Miscellaneous observations on the Pre Trib Rapture

[PinSeeker]

Rev 14 :14 transforms into acts 1 , matt25, and Rev 19 ?????

I would say "correlates" rather than "transforms," but yes:

• just prior to what we see in Matthew 25:31
• Acts 1:11
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
• just prior to what we see in Revelation 7:7
• Revelation 14:14
• Revelation 19:11-14, and...
• Revelation 20:9b.

<smile>

How does a honest student manage to do that?????

Hmmm, well, I guess the only way to answer that... <smile> ...is to say there are... different "kinds"... of "honest students" of God's Word... <smile> ...which is unfortunate (the different kinds thing), but one day that will no longer be the case. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

The whole idea of a rapture to heaven is gross stupidity and a direct refutation of scripture. Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13

Hmmm.

Jesus didn't say "no one goes to heaven", that's not there. So your argument is baseless, at least on this point.

What Jesus actually said was,

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ascended here is active voice, Jesus is saying, no one has lifted themselves up into heaven, except Himself. But there is no such statement that no one is taken into heaven, it's not there.

So if the grammar is important to you, that's the grammar.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

The two witnesses are raised from the dead the same time the beast is destroyed

Hmmm, the two witnesses of Revelation 11... Well, we know what witnesses are in Revelation, right? I mean, Jesus is the Faithful Witness, as we see in Revelation 1:5, 2:13, and 3:14... But in agreement with Revelation as a whole we find here a symbolic vision of Christian witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4; lampstands give light, of course), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the witness of the lampstand-churches of Revelation 1:20. Thus they symbolize churches rather than specific human individuals. Two rather than seven lampstands are mentioned to imitate the pattern of Zechariah 4 and of Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3-4; cf. Deuteronomy 17:6; Luke 10:1). So, Revelation 11:1-14 gives a general visionary representation of the witness of the church and God’s preservation and vindication of the witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4), that is, two churches (Revelation 1:20).

Either you believe the dead don't rise when Christ comes or you believe the beast is not destroyed when Christ comes.

Both are true.

Scripture shows the dead rising the same time the beast is destroyed. Thats not hard to understand.

Yes, we can say that it's all one big event, really, Christ's return and the final defeat of Satan, the second resurrection of all (many resurrected to eternal life and the others resurrected to judgment), the final Judgment, the subsequent sending away of the wicked and the ushering in of the Kingdom in its fullness, the New Heaven and New Earth.

Grace and peace to you, tailgator.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus didn't say "no one goes to heaven", that's not there. So your argument is baseless, at least on this point.

I would agree with you, if only there was other scriptural support for people to go and live in heaven.
But there isn't any. Even Elijah is never said to be living in heaven.

What there IS; is many verses which confirm that humans living in heaven is impossible and will never happen.
After it's all over and the new heavens and earth appear, God will come to dwell with His peoples.

Will you and all who grip onto the rapture theory, just continue to reject the clear evidence against it?
According the many Prophesies, you will; and it will only be after the terrible Day of the Lords wrath, that understanding will come. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:24

 

[marks]

I would agree with you, if only there was other scriptural support for people to go and live in heaven.
But there isn't any. Even Elijah is never said to be living in heaven.

Do you agree that Jesus didn't say in that passage, No one goes to heaven? Do we at least agree over His statement in that place?

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

I would agree with you, if only there was other scriptural support for people to go and live in heaven.
But there isn't any. Even Elijah is never said to be living in heaven.

Well... do you suppose Jesus was lying to the thief crucified on His right when He said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"...? Surely not...

...humans living in heaven is impossible and will never happen.

Even in eternity? Do you not believe, Keraz, that someday... well, in the words of the hymnist... earth and heaven will be one?

After it's all over and the new heavens and earth appear, God will come to dwell with His peoples.

Will we all be ghosts? <smile> I'm... playing with you a bit, here, Keraz. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Keraz.

 

[Keraz]

Well... do you suppose Jesus was lying to the thief crucified on His right when He said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"...? Surely not...

There is a simple and valid rendering of that verse. Jesus said: I tell you today; you will be with Me in paradise.
i Peter 3:19 proves Jesus didn't go directly to heaven, at His death.

Even in eternity? Do you not believe, Keraz, that someday... well, in the words of the hymnist... earth and heaven will be one?

I have already shown how after the GWT Judgment and the new heavens and earth come; God will dwell with mankind.

Will we all be ghosts? <smile> I'm... playing with you a bit, here, Keraz. <smile>

Not a frivolous subject.
All those found worthy and have their names in the Book of Life, will be made immortal. They will exist forever with God in the Eternal Spiritual realm. Rev 21-22

Do you agree that Jesus didn't say in that passage, No one goes to heaven?

I checked the Greek Interlinear for John 3:13.......no one has gone up to heaven......
To hang a whole doctrine on the word 'has'. as though going to heaven will be possible in the future, is big stretch. Actually; an impossible assumption, which Jesus demonstrated when He Ascended to heaven and there has been no one go there since.
Only the souls of the Christian martyrs, kept under the heavenly Altar.

The incredible dream that many have of being rapture removed to heaven when bad things start to happen, is lie from the depths of hell.
A Satanic fable and a false hope, when we should be placing our trust on the Lord for His protection.

 

[marks]

I checked the Greek Interlinear for John 3:13.......no one has gone up to heaven......
To hang a whole doctrine on the word 'has'. as though going to heaven will be possible in the future, is big stretch. Actually; an impossible assumption, which Jesus demonstrated when He Ascended to heaven and there has been no one go there since.
Only the souls of the Christian martyrs, kept under the heavenly Altar.

The point is the active voice to the verb ascended. No one has gone up to heaven on their own steam, except Jesus, is what He is saying.

And Jesus proved the resurrection to the Saducees based on the tense of the word "is". So don't nitpick because you say you don't see it enough in the Bible.

No one has of themselves gone up to heaven except Jesus, but that says nothing about whether or not anyone was or will be taken into heaven by God.

Much love!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Already have.

The two witnesses are raised from the dead the same time the beast is destroyed

Either you believe the dead don't rise when Christ comes or you believe the beast is not destroyed when Christ comes.

Scripture shows the dead rising the same time the beast is destroyed.Thats not hard to understand .

The beast is thrown in the LOF AFTER the white horses coming.

It seems you are placing every "42 months"(1290 days) spoken of as starting and stopping the exact same day.
1) is Daniel's 7 years off the table?
2) is every "pretrib setting rapture" off the table?
3) are you saying the rapture of the church is at the white horses?
4) are you saying Lot was NOT gathered pretrib?
5) Noah not gathered pretrib?
6) the acts 1 "Like manner" exit of Jesus was actually way off? ( due to your setting of exactly OPPOSITE in your doctrine of Acts 1 "like manner"
7) In mat 25 you have half the saints left behind but Jesus returning to the same location of those left behind. Just bizarre.
We must say that tge groom never took the wise bride into any chamber with a door.
( only heaven fits as their destination.)
8) ask your self why we have a hundred YouTube postribber teachers, and none ever touch " like manner", the bride, mat 25, the normal life setting of EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, Daniel's 7th week, the ac killing all refusing the mark, etc.(many more verses)

A TON OF DYNAMICS COMPLETELY VOID of their doctrine.
Instead, your Doctrine, as in all postrib rapture doctrine, invokes one phrase or one word smoking guns supposidly making verses vanish.

 

[tailgator]

The beast is thrown in the LOF AFTER the white horses coming.

It seems you are placing every "42 months"(1290 days) spoken of as starting and stopping the exact same day.
1) is Daniel's 7 years off the table?
2) is every "pretrib setting rapture" off the table?
3) are you saying the rapture of the church is at the white horses?
4) are you saying Lot was NOT gathered pretrib?
5) Noah not gathered pretrib?
6) the acts 1 "Like manner" exit of Jesus was actually way off? ( due to your setting of exactly OPPOSITE in your doctrine of Acts 1 "like manner"
7) In mat 25 you have half the saints left behind but Jesus returning to the same location of those left behind. Just bizarre.
We must say that tge groom never took the wise bride into any chamber with a door.
( only heaven fits as their destination.)
8) ask your self why we have a hundred YouTube postribber teachers, and none ever touch " like manner", the bride, mat 25, the normal life setting of EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, Daniel's 7th week, the ac killing all refusing the mark, etc.(many more verses)

A TON OF DYNAMICS COMPLETELY VOID of their doctrine.
Instead, your Doctrine, as in all postrib rapture doctrine, invokes one phrase or one word smoking guns supposidly making verses vanish.

You have so many questions.
If you would be so kind to ask them one at a time ,I would gladly answer all of your questions for you

At the moment,I'm at work on my lunch break.I don't really have a lot of time on my hands.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is a simple and valid rendering of that verse. Jesus said: I tell you today; you will be with Me in paradise.

Right, and they were both in paradise, that day. Neither one of them physically, as Jesus's body was obviously in the tomb, and presumably the thief's was, too, but still, regarding their spirits ~ Jesus committed His spirit to the Father and breathed His last (Luke 23:46)... He said "It is finished," and gave up his spirit (John 19:30) ~ in paradise, just as Jesus told him they would be...

I Peter 3:19 proves Jesus didn't go directly to heaven, at His death.

Disagree. I mean, physically speaking, as I said above, neither one of them did; neither Jesus nor the thief, and only Jesus is physically there now. To 1 Peter 3:19, you will know, I'm sure, there is much debate about the identity of these spirits... The Greek term 'pneuma' ('spirit') ~ in either singular or plural ~ can mean either human spirits or angels, depending on the context (cf. Numbers 16:22, 27:16; Acts 7:59; Hebrews 12:23; etc.). Here, "spirits" ('pneumasin', plural) refers to the unsaved (human spirits) of Noah's day. Christ, "in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18), proclaimed the Gospel "in the days of Noah" (v.20) through Noah. The unbelievers who heard Christ's preaching "did not obey" and are now suffering judgment (they are "spirits in prison," v.19) ~ in contrast to the spirit of the thief crucified on Jesus's right, whose spirit is with Christ now in paradise, along with the spirits of all believers who have passed from this life even up to now. This view is supported in at least three ways:

• Peter calls Noah a "herald of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), where "herald" represents Greek kenya ("preacher"), which corresponds to the noun kerysso, which translates to "proclaim," in 1 Peter 3:19
• Peter says the "Spirit of Christ" was speaking through the Old Testament prophets (1 Peter 1:11); thus Christ could have been ~ was ~ speaking through Noah as an Old Testament prophet
• the context indicates that Christ was preaching through Noah, who was in a persecuted minority, and God saved Noah, which is similar to the situation in Peter's time: Christ is now preaching the Gospel through Peter and his readers ~ v.15; Peter is "mak(ing) a defense for the reason for the hope that is in (him)" and exhorts his readers to do the same to "anyone who asks" ~ to a persecuted minority, and God will save them

I have already shown how after the GWT Judgment and the new heavens and earth come; God will dwell with mankind.

Sure; we don't disagree there....

Not a frivolous subject.

No, of course not. I was just conveying the woodenness and shallowness ~ and thus falsity ~ of the idea of a "spirit body" being propagated by some here.

I checked the Greek Interlinear for John 3:13.......no one has gone up to heaven......
To hang a whole doctrine on the word 'has'. as though going to heaven will be possible in the future, is big stretch. Actually; an impossible assumption, which Jesus demonstrated when He Ascended to heaven and there has been no one go there since.

Sure; not physically, no. At the end of the age, and after the final Judgment, heaven will come down to us, and ~ as the wonderful hymn says, "Jesus, Who died, shall be satisfied, and earth and heaven (will) be one" (This is My Father's World).

Only the souls of the Christian martyrs...

All Christians who have died up to now. Certainly, the martyrs who have gone before hold a special place, but in a real sense, all Christians, who are called to, as Paul says, "present (their/our) bodies as a living sacrifice(s), holy and acceptable to God, which is (their/our) spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1) are martyrs in the spiritual sense, which is just as important as the physical,

The incredible dream that many have of being rapture removed to heaven when bad things start to happen, is lie from the depths of hell.

Meh... It's just wrong, Keraz, which we agree on. A "lie from the depths of hell"...? I mean, not to downplay it ~ although, yeah, it may sound like it, but no... it's just wrong.

A Satanic fable and a false hope...

It's just wrong.

...we should be placing our trust on the Lord for His protection.

Sure. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

No one has of themselves gone up to heaven except Jesus, but that says nothing about whether or not anyone was or will be taken into heaven by God.

That God will take humans to heaven, requires Biblical support. Wishful thinking is insufficient.

If rapture believers knew their Bibles and the Prophesies properly, they would know that the Lord has great Promises to His people; of prosperity and safety as they live in all of the holy Land. Before Jesus Returns.
Our destiny and our amazing future!

 

[marks]

Wishful thinking is insufficient.

We agree!

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

...the Lord has great Promises to His people; of prosperity and safety as they live in all of the holy Land.

Right. And never has He promised to remove His people from trial or tribulation or trouble, but to walk with them and deliver them through it.

Before Jesus Returns.

Right... and, well, after, too... <smile> Of course, then, there will be no more trouble of any kind. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Taken]

Pre-Trib = Rapture, Christs Church whole, body, soul, spirit, event of Redemption.

Resurrections applies to all others.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The beast is thrown in the LOF AFTER the white horses coming.

It seems you are placing every "42 months"(1290 days) spoken of as starting and stopping the exact same day.
1) is Daniel's 7 years off the table?
2) is every "pretrib setting rapture" off the table?
3) are you saying the rapture of the church is at the white horses?
4) are you saying Lot was NOT gathered pretrib?
5) Noah not gathered pretrib?
6) the acts 1 "Like manner" exit of Jesus was actually way off? ( due to your setting of exactly OPPOSITE in your doctrine of Acts 1 "like manner"
7) In mat 25 you have half the saints left behind but Jesus returning to the same location of those left behind. Just bizarre.
We must say that tge groom never took the wise bride into any chamber with a door.
( only heaven fits as their destination.)
8) ask your self why we have a hundred YouTube postribber teachers, and none ever touch " like manner", the bride, mat 25, the normal life setting of EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, Daniel's 7th week, the ac killing all refusing the mark, etc.(many more verses)

A TON OF DYNAMICS COMPLETELY VOID of their doctrine.
Instead, your Doctrine, as in all postrib rapture doctrine, invokes one phrase or one word smoking guns supposidly making verses vanish.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That God will take humans to heaven, requires Biblical support. Wishful thinking is insufficient.

If rapture believers knew their Bibles and the Prophesies properly, they would know that the Lord has great Promises to His people; of prosperity and safety as they live in all of the holy Land. Before Jesus Returns.
Our destiny and our amazing future!

Jesus building mansions for saints and believers in heaven in Revelation.

So yes heaven is the destination .

 

[MA2444]

Will you and all who grip onto the rapture theory, just continue to reject the clear evidence against it?
According the many Prophesies, you will; and it will only be after the terrible Day of the Lords wrath, that understanding will come. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:24

I will reject that there is scriptural evidence of no rapture ever happening.

Do you think it will hurt Jesus's feelings that some were watching for Him a lot sooner than most others? I think not!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Already have.

The two witnesses are raised from the dead the same time the beast is destroyed

Either you believe the dead don't rise when Christ comes or you believe the beast is not destroyed when Christ comes.

Scripture shows the dead rising the same time the beast is destroyed.Thats not hard to understand .

The beast is thrown in the LOF AFTER the white horses coming.

It seems you are placing every "42 months"(1290 days) spoken of as starting and stopping the exact same day.
1) is Daniel's 7 years off the table?
2) is every "pretrib setting rapture" off the table?
3) are you saying the rapture of the church is at the white horses?
4) are you saying Lot was NOT gathered pretrib?
5) Noah not gathered pretrib?
6) the acts 1 "Like manner" exit of Jesus was actually way off? ( due to your setting of exactly OPPOSITE in your doctrine of Acts 1 "like manner"
7) In mat 25 you have half the saints left behind but Jesus returning to the same location of those left behind. Just bizarre.
We must say that tge groom never took the wise bride into any chamber with a door.
( only heaven fits as their destination.)
8) ask your self why we have a hundred YouTube postribber teachers, and none ever touch " like manner", the bride, mat 25, the normal life setting of EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, Daniel's 7th week, the ac killing all refusing the mark, etc.(many more verses)

A TON OF DYNAMICS COMPLETELY VOID of their doctrine.
Instead, your Doctrine, as in all postrib rapture doctrine, invokes one phrase or one word smoking guns supposidly making verses vanish

 

[tailgator]

The beast is thrown in the LOF AFTER the white horses coming.

It seems you are placing every "42 months"(1290 days) spoken of as starting and stopping the exact same day.
1) is Daniel's 7 years off the table?
2) is every "pretrib setting rapture" off the table?
3) are you saying the rapture of the church is at the white horses?
4) are you saying Lot was NOT gathered pretrib?
5) Noah not gathered pretrib?
6) the acts 1 "Like manner" exit of Jesus was actually way off? ( due to your setting of exactly OPPOSITE in your doctrine of Acts 1 "like manner"
7) In mat 25 you have half the saints left behind but Jesus returning to the same location of those left behind. Just bizarre.
We must say that tge groom never took the wise bride into any chamber with a door.
( only heaven fits as their destination.)
8) ask your self why we have a hundred YouTube postribber teachers, and none ever touch " like manner", the bride, mat 25, the normal life setting of EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, Daniel's 7th week, the ac killing all refusing the mark, etc.(many more verses)

A TON OF DYNAMICS COMPLETELY VOID of their doctrine.
Instead, your Doctrine, as in all postrib rapture doctrine, invokes one phrase or one word smoking guns supposidly making verses vanish

White horses don't cast the beast into the lake of fire.

White horses don't raise the dead.

White horses are irrelevant.

You should go and learn who raises the dead and who casts the beast into the lake of fire.