Miscellaneous observations on the Pre Trib Rapture

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Miscellaneous observations on pre-trib rapture?:

Is it not better, precious friends, to simply have Scriptural Truth About God's Great GRACE Departure!?

Amen.

 

[rebuilder 454]

False.

The great tribulation which the church comes out of does not last 7 years.

The persecution of the body of Christ in revelation 6 where in their breathren must be killed as they were only last 42 months.

The saints of God are not given into the hand of the beast for no more than 42 months.Not seven years.

Where do you get your unbiblical doctrine from?

Revelation 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



This tribulation of the christians only lasts 42 months.Not ,7 years

3.5 years is true.
It is a segment of tge 7 year trib.
We get 7 years from Daniel.
7 year great trib as Jesus called it.

 

[tailgator]

3.5 years is true.
It is a segment of tge 7 year trib.
We get 7 years from Daniel.
7 year great trib as Jesus called it.

Jesus never said there was a 7 year great trib.

The great tribulation doesn't even last 3.5 years.It wouldnt take the United states armed forces 3.5 years to drop 100 nukes in the middle east.
I'd say it would be over in 45 days .

 

[Davidpt]

Irenaeus, as of today, has the oldest Pre-Trib statement made, in the second century!

If you are going to use this as an argument, you then need to provide that statement in question and a link to it so we can see that statement in context.

 

[KUWN]

If you are going to use this as an argument, you then need to provide that statement in question and a link to it so we can see that statement in context.

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.” Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus never said there was a 7 year great trib.

The great tribulation doesn't even last 3.5 years.It wouldnt take the United states armed forces 3.5 years to drop 100 nukes in the middle east.
I'd say it would be over in 45 days .

The 2 witnesses prophesy 42 months.
That 3.5 years is a portion of time WITHIN A PORTION OF TIME.
7 Years is stated in Daniel.
Take it up with God
He wrote it .

 

[tailgator]

The 2 witnesses prophesy 42 months.
That 3.5 years is a portion of time WITHIN A PORTION OF TIME.
7 Years is stated in Daniel.
Take it up with God
He wrote it .

The 42 months the two witnesses prophecy is the 42 months tribulation of the saints in Israel.

The saints are imprisoned and killed while the two witnesses torment and kill people .Just goes to show you,not everyone follows the lamb.Some prefer to eat and drink with the drunken.

 

[MA2444]

The word rapture is found in the Bible in Paul’s writings, more than once. Those who claim the word Rapture does not appear in the Bible have no biblical basis for such a claim.

The rapture is defined as a single event, whereas apostasy is a process that has no definable beginning and end. An Apostasy is not something you can point to as an event. Apostasy can be interpreted as ‘departure.’

Irenaeus, as of today, has the oldest Pre-Trib statement made, in the second century! No, the Rapture did not first come on the scene with Darby.

The Rapture takes place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord (aka, The Tribulation).

The Rapture has no antecedent signs; it comes as a thief in the night, hence the Rapture could happen any time, it is, unlike the Second Coming, imminent. This was the belief of the early Church.

The primary purpose of the Rapture is to end the Church dispensation and resume the Jewish age. There are 7 years left until the Jewish dispensation is over with.

Rev 3.10 states that the Church will be removed from the time of the Tribulation.

If the Lord will keep us safe during the Trib, as Post-Trib claim, why have a Rapture at all, surely the Lord can keep us safe at the end of the Trib. A Rapture at the time of the second coming serves no prophetic purpose.

If the Rapture and the Second Coming occur together, as post tribbers believe, and all living believers are caught up to meet Jesus and escort him back to earth, then there won’t be any sheep left on earth when Jesus arrives. All that would be left is goats, who will be sentenced to the eternal flame.

The sine qua non of Dispensationism is to keep the Church and Israel separate for all eternity. The Church did not replace Israel, Israel's program is just delayed for as long as the Church Age is present.

The Church is exempt from the wrath of God (1 Thes 5.9, i.e., the Tribulation). The wrath of God is the unique event called the Day of the Lord, which is preceded by the Rapture.

The Church is a mystery in God’s overall plan. No Rapture is mentioned in the OT, while the second coming is taught in the OT.

Of Christ’s return to earth, the Rapture is phase one of the return of Christ, while the second coming is phase two of his coming. I have no problem counting the Rapture as Christ's mystery coming as per 1 Cor 15.

The Rapture could happen at any time,

The Church is a mystery in God’s overall plan. No Rapture is mentioned in the OT, while the second coming is taught in the OT.

I believe that the OT certainly alludes to a Rapture.

And there is more than one rapture in scripture. There was like 6 or 7 of them.

 

[MA2444]

You say the word rapture is in the bible but you can't quote any verse that contains the word.

The people who say the word rapture is not in the bible were telling the truth.

Alright. Imagine this. What you are reading is a Translation of the scriptures and the word that they used in the original language for rapture is Harpazo. The Latin Bible translates it as rapture. English translations translate it with caught up, or snatched up.

That's why you cant find the word Rapture in your Bible! Tada!

 

[MA2444]

You say the word rapture is in the bible but you can't quote any verse that contains the word.

The people who say the word rapture is not in the bible were telling the truth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi
17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.../LatinVulgate

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

www.blueletterbible.org

There you go Brother. There's the verse you wanted. In Latin, In King James English and from BLB.org definisition & useage.

 

[Keraz]

The whole idea of a rapture to heaven is gross stupidity and a direct refutation of scripture. Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
We are plainly told - we must endure until the end. Which does not come until the thousand year rule of Jesus as King over the world, has passed.
There will be no 'transformation of our bodies', when Jesus Returns. 1 Cor 15:50-56 - is a Prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is only then, that Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

Sorry to be a party pooper, but it is far better to know the truths, than to have wild and fanciful expectations.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 42 months the two witnesses prophecy is the 42 months tribulation of the saints in Israel.

The saints are imprisoned and killed while the two witnesses torment and kill people .Just goes to show you,not everyone follows the lamb.Some prefer to eat and drink with the drunken.

This is not different from what I posted.
The 2 witnesses DO NOT enter and form the beginning of the trib.
They enter the picture DURING THE TRIB.
so the trib can not be JUST 3,5 years.
You are making an assumption that is incorrect.
IOW indirectly you are proving it is, in fact, not 3.5 years
Your personal attacks further demonstrate the spirit guiding you.

Without knowing your position, I know your position. (When i make them defy the bible, get to the frustration of going after my character )

Chuckle chuckle

 

[tailgator]

This is not different from what I posted.
The 2 witnesses DO NOT enter and form the beginning of the trib.
They enter the picture DURING THE TRIB.
so the trib can not be JUST 3,5 years.
You are making an assumption that is incorrect.
IOW indirectly you are proving it is, in fact, not 3.5 years
Your personal attacks further demonstrate the spirit guiding you.

Without knowing your position, I know your position. (When i make them defy the bible, get to the frustration of going after my character )

Chuckle chuckle

The 42 months the two witnesses occupy Israel is the 42 months reign of the beast.

At the end of the 42 months,the two witnesses are killed and lay dead for 3.5 days .Then the seventh Trump sounds and the dead are raised.The kingdom of this world becomes Christs.

That's the end of the tribulation.

Chuckle chuckle ,be careful not to choke on that.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is what the Third Temple described by Ezekiel looks like:

This is what the future borders of Israel look like:

When this is fulfilled, there will be practically no unbelievers left on earth, the whole world will believe.

Not "practically none," but none. Yes, the meek shall inherit the earth.

1 Thes 4.17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.18 Ὥστε παρακαλεῖτε ἀλλήλους ἐν τοῖς λόγοις τούτοις.

There it is, just a plain as day.

Yes, the return of Christ will surely be a rapturous event.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 42 months the two witnesses occupy Israel is the 42 months reign of the beast.

At the end of the 42 months,the two witnesses are killed and lay dead for 3.5 days .Then the seventh Trump sounds and the dead are raised.The kingdom of this world becomes Christs.

That's the end of the tribulation.

Chuckle chuckle ,be careful not to choke on that.

Didn't mean to get you frustrated.
But you actually prove my point.
You can not show me where the 2 witnesses enter their time of prophecy AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT as the beast takes power.
As I said, they prophesy for 42 months DURING the 7 yr trib.
Which is a period Of time within a period of time.
You assume they both enter at the same time.
Your assumption you were unable to prove.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not "practically none," but none. Yes, the meek shall inherit the earth.


Yes, the return of Christ will surely be a rapturous event.

Grace and peace to all.

Rev 14:14 is one return, but not the second coming.
Got that out of the bible.

 

[PinSeeker]

Rev 14:14 is one return...

Right, and only one is necessary, of course. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Right, and only one is necessary, of course. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

Rev 14 :14 transforms into acts 1 , matt25, and Rev 19 ?????

How does a honest student manage to do that?????

 

[tailgator]

Didn't mean to get you frustrated.
But you actually prove my point.
You can not show me where the 2 witnesses enter their time of prophecy AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT as the beast takes power.
As I said, they prophesy for 42 months DURING the 7 yr trib.
Which is a period Of time within a period of time.
You assume they both enter at the same time.
Your assumption you were unable to prove.

Already have.

The two witnesses are raised from the dead the same time the beast is destroyed

Either you believe the dead don't rise when Christ comes or you believe the beast is not destroyed when Christ comes.

Scripture shows the dead rising the same time the beast is destroyed.Thats not hard to understand .

 

[marks]

The two witnesses prophesy for 42 months, unable to be killed, until that time is over, and the beast kills them. The beast is given authority for 42 months, ending when Jesus returns. These facts tell us that the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the 70th week, and that the beast kills them halfway through the week.

Much love!