Matthew 24

[Ronald D Milam]

Matthew 24; Mark 13, and Luke 21 must be considered as some of the most important words in the scriptures, and the reason being is that Jesus himself thought it wise to speak these words as he was preparing to leave this world and go unto the Father. Because of this, we must consider these scriptures as words that we must seek to understand properly in order for us to heed them and hold them fast.

Well, the timestamps on each post shows this is pure copy & paste. That is not the way debate should be, it has to be give and take, so much wrong in what you have written means I only need to prove Matt. 24:4-13 was not about the end times at all but about the Disciples fate in the first century. Jesus needed the Church to survive right? So if they think the 70 AD events were Jesus (Messiah) come again, they would have followed the Disciples into battle at Jerusalem, and Jesus HAD TO MAKE IT VERY, VERY CLEAR, that 70 AD was not his return, and vs. 14 makes that 100 percent clear. The two verses that make people think this is about the end times (7-8) is only Jesus describing why 70 AD can not be the 70th week end time events, because in 70 AD they will not have seen what MUST COME, plagues that kill many that get worse and more frequent until the end (70th week). Wars and many of them, that could not happen from 33 AD to 70 AD. Many earthquakes, again they saw no great earthquakes during that 40 year odd span. Ethos against Ethos (Nation or Clans arise against other clans) could not be 70 AD because Rome was the BIG DOG, there were no clans fighting clans (LOL). So, verses 7-8 have ZERO to do with verses 4-13 in general, its just Jesus describing why 70 AD can not be THE END........which is what vs. 6 says. the END IS NOT YET, its by and by or later on. I will teach Matt. 24 in one post, keep it simple Sam.

Why Matthew 24 is Jesus giving the Disciples a Survival Guide for them and the newly birthed Church

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

{{ The Disciples were enthralled by the temple, and said look Jesus, that is when he gave them a lesson of what was coming soon in 70 AD and would show them what they needed to look for. }}

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, (1)Tell us, when shall these things be? and (2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the (3)end of the world?

{{ When shall these THINGS (temples destruction) be comes first, then what shall be the sign of your coming, lastly what will be the end of the world [AGE] in other words when will the Kingdom Age start. }}

Verses 4-6 are all about the 70 AD events not END TIME EVENTS

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(Disciples). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye(Disciples) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye(Disciples) be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (KEY PASSAGE vs 14 tells them when THE END will come)

{{ So, Jesus realizes if he does not make this crystal clear, that 70 AD, which mirrors Zech. 14:1-4, is not the 70th week and his return, then the Disciples will show up in Jerusalem between 67-70 AD to fight for their Lord Jesus when the Pharisees name a Messianic figure, which they did a couple of times, as history documents, because they were learned men, they knew Rome was the fourth beast. Thus this is what fulfilled John 5:43 it is not an end time prophecy, Jesus told the Pharisees that you reject me who the Father has sent but [YE] will accept ANOTHER [Messianic figure] that comes in his own name. This happened in the 67-70 AD wars with Rome.

Jesus knew 100 percent that if his Disciples came rushing back they would be killed at that time and the fledgling church would have rushed to Jerusalem with them from all areas inside the Roman Empire, and they would have all been killed and the Church would have died in its infancy. When I say this, some say, but God could protect His church and make them safe, HE DID, by telling the Disciples not to go to Jerusalem in 70 AD because that would not nor could be Jesus returning, vs. 14 makes this 100 percent clear. So, Jesus lets them know, THIS IS NOT THE END or 70th week. The end is by and by or later on, and he then goes about describing in verses 7-8 all the things that must lead into the 70th week, via a Birth Pang like descriptor. We understand that verses 7-8 have nothing to do with verses 4-13 really, its just Jesus saying you can not come and fight in 70 AD, because all these things must come first, in a birth pangs sort of way, then and only then will the end (70th week) come. }}

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows(Birth pangs).

{{ This has nothing to do with this overall teaching per se, yet many people look at this and think Matt. 24 is about the end times, no it is not !! It is ALL ABOUT the 1st century Christians, a survival guide given unto Jesus' Disciples so they do not come rushing back to Jerusalem in 70 AD endangering the churches fledgling existence. Verse 14 reveals the 100 percent fool proof way Jesus had of showing them that 70 AD was not him returning. NOTICE: vs 9 goes right back to telling the Disciples THEIR FATES. }}

The Disciples Fate

9 Then shall they deliver you(Disciples) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you(Disciples): and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another(Satan gets brothers to betray brothers when Rome gets tough), and shall hate one another.

{{ So, when Rome starts cracking down on Christianity, (vs 10 shows why below) some brothers will betray the faith like Judas betrayed Jesus, and they will turn and snitch, and all the Disciples, save John, would be killed as Martyrs, Jesus told them this, remember one even asked about John and pretty much why he would not die, and Jesus told him, in so many words, to let him worry about that. Letting the Disciples know their fates ahead of time gave them many years to prepare for it, they were not taken by surprise, they were proud the Lord saw them as worthy to die for his name. But in vs. 13 Jesus tells them, basically, DO NOT BE ANOTHER Judas. You must endure until the end [of your lives] not the 70th week events. }}

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many(Not Christians but the Zeus, Jupiter types and the Oracles) 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

{{ The false prophet types, of Zeus, Jupiter et al., were very angry that this new religion was stealing away their patrons, so they cried unto Rome. The Disciples of course were some of the first to die, Rome tried to cut off the head of the snake, but later on over many years they would burn Christians at the stake, fulfilling the above prophecy that the love of many will wax cold, I mean burning people to death is as cruel as a human being can be in my opinion. But they couldn't stop our movement, Jesus is Lord.}}

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved(Jesus was warning his Disciples, hey you can not become a Judas, you have to be faithful until the very end....OF YOUR LIVES. This was not about end time events, but the Disciples death, remember vs. 9 says they will KILL YOU).

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come(ONLY THEN can the End or 70th week come).

{{ Jesus gives his Disciples a fool proof way of knowing 1000 percent that they would never, ever see his Second Coming. But why? So they would know not to come back to Jerusalem in 70 AD, in vs. 6 he tells them this is NOT THE END or 70th week, now in vs. 14 he tells them what brings the 70th week. When the Gospel has been preached unto "ALL THE WORLD" only THEN will the end or 70th week come. Since the Disciples knew about China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia) they knew Jesus was telling them that they would never see his Second Coming, that is why in vs. 6 Jesus tells his Disciples not to be troubled when they here of these wars and rumors of war via Jerusalem and Rome. The Disciples knew 1000 percent that that COULD NOT BE Jesus come again, because before that happens, China, India and modern day Russia had to be evangelized. Thus the END is by and by let them know those events were not the 70th week and verse 14 let them know they would never see the 70th week end times. }}

The 70th Week End Times

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand}16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

{{Now we jump to the 70th week events in verses 15-31}}

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 24 ~D. W. "Red" Baker​

This discourse has without question been a battleground for many over the years, specially so in the last one hundred and fifty years or so, and most likely will increase as time grows closer to Christ's second coming.

Disagreement among Christians over the interpretation of the Olivet Discourse can be a "battleground," but it doesn't have to be. We can disagree and discuss without acrimony.

Righteous men disagree over this discourse, and the reason why is that so many false prophets are out in the world with their message that is diametrically opposite of what Jesus Christ chose to warned his saints of concerning the last days of this world.

It is a mistake to make a blanket statement, that positions different than yours are the product of "false prophets." That would mean you see yourself as the Holy Spirit. We are all susceptible to error, and need to keep our hearts pure and humble, open to correction.

What we believe about the Olivet Discourse is not necessarily a litmus test for the genuineness of our Christianity. It can certainly be that, and I accept it to some degree. I just wouldn't characterize the difference of beliefs as necessarily "satanic."

A person's understanding of this discourse will reveal his eschatology beliefs.

Yes, and many good and decent Christians hold different eschatologies! I have personally held to a number of different eschatologies in my lifetime. But it wasn't that I was going from God to the Devil. Rather, we are susceptible to many voices, and have to listen carefully as we grow in our knowledge of the Bible and of God Himself.

Jesus will give us a understanding of what Daniel was speaking about in his dark prophetic teachings, not the other way around, as some would have you to believe.

This is incorrect. Both the Gospel authors and Paul referred us to Daniel, as the source of their material. For example, Daniel is the original source for teaching on the Antichrist. I think every NT author, in speaking of the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds was directly or indirectly using Daniel as an authority.

Daniel was a prophet of the word of God. His authority came from the word of God, and not from himself. That word was not inferior to NT teaching.

I read this statement many years ago: "In the scriptures the contrast is not between the spiritual and literal~but between the spiritual and natural, for a passage may refer, when taken literally, either to that which is natural or, to that which is spiritual*."*

This again is a problem. The "natural" referred, according to Paul, to carnal interests, and the "spiritual" to spiritual interests. It had nothing to do with interpreting whether the Scriptures are to be literally or symbolically interpreted.

To determine what a passage is saying is a matter of hermeneutics, and has to do with context and word meanings. We don't have to know in depth what the Bible means when it says that only Jesus' followers really know God.

It is a plain and obvious statement. But to hear that statement and actually have what it claims is a different thing, because that kind of understanding is based on "experience," not just intellectual comprehension.

These things being said I welcome your discussion on this subject. I hope not to offend you with my own positions, which I anticipate will be somewhat awkward at times. I've considered various positions on this for about 50 years! ;)

 

[Red Baker]

Well, the timestamps on each post shows this is pure copy & paste.

Greetings Ronald~of course it was copied and paste, yet every word are my own written around ten years ago in a fifty page letter sent to a local pastor whom I was debating.

The reason why I posted ahead is for the very reason, that if I did not then most likely I could not get as far as I did doing this way.

I'm going to continue posting a little farer and then begin to answer posts, or else we would never be able to get most of what we want out for the reader ~ I know how hard post and debate at the same time, generally you get nowhere.

Sorry if this does not meet your expectation, but be patience we will talk I'm sure.

RB

 

[Red Baker]

It is a mistake to make a blanket statement, that positions different than yours are the product of "false prophets."

Greetings Randy~I never said that men who disagree with me are false prophets, read again what I did say.

Righteous men disagree over this discourse, and the reason why is that so many false prophets are out in the world with their message that is diametrically opposite of what Jesus Christ chose to warned his saints of concerning the last days of this world.

Righteous men do disagree~yet, it is also true, that many false prophets are gone out into the world especially so in our day, which is one of the main teachings in the beginning of the discourse.

What we believe about the Olivet Discourse is not necessarily a litmus test for the genuineness of our Christianity. It can certainly be that, and I accept it to some degree. I just wouldn't characterize the difference of beliefs as necessarily "satanic."

Neither would I~nevertheless, not having a true understanding concerning Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21; most likely has a person holding to many unsound teachings that must be avoided, and expose for many reasons which we may cover later.

Yes, and many good and decent Christians hold different eschatologies! I have personally held to a number of different eschatologies in my lifetime. But it wasn't that I was going from God to the Devil. Rather, we are susceptible to many voices, and have to listen carefully as we grow in our knowledge of the Bible and of God Himself.

Randy, I have held two different ones~started out as a Premill back in the early seventies, in my mid twenties, but soon realized its errors and gradually converted over to idealist Amill after given myself over to seek and search for the truth, still a working progress I'm sure.

I've considered various positions on this for about 50 years! ;)

I have study all four main positions, and have friends in almost all of them. The extreme Preterist position is too much for me to get along with those guys, we go at it very hard, and premill do not know their bibles well enough to even carry on a in depth study, which very sad to report, I can say this because know many of these folks. I went to their bible college, etc. Harold Sighter and Oliver B. Greens, the gospel hour,~I lived very close to both of them~well actually I live on the buckle of the Bible belt! Greenville SC. I sat under Mr. Sighter in Bible college many years ago. A godly man, just wrong on his teachings.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Greetings Ronald~of course it was copied and paste, yet every word are my own written around ten years ago in a fifty page letter sent to a local pastor whom I was debating.

The reason why I posted ahead is for the very reason, that if I did not then most likely I could not get as far as I did doing this way.

I'm going to continue posting a little farer and then begin to answer posts, or else we would never be able to get most of what we want out for the reader ~ I know how hard post and debate at the same time, generally you get nowhere.

Sorry if this does not meet your expectation, but be patience we will talk I'm sure.

RB

I debunked your thesis in one post. Save your time.

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24 ~ by D. W. "Red" Baker​

Matthew 24:6~"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubles: for these things must come to pass, but he end is not yet."

This is the beginning of prophetic signs that Jesus will give to us concerning, the end of this present world, and his second coming. These signs will give to the elect, signs telling them, that their Lord's coming is at hand, even at the door. Although, the exact day is hidden from them in God's secret will, yet they can take courage that it is indeed very near, even as near as summer is, when the budding of trees begin to show forth. The day and hour, without question is hidden from us, even the months and years are hidden. We can be sure of this one thing: "we can know for sure that we are living within the little season of Revelation 20, without question, we can know that, and we will let others mocked, who believe otherwise, for all of what is recorded in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Timothy 3:4:5; and Daniel 7-12; Revelation, would all be written in vain, if the elect could not know for sure~but, we can.

The little season mentioned by John in Revelation 20~I am convinced started around 1800, or there about, plus or minus~and has lasted up until now, and could very well last another hundred years or so, or it could not; it is hidden from us. That is why we are commanded to be wise and always be ready and watching.

I said that the little season started around the 1800's plus, or minus. I am basing that upon a few things: I have read much of the church history and have seen her progress, and also her decline. Some noticeable points should be of interest to us concerning bible prophecy and the Lord's coming. Many, yea many, false cults arose during the 1800's~to name just a few of them: Mormonism; SDA; JW; and many, many more within that time frame; not only that, but an assault upon the scriptures~so many false versions flooded this word beginning around 1850, with the RV, up until this very day. The list is too many to mention! Consider also, how our overall society has changed! The list is too numerous to go into details. Divorce is on a rampant, sodomy has increased, now marrying the same sex, worst than Lot's day. Worst than Noah's day. Consider the churches of Christ~sodomy, and all kind of wickedness reigns within God temple! Holiness and the love of the truth is a thing of the past. I am just skimming the surface for sake of time. Paul and the apostles would be rejected and hated in the churches of our day. Arminian doctrine has taken over the churches of the twenty first century. Premillennialism arose in around 1828. The list goes on. Stand up against the many evils of our day, and it will bring on war!

Before I start, let me say this: there is not a man who reads and interprets Matthew 24 literally from start to finish, no one. Every interpreter, somewhere must give an spiritual application or sense to what they are reading. Those who fear God, will allow the scriptures to dictate to them when they must look for an spiritual sense. We know from reading the scriptures, that metaphorical and literal expressions are intermingled in prophetic scriptures~so that a sober attentiveness may arrive at the spiritual meaning by a painstaking effort which is both useful and salutary; whereas the indolence of the flesh and the slowness of an uninstructed and untrained mind is content with a superficial, literal meaning and thinks that no inner meaning is to be sought, and they even take pride in doing so.

Verse six to be continue

 

[Red Baker]

Verse 6 finishing...

"But the end is not yet'~The end of the world will not come until all that is written be completed; when we see one of these things being fulfilled, then we must not be overcharged with excitement, thinking it is all over; we must wait patiently and be always ready, and not read something into the scriptures that is not there, like many have done and will yet do. The Lord wants us to be with him, more than we want to be with him, and he will come at the appointed time of the Father. Also, let not grow weary, if he takes longer and delays his coming (delays only from our view point and understanding, not his) and we begin to eat and drink with the drunker, who are drunk on the things of this present vain life. Let us believe his promises that he will indeed come again and receive us unto himself, that where he is, there will be be also, world without end, never to be separated from him.

"Ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars"~We know that the Lord spoke every word of this discourse with a definitive purpose and in a precise and timely manner. Knowing that, will cause us to be diligent in following the flow of this discourse and seeking our understanding from the words that flow from his mouth. This scriptures follows from verse five, where we heard Jesus saying that many will come in his name and that they shall deceive many. The elect living in those days will stand against BOTH the false prophets and those that were deceived by them. IN those days iniquity shall abound, even though the world will be increasing religiously; and because of sin abounding, the love of many will wax cold, and men will actually begin to hate one another, as God defines hatred. Those days will be indeed perilous times! A man's foe will be those of his own household! This has always been true in part, then, in the latter days, it will be much worst than ever before.

Wars and rumours of war will be spiritual in nature, more so than literal! We must follow the flow of this discourse, in order to arrive at its truth.

There will be wars between husbands and wife; parents and children, believers and kinfolk; believers and empty professors; false prophets and true prophets; the generation of vipers against the the generation of the righteous; The devil will make WAR AGAINST THE SAINTS, and overcome them and killed them (silence them~put them out of view of the public, making them out to be extreme in their thinking; and, they are indeed in comparison to the wicked around them, who have forsaken the word of the living God.

This is the main war the holy scriptures speak about, and to think otherwise is to be at war against the word of God! Literal wars have always been here and always will be. But in the latter days just before the coming of Jesus Christ, a spiritual warfare will break out (the like this world has never seen) against true believers from the beast and his followers, those who have his mark on their forehead and in the right hand! Read the following scriptures: Daniel 7:21; Revelation 13:7; 20:9

There is coming a day when the world/Babylon will say peace and safety, (they finally silence the narrow minded people, who tormented people with their holier than thou attitudes) then sudden destruction will come upon them as a woman in travail, and they shall not escape! Read 1st Thess. 5:3

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus~We know that that day is near, even at the door. Wars will come and we are called to~Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.....We are called to put on the whole armour of God, and to fight a good fight of faith; we are to endure hardness as a good solider of Jesus Christ, and we shall reap, if we faint not, it will last only for a little season!

I think that it would be good if we added more thoughts to our last post. We gave a scripture from Paul's letters to inform our readers why we that Matthew 24:6 must be interpreted in a spiritual sense, other than literal. Let us give some more biblical reasons. To help those who may not be totally convinced.

1. Believers look to the scriptures alone for their understanding of prophetic truths; we do not look into the tomorrow's newspaper, or CNN or Fox, or any other News Network.

How did Anna and Simeon know about Christ's first coming into the world? From anything outside of the scriptures, or, from within the scriptures of truth? Luke 2:27-38~ How should have saints fifteen hundred years ago, interpret such scriptures as Matthew 24:6, who lived when news did not travel as it does in our days? The same way as Anna and Simeon; and the same way that we must today; time does not change how scriptures must be interpreted! Truth is hidden within the scriptures, not outside of them. We have a marvelous book called the bible, God's holy truth to his children. All we need is eyes anointed by the Spirit of God in order to see its glorious truths. The world's natural catastrophe events has very little, if any, to do with spiritual truths, or Christ's second coming, and even more so, with old Jerusalem, and its temple that was destroyed by God. Israel after the flesh knew about literal wars, their whole history is all about wars, from Joshua, up until Christ; How could that be a sign to us Gentiles, much more to the Jews? It could not be, and it was not spoken by Christ, to that end.

2. Only Believers can read such scriptures as the one before us, and their mind does not think instantly of literal wars; but men of this world can only think that way, for there is no reason for them to think otherwise, they know nothing of the holy war that all saints are engaged in~against spiritual wickedness in high places, and rulers of of darkness! They mock at such things. This holy war the scriptures exhort us to stand up and fight, that we may be able to quench all of the fiery darts of the wicked one throws at us.

So, most men can easily believe that this scripture is speaking of literal wars all over this earth, and that they shall increase, either in 70 A.D. (even that theory within itself could not even fit into a forty year time period! But, that does not stop people from accepting that theory, added to that, that it is not even hinted in the epistles of the apostles.) or, toward the end of this world, neither of which would fit into Jesus' discourse that is before us.

What we have throughout Acts of the apostles and the epistles is a spiritual warfare they saints were in, and were warned that they shall increase at the end of this world. Reader, do you know anything of this holy warfare? Do you have friends or love ones, or enemies, who speak evil of you without a cause? I know that you do, if you are a true believers in Jesus Christ. Do you have people who have separated you form their company? People who have harm you in one way or another, and they think that they are doing God a service by the way they treat you? Do you have people they are a little afraid of you, because of your love and zeal of God? If not, then you are not following the Master, they did him that way and much more! Jesus Christ, lived a life of spiritual warfare! Read the gospels. So will every true follower of his, no one gets a free ride. If we were of the world, then the world would love us, but since we are not of the world, thereby, the world hates us and desires only our hurt. Read the gospel carefully and follow Paul's life. John the Baptist did not live very long in this world, nether did Jesus, and many other great saints. Why, we ask? This world is no friend of grace and the word of God. These are not my personal opinions, but the word of God. Read John 15:18-21; James 4:5; Matthew 10:34-39; Mark 13:11-3.

This holy war will increase greatly toward the very end, as many will fall away from the truth, giving heed to seducing spirit and doctrines of devils. False doctrine and lose living will increase greatly, because Paul said plainly, that evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. t Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 3:13

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry, one more...

3. This holy war that Christians are engaged in is as much inwardly as outwardly! Our main warfare is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

These evil spirits shall be turned loose upon the world of ungodly men, who hate God and his truth, and his children in the very end of the last days of this world, during the time that Satan shall be loose from God restraining him~he was bound for a thousand years (a designated time purpose by God) so the church of Jesus Christ could be built. Peter understood this, when he wrote 2 Peter 3~specially verse 9 . During the little season God will open up the bottomless pit (a figurative way of saying, that he is removing his restraining power~2 Thess. 2:7) and these spirits in the heavens will have free unrestricted power to go forth to deceived the men who have not the seal of God upon them. Read Revelation 9:1-4 They were not allow to hurt any green thing, or, those who have spiritual life!

Nevertheless, these powerful evil spirits will have great power to deceive men, even if it were possible, the very elect, but it is not possible. But, they shall tempt them greater than the righteous have ever been tempted.

Luke 21:25-26

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; an upon earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's heart's failing them for fear, and looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the power of heaven shall be shaken."

These things were not true of old Jerusalem, and, are certainly not limited to them. Because even within the very same chapter, we read these words:

Luke 21:35

"For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell of the face of the WHOLE EARTH."

What is Luke 21: 25,26 speaking about? Sun is allegorically speaking of the time when the church's influence is NOT FELT any longer. Stars falling heaven and the powers that are in the heaven shall be shaken~Mark 13:25.....Stars fall from heaven is when those that once shone in moral excellence collapse and fail in time of temptation, in the times when the strongest of the faithful will be shaken. These things will happen toward the end of the little season, or, the great tribulation that covers the little season. Only those who endure to the end shall be saved in practical sense, and thus proving that they are the very elect. The church is a heavenly body, where as, the non elect are of the earth...so we read these words: "And upon the earth distress of nations with perplexity: the sea and the waves (men of this world) roaring:"

But things will settle down for them toward the very, very last day, for they will say peace and safety! But then, sudden destruction will come upon them all!

As I said, the greatest battle of all is with the flesh, and this vain world, that the devil is god of, and the world that he has built (not created!) to deceive his followers. James said this: "Do ye think the scriptures saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? James 4;5; Galatians 5:17.

Demas lost this holy war, and proved to be a reprobate. God has called us to come out of Mystery, Babylon, the devil's city. This is not speaking of false cults, for that within itself is really not hard to do, as so many have done, without ever coming out of Babylon, that God is speaking of, when John penned those words in Revelation 18:4. Babylon is this world system under the power, and the deceitful seducing art of the devil. Within Babylon it has many goodly dainties that our flesh naturally lusteth after, without us even trying to do so. The call of Revelation 18;4 is the very exact call given by John in his epistle, where we read this:

1 John 2:15-17

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the father, but of the world. And the passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

Not a few will lose this spiritual war. The holy war with our flesh will last until death. Let us count all things but dung, that we may win Christ and the world to to come. The very elect will be victorious, and will hear the words: "Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom promised to you before the foundation of the world."

RB

 

[Red Baker]

I debunked your thesis in one post. Save your time.

Wishful thinking Mr. Ronald stay around and we shall see.

Maybe you should use your time in making sure you can prove my teachings are wrong, pretty sure I can handle anything you give me, since have warred against some of the best, pretty sure you are not much different than the rest.

Btw, I have faced many Rabshakeh's in my days~and I have not listen to any of them. If you know who he was, then you know what I'm speaking about.

 

[rwb]

The generation that Christ is exposing (wonder who does not want to be exposed?) are the the generation wicked and sinful children of the wicked one, the old serpent. These little vipers will be charged by the Judge of all the earth with the blood of all righteous men and women whom they have killed form Abel to the very last one. In our Lord's day, they were among the Pharisees and scribes, in our day, they are among just about every religion under heaven. Who killed Abel? The Jews were not even a nation or people at that time! God is just, and will not charge someone who did not do wickedness. But, all of those who are of the generation of the wicked, will give account of their evil deeds, specially shedding the blood of the righteous.

Greetings Red, so far I'm enjoying your commentary but have only gotten through pg 3. I know you aren't looking for debate or rebuttals now, but I did want to plant a seed regarding "this generation" for you to consider.

While I certainly agree that there shall always be the generation of evil-doers to the end of days, I question whether they are "this generation" Christ referred to. Christ says "this generation" while speaking to His disciples. And He makes a connection to the Jews of old through the parable of the fig tree. Have you ever considered "this generation" that shall not pass away until all things are fulfilled, is the "chosen generation"? (1Pe 2:9-10)

Christ had earlier cursed the fig tree, saying "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever", and the fig tree withered away. I believe the fig tree is symbolic for Israel of Old. What we learn of Christ's use of parables, is that they give a lesson about the Kingdom of God, using various familiar objects, things that would be common and easy to understand. I don't believe the parable of the fig tree changes from Christ giving instruction to those who have ears to hear of the Kingdom of God that has come, to using the parable of the fig tree beginning to show life at the end of days when Christ would come again.

Christ had cursed the fig tree (Israel of Old) and partial blindness was the fate of the Jews for all but the remnant according to election of grace. I believe it is this remnant according to election of grace that were the beginning of the spiritual Kingdom of God, and through their faithfulness the Kingdom of God would grow into an innumerable multitude from all the nations of the world.

The first century disciples were there to hear Christ curse the fig tree. I've no doubt they understood the curse was directed at Israel in unbelief. I imagine their surprise when they first preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to the Jews, that resulted in seeing new life (spiritual) in the fig tree, knowing that Christ had cursed Israel. The parable was given to these first century, faithful Jews, who were not yet permanently indwelt with the Holy Spirit sent from Christ. Through the preaching of the Gospel these saints would come to understand the Kingdom of God they had for centuries been waiting for had come, but it is not a physical Kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom that may only be known and entered through the power of the Spirit in us when we are born again. This is how they and we who read the Discourse would know the Kingdom of God has not only come, but is also near/at hand for all who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and by grace through faith believe on Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Red, so far I'm enjoying your commentary but have only gotten through pg 3. I know you aren't looking for debate or rebuttals now, but I did want to plant a seed regarding "this generation" for you to consider.

While I certainly agree that there shall always be the generation of evil-doers to the end of days, I question whether they are "this generation" Christ referred to. Christ says "this generation" while speaking to His disciples. And He makes a connection to the Jews of old through the parable of the fig tree. Have you ever considered "this generation" that shall not pass away until all things are fulfilled, is the "chosen generation"? (1Pe 2:9-10)

Greetings brother~I have consider many different points of views taught by men.

I also know that the context drives our interpretation of what is being said~consider:

Interpretations "must" agree with their context.​

Remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; we must learn to spot it.

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.

Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.

Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.

A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Hate this abuse of words! You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God. This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning. Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee! Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. We must mark it and take heed!

This generation must be understood in its context in which Christ used the phrase~and without question, he spoke of the wicked men that will take over the temple in Judea~which we shall prove that it is speaking of places where Jesus Christ is suppose to be worshipped. More on this later.

Thank you for you for the spirit in which you posted. I will reread your post in the morning. RB

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings Randy~I never said that men who disagree with me are false prophets, read again what I did say.

Righteous men do disagree~yet, it is also true, that many false prophets are gone out into the world especially so in our day, which is one of the main teachings in the beginning of the discourse.

Neither would I~nevertheless, not having a true understanding concerning Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21; most likely has a person holding to many unsound teachings that must be avoided, and expose for many reasons which we may cover later.

Randy, I have held two different ones~started out as a Premill back in the early seventies, in my mid twenties, but soon realized its errors and gradually converted over to idealist Amill after given myself over to seek and search for the truth, still a working progress I'm sure.


I have study all four main positions, and have friends in almost all of them. The extreme Preterist position is too much for me to get along with those guys, we go at it very hard, and premill do not know their bibles well enough to even carry on a in depth study, which very sad to report, I can say this because know many of these folks. I went to their bible college, etc. Harold Sighter and Oliver B. Greens, the gospel hour,~I lived very close to both of them~well actually I live on the buckle of the Bible belt! Greenville SC. I sat under Mr. Sighter in Bible college many years ago. A godly man, just wrong on his teachings.

I used to listen to Olivet Greene and in fact ordered some of his tracts and passed them out in my city! ;) And I'm from the Pacific NW! I like guys who really belt things out and want to make the Gospel simple enough that people can actually hear the Holy Spirit! ;)

I was raised in a denomination that was Amill, but I went the opposite of you, turning Premill. I appreciate your explanation, and accept that you experienced it that way, but don't think Premill adherents of the kind of George E. Ladd or Robert Gundry are dumb relayers of the latest fad on the radio! ;)

I've been called a Partial Preterist pretty regularly, but I agree with a good amount of their view on the Olivet Discourse. (Incidentally, I'm *not* a Preterist at all.) I part with many of my fellow Premills on this subject. But if you're truly open, let's see how it goes? :) Take care...

 

[ScottA]

Let us consider this point a little more before moving on concerning taking God's word at face value.

The conventional mode of communication among men in order to minimize any possible misunderstanding between us should be our approach to the scriptures when reading them. Let me explain myself: If I say to someone, that the cow jumped over the fence~then the word cow means cow and fence means fence, or else, there is no means of communicating between us~according to the rules of grammar, communicating and logic~words we are saying and reading, must be true to their use, or else, there is no communication between man and man~or God and man. I trust my readers are following me. Words "do" have meaning at face value, or the scriptures are left open for men to teach anything under heaven. One man's doctrine is good as the next man's, if there are no rules of governing our use of words. I even take this approach to the book of Revelation. I read every word at face value, and then, and only then, do I allow the scriptures to dictate to me how I should understand what I am reading. I am totally convinced that this must be our methodology as we come to God's testimony to us from heaven. If a brother or sister has a better method of studying the scriptures~then speak and I will listen carefully.

In your first post you have already broken your own purposed rules. Not good.

I have made bold and enlarged above to show you. The words "are spirit" but you have imposed a "literary only" rule. In other words, if you had said, "The Lamb jumped over the fence--then the word Lamb means lamb and fence means fence", that works for literature and communication "man to man", but not from Lamb to man.

Thus, you have only accomplished to show your study as falling short of what is required for any actual biblical or spiritual understanding.

Oh, and since "God is spirit"...the idea of so called "over-spiritualizing" is not the real problem, but rather not "spiritualizing" enough. Meaning, that it is advisable that you "do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind", and then start over. Those passages are there for a reason.

 

[covenantee]

This generation must be understood in its context in which Christ used the phrase~and without question, he spoke of the wicked men that will take over the temple in Judea~which we shall prove that it is speaking of places where Jesus Christ is suppose to be worshipped. More on this later.

Matthew 24:34 Greek

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34 "

Israelites, from the beginning of the nation of Israel and throughout its history, were comprised of both descendants of Abraham (eventually known as Jews) and non-descendants of Abraham (eventually known as Gentiles).
Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

"This generation" to which Jesus referred in His discourse circa 30 AD, in Matthew 24:34, was not limited to the Jewish race/ethnicity, but was rather the whole multitude of unbelieving Israelites living at the time when the prophesied judgment and destruction began, within the Biblical generation duration of 30-40 years, circa 66 AD, culminating in 70 AD.

The Christian Israelites in Judaea, heeding Jesus warning in Matthew 24:15-16, escaped to Pella prior to 70 AD, and survived.

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24:34 Greek

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34 "

Israelites, from the beginning of the nation of Israel and throughout its history, were comprised of both descendants of Abraham (eventually known as Jews) and non-descendants of Abraham (eventually known as Gentiles).
Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

"This generation" to which Jesus referred in His discourse circa 30 AD, in Matthew 24:34, was not limited to the Jewish race/ethnicity, but was rather the whole multitude of unbelieving Israelites living at the time when the prophesied judgment and destruction began, within the Biblical generation duration of 30-40 years, circa 66 AD, culminating in 70 AD.

The Christian Israelites in Judaea, heeding Jesus warning in Matthew 24:15-16, escaped to Pella prior to 70 AD, and survived.

Greetings Covenantee~First, God's word is its own dictionary, on how to define words being used, I gave some examples already above if you have read the posts posted so far.

Your position goes against the context of the Olivet discourse, in chapters 24, and 25. which we can prove if time is given to us to do so.

 

[Red Baker]

In your first post you have already broken your own purposed rules. Not good.

I have made bold and enlarged above to show you. The words "are spirit" but you have imposed a "literary only" rule. In other words, if you had said, "The Lamb jumped over the fence--then the word Lamb means lamb and fence means fence", that works for literature and communication "man to man", but not from Lamb to man.

Thus, you have only accomplished to show your study as falling short of what is required for any actual biblical or spiritual understanding.

Oh, and since "God is spirit"...the idea of so called "over-spiritualizing" is not the real problem, but rather not "spiritualizing" enough. Meaning, that it is advisable that you "do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind", and then start over. Those passages are there for a reason.

Greetings Scott~I have not imposed a "literary only" rule please read what I said:

I read every word at face value, and then, and only then, do I allow the scriptures to dictate to me how I should understand what I am reading. I am totally convinced that this must be our methodology as we come to God's testimony to us from heaven. If a brother or sister has a better method of studying the scriptures~then speak and I will listen carefully.

I'm a Idealist Amill.....meaning we do not necessarily interpret scriptures using literary approach but compare spiritual things with spiritual, just as we are taught in the scriptures and just as Jesus practiced.

John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the second coming of Elijah~he came in the same spirit and power that Elijah had as we both now know. God does hides truth under words that we just cannot interpret literally using the common meaning that most folks think of when they hear the world used. We labor to do as men of God in the past have done....

Nehemiah 8:8~“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”​

Hope this help to clarify our use of the holy scriptures and our manner of coming to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Red Baker]

I used to listen to Oliver Greene and in fact ordered some of his tracts and passed them out in my city! ;) And I'm from the Pacific NW! I like guys who really belt things out and want to make the Gospel simple enough that people can actually hear the Holy Spirit! ;)

Mr. Greene had a very powerful manner of speaking with his thundering voice and zeal of God, but to me it was not according to knowledge, even though I hold him in high regard for his love of the scriptures and in what he believed in. I used to past out his tract as well in the early seventies~he died in 1977 but his radio program still runs even until this day. His son David a local lawyer runs it~both of his sons are lawyers, maybe retired now, not sure. As a young Christian back then it brought sadness to my heart when he died~I went to his funeral.

The Lord be with you~RB

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24:7,8

"For nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."

"And nation shall arise against nation"~How shall we understand these words? The easy route to take would be to apply them in a literal sense, and say a couple of sentences, and move on, and call that~opening up the hidden truths of the scriptures!" Of the truth, that is the only way that the unregenerate do read the scriptures, for they can read them no other way than the literal meaning of what they are reading. We should expect more from spiritual minded people, who believe that they see.

First, these words do not say that nations shall rise against nations, but nation against nation. In our day, that is almost unheard of, since we have the United Nations that works together when there is a war in any where in this world. There may be many nations involved in wars all over this world at any given time. Even America, could be in more than one at any given time. Nation against nation in a literal sense, is a thing of the past. for the most part. We all are so tied into each other economically, that it is impossible to take those word literal. Beside and more than that, we must follow the flow of this discourse and take heed how we are hearing what Jesus is revealing to us, and not stray from his main message of signs of the last days, just before his coming.

A spiritual nation within a literal nation, will be here until this world comes to its end; and knowing that, there will be battles to be fought between the spiritual and the natural/literal nation. The nations of this world are against what Christians stand for and love. There is not a nation on this earth that is Christian friendly to the saints living within those nations. We have a different God; we live by different standards; we delight in different things; we set our affections on different things; we train our children by a different set of rules; we have different goals; to sum it up: one are of the night, the other of the day. The people of these nations hate the saints therein, some more than others, but overall, they all believe that their nation would be better without them, and it will get much worst, not better, as time begins to drawn closer to the Lord's coming. The nations of this world have beaten and have imprison, and killed God's people since the very beginning, and the last days will be much worst, do not expect it to be better. In all of these nations, there is within them a chosen generation warring with the religious generation of vipers within them~these rise up against God's people more so than the non-religious do, and use them to kill and imprison the faithful~just as the religious leaders of Jesus' day use the system to put Christ to death. 2nd Kings 3:14; Psalm 139:21; 15:4 Think about this point: The Gentiles were not even grafted yet into the body, but would soon be part of that body! This prophecy look way past 70 A.D. to the very end of this world! What a fitting prophecy, and how true are these words even in our day!

"Kingdom against kingdom"~There are only two kingdom in this world, in the truest sense of that statement: the kingdom of light, and the kingdom of darkness. Jesus is king of the saints; the devil is the king of darkness. These two kingdoms have been at war since Abel and Cain! And will be so, until this world comes to an end. There will never be peace between the two kingdoms, never. The fault lies with the wicked, not the righteous. We serve two different master; two different spirits lives within them.

"There shall be famine"~ This cannot be taken literal, nor should we. The last days will be like Noah and Lot~Matthew 24:39; eating and drinking! Even though their bellies are full, their souls are empty of spiritual truth; understanding; wisdom; and light! They are very religious, but they are following false prophets! Who are void of truth, and light, understanding, and true wisdom. All that they can preach equals to fables, at best! 2nd Timothy 4:5.

At the end of this world this scripture will literally be fulfilled spiritually! When the many false prophets arise, their preaching will have no substance to it, no depth to it. Their preaching could be termed: generalization preaching"~they do not expound the word of God with any depth, they are "generalist"~surface gleaning, who use biblical expressions, like: Jesus Christ; salvation; heaven; hell; forgiven; love and peace; etc. without ever actually seeking to interpret the scriptures and to seek their proper sense and to make them harmonize with each other. They just speak the language, without ever applying themselves to be students of the scriptures. Their words are always the same, and if you heard them once, then you have heard all that they know, which is not too much~much like the words of the scribes of Jesus' day. Unlike Jesus: Matthew 7:28,29; Luke 24:42

BY the fact that the man of sin will sit where he ought not to sit, people will only hear fables, lies, and not enough truth to keep one spiritually alive. That's one of many reasons saint will eventually flee from Judea, for the mountain, to avoid their damnable heresies, wicked lifestyle, a pitiful teaching that they will be receiving. There will be coming a day, when true saints will be hard to find, even those who are true saints, their knowledge is not what saints of the past had, so sad. Read Amos 8:11; 2 Timothy 3:-4:14

There is in our day a great spiritual famine in divers places throughout this world. Even Christian forums will prove this point! There is indeed a serious shortage of hearing the hidden truths of the word of God. We are very thankful for the good bread, that has been store up and left for us by our forefathers.

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24:7b

"................and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

We know that the word famines had to be interpreted in spiritual sense, why not not the remaining two things that are within the same verse, not be? They must, and the reason why is this: "if there is indeed a shortage of spiritual bread, then there are spiritual pestilence abounding in divers places throughout this world, in which we live.

One brother wrote to me recently and said: "Brother Red, I was visiting a particular church, in which the preacher would go into a rhythmic chanting, much like some of the black congregational churches do, in which their preaching was so unintelligible, and down right annoying and repulsive to any spiritual sane person~but to the man who is under a strong delusion from God, then he is convinced that he is preaching in the Spirit, even though he understands nothing the chanting spirit from the devil is saying."

Where there are famines, there will you find pestilences abounding. The believing and receiving of the truth of the word of God will bring healing to the brokenhearted and the recovering of the sight to the blind! Read Luke 4:18

The many false prophets that shall arise in the last days, will be as Job said:

Job 13:4

"But ye are forger of lies, ye are all physicians of no valve."

They at best can only do what Jeremiah said of the false prophets of his days did:

Jeremiah 8:11

"For they have healed the hurt of the daughters of my people (the professing church of the OT) slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there was no peace."

Isaiah describes for us a sinful nation, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters, even though they were very religious, and no doubt glory in the fact that they were all children of God~yes, he describes for us in details the spiritual pestilence diseases, using allegorical speech:

Isaiah 1:5,6

"Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, the whole heart is faint, From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

False prophets are blinded, with no soundness, they border line with the disease of spiritual madness, much like Balaam of old~they are dangerous to be around. They are so unstable, confused, and their deceived followers are not much better than they are, some even worst. Have you ever heard of men like Warren Jeffs? Benny Hinn? These are the extremes, but the world is full of millions of them! Some walk in long robes, with a bible under their arms~they cry peace and love to all of the Lord's children, etc. They love to tell us about their dreams and visions, and great success. These men are like the raging waves of the sea, foaming out of their own shame; wandering stars; clouds they are without water; they separate themselves into an elite and special group of spiritual minded prophets that God has called, yet they are sensual, void of the Spirit of God, and are under the spirit of the prince and power of the air, that lives within them and controls them to serve his evil purposes~but they think otherwise, and are very confident that they are of God, just as the Pharisees that that they were.

This is the Pestilence that Jesus is warning his people of! Do we see it and know it? Pestilences=corruption among the false churches and prophets of the last days just before Jesus' coming again,

Truth causes one's soul to prosper~2 John 1, it is like medicine to our inner man; it has, not only a promise of the life that now is, but that which is to come. Do we really know what truth, real peace, joy, and happiness does to our spirits? Much, every way!

To be continue with this point....

 

[Red Baker]

Quote Matthew 24:7b

"................and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

What we see from Matthew 24, from verse two down to verse twenty four, is prophetical and allegorical language warnings for all of God's elect to hear, believe and to receive in order to protect themselves and others of God's family; and to exhort us to be those wise virgin; those wise and faithful servant, spoken of by Christ later on in this discourse.

"Behold, I have told you~v25...I have told you (from 2-24), meaning that he not only give us signs of the last days, but signs that are warning us what to expect to be our lot in the last days, just before his coming. He is giving to us warnings and instructions on how we should live in those days, so that, we will not be partakers with them, and that we should not be surprised or discourage when those days are upon us. To be forewarned is to be forearmed and expect exactly what our Lord said will come.

Our Lord warned us that pestilences shall be in divers places. These spiritual diseases are not limited to a certain religious sect, but to all alike, that stands and preaches the word of God, or goes through he motion of doing so. These men who have these pestilences diseases are men who stands and goes against what the word of God plainly teaches, by either adding to it, by their man made commandments, or just denying what God's said in his word. If God condemns anything as sin, and man blatantly goes against what God condemns, then that person must be out of their mind, spiritually speaking to be bold enough to take a position contrary to God's word. You pick a subject, and just about everything that the scriptures promotes, man is against, and what God condemns, he is for. How about Sodomy? Training children, and using the rod? Married and divorce, and remarriage? Men being the head of the woman? If one really wants to see and understand the madness of our generation, then take a stand upon thus saith the Lord God, and watch them foaming at the mouth at you!

When men depart from the word of God, hear what God said he will do to them:

Deuteronomy 28:28

"The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart."

Spiritual blindness is the worst judgment of all upon a man's soul~just ask Fanny Crosby, who was literally blind, but not spiritual, and see which one she rather have.

Many in our day are much like the fool that Solomon describes for us in:

Ecclesiastes 10:13:

The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness."

How many preachers have you heard that you could say that they were guilty of mischievous madness? Many are up to no good. They are out for themselves, and are only using people for their own advantage and profit. Doing much more harm, than good. Their preaching is a circle of folly, they preach in a very small circle~and what I mean by that statement is this: they just preach the same thing over and over again, by adding a little and taking away a little, but, basically the same things over and over again. Their mind and heart is sick with the disease called by Solomon: mischievous madness! And, if you follow them, then you will be just like them. Only the men and women who have the true wisdom of God, are those in their right mind, all else are infected with a terrible pestilences, and madness as they run wild and out of control serving their gods of pleasure, and lust, and greed.

2 Timothy 1:7

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and love, and a SOUND MIND."

They think we are crazy, we know that they are! Selah