nothing at all to do with our progression in medical science or any other science. If you believe that we do it all and man has no need of God then what exactly are you doing here?

I suggest you try actually making a point instead of giving scriptures to people to read who do understand them but have no idea why you're quoting them.

 

[FHII]

I find it even sadder that you want to define God's supernatural ability to perform miracles, as magic.

I can't remember the last time I agreed with king J in anything, but based on the post of his you cited, I don't think that is what he was doing.

At best perhaps he could've worded it differently. But I agree with him on this IF I understand him correctly.

Seeing someone get out of a wheelchair would be amazing, but there are probably plenty other miracles in that person's life. Furthermore, if you have to see him get up to believe God is working in his life, you're looking at the wrong thing.

 

[StanJ]

I can't remember the last time I agreed with king J in anything, but based on the post of his you cited, I don't think that is what he was doing.
At best perhaps he could've worded it differently. But I agree with him on this IF I understand him correctly.
Seeing someone get out of a wheelchair would be amazing, but there are probably plenty other miracles in that person's life. Furthermore, if you have to see him get up to believe God is working in his life, you're looking at the wrong thing.

The issue here, is describing miracles as magic, when magic is condemned in the Bible. Not sure how you're not getting this?

 

[OzSpen]

I can't remember the last time I agreed with king J in anything, but based on the post of his you cited, I don't think that is what he was doing.

At best perhaps he could've worded it differently. But I agree with him on this IF I understand him correctly.

Seeing someone get out of a wheelchair would be amazing, but there are probably plenty other miracles in that person's life. Furthermore, if you have to see him get up to believe God is working in his life, you're looking at the wrong thing.

This is a straw man argument. At no time have I given the example of a person getting out of a wheel chair. That's KingJ's invention against me.

At no time have I ever suggested that I need to see the wheelchair man to be healed to believe in God. That's your invention.

Let's get back on topic. What is missing from the Bible? Should this be in some of the Bibles?

In Tobit 6:2-8, 16-17 (RSV), it states:

[2] Then the young man went down to wash himself. A fish leaped up from the river and would have swallowed the young man;
[3] and the angel said to him, “Catch the fish.” So the young man seized the fish and threw it up on the land.
[4] Then the angel said to him, “Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.”
[5] So the young man did as the angel told him; and they roasted and ate the fish.

And they both continued on their way until they came near to Ecbatana.

[6] Then the young man said to the angel, “Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?”
[7] He replied, “As for the heart and liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again.
[8] And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured”....

[16] When you enter the bridal chamber, you shall take live ashes of incense and lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish so as to make a smoke.
[17] Then the demon will smell it and flee away, and will never again return. And when you approach her, rise up, both of you, and cry out to the merciful God, and he will save you and have mercy on you. Do not be afraid, for she was destined for you from eternity. You will save her, and she will go with you, and I suppose that you will have children by her.” When Tobias heard these things, he fell in love with her and yearned deeply for her.

Should this part of the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical Books be in Scripture? It was in the KJV of 1611, but was not eliminated until 1885.

Oz

 

[KingJ]

1. Your cognitive dissonance is showing here. 2. We're not talking about Calvinism per se. 3. Maybe you didn't understand the OP?

4. Believing that you can make a man jump out of his wheelchair of your own power is human superciliousness.

5. The Insanity part enters into play when you think God has nothing at all to do with our progression in medical science or any other science.

6. If you believe that we do it all and man has no need of God then what exactly are you doing here?

7. I suggest you try actually making a point instead of giving scriptures to people to read who do understand them but have no idea why you're quoting them.

1. I find your statement quite ironic .
2. Lateral thought.
3. Say what? :huh:
4. Well done, you found another word. Yes we can say that. We can also call it magic.
5. Well yes that is insane too. No, that is not what I was saying. Why are you raising this?
6. Say what? Do you believe I believe our brains are not God given? What is going on up there Stan?
7. Do you understand them? If we take your scripture in isolation we can end arguments with ''I am right because the Holy Spirit told me so''. The scripture I gave is Paul telling us to use that God given grey matter between our ears. Not sure how you think its not relevant...

 

[r4hnsn]

i dont mean to suggest the bible we know is wrong. the fundamentals are the same in most the bibles, dont steal, murder, Father sent Jesus, etc. but there are many things that seem to be missing, the fallen ones from gen, when Jesus said we could move a mountain, when our Lord stopped the sun, when Elisha was able to watch his servant with namaan from a far, when the bones of Elijah brought the dead body back to life. i think all these things happened , not metaphors, not fairy tail hyperbole but 100 percent real. i would like to know how.

hi Jaybird its good you believe Gods miracles actually happened. Some scriptures are hyperbole such as "born speaking lies", babies don`t speak when born, let alone tell lies eh? But all the acts of God are by His power, the same power that keeps the universe spinning in relative unison.
The bible is not there for our curiosity, but for our salvation. By this i mean it leads us in the path of righteousness and reveals God to us in the myriads of His holiness and love. It has been also called B.I.B.L.E Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
I think you are "a man without guile" very refreshing.

But seriously it only tells us what we need to know for a life of faith in God, it is not a how all things work or came about for that would take an impractical sized book we couldn't carry around from house to house or to church etc.

 

[KingJ]

The issue here, is describing miracles as magic, when magic is condemned in the Bible. Not sure how you're not getting this?

Magic is not condemned. ''Sorcerery, charmers, mediums, necromancer and one who inquires of the dead'', is.

Now we can call that magic. Just as we can call illusionists magicians. But for some reason you are not grasping what has been said to you twice already....''the word magic can be used whenever a supernatural force is involved in something unbeleivable happening''. IE we can call healing magical.

This is the third post dedicated to helping you understand this. I should not have needed to post a single one.

 

[KingJ]

Do you live under the New Covenant or under the Old Covenant where adulterers are stoned?

Do you live under the New Covenant or under the Old Covenant where promises could be claimed?

 

[OzSpen]

Do you live under the New Covenant or under the Old Covenant where promises could be claimed?

Please answer my question.

When you do this, you are giving me a red herring fallacy where you fail to deal with the issue I raise.

 

[OzSpen]

Magic is not condemned. ''Sorcerery, charmers, mediums, necromancer and one who inquires of the dead'', is.

Now we can call that magic. Just as we can call illusionists magicians. But for some reason you are not grasping what has been said to you twice already....''the word magic can be used whenever a supernatural force is involved in something unbeleivable happening''. IE we can call healing magical.

This is the third post dedicated to helping you understand this. I should not have needed to post a single one.

A full definition of 'magic' by the Merriam-Webster dictionary is,

1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over
natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations

2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
'a power that allows people (such as witches and wizards) to do impossible things
by saying special words or performing special actions' (S v magic).

To apply these definitions to miracles in the New Covenant is to defy the basics of definition.

Oz

 

[KingJ]

Please answer my question.

When you do this, you are giving me a red herring fallacy where you fail to deal with the issue I raise.

It was answered in the third sentence of post # 167.

 

[OzSpen]

Are you? If you expecting God to do a miracle on a promise basis you cannot get more old covenant.

We can't test, demand, claim or even expect something like a man jumping out a wheel chair. In the OT they could. I would expect you to grasp this given you can grasp stoning is OT.

Lets take your first line as an example: ''Anyone who believes in Jesus shall do the works he did and even greater works than these''.

What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 vs 5000? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000.

You are inventing again. This is a straw man fallacy. We cannot have a rational conversation when you continue to do this.

I will leave this conversation with you because you have abandoned reasonable conversation with me.

Bye, Bye
Oz