Matthew 18 - Is Jesus Lying Or Are You Lying?

[GracePeace]

Jesus says that someone who is forgiven their sins through Christ's sacrifice can sin in such a way as to have that forgiveness rescinded, so that such a person ends up being thrown in hell.

For those who argue salvation can't be lost, or that being born of God can't be undone, tell me: are you the liar, or is Jesus the liar?

Matthew 18
23Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.f 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

 

[Bob Estey]

Jesus says that someone who is forgiven their sins through Christ's sacrifice can sin in such a way as to have that forgiveness rescinded, so that such a person ends up being thrown in hell.

For those who argue salvation can't be lost, or that being born of God can't be undone, tell me: are you the liar, or is Jesus the liar?

Matthew 18
23Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.f 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

We know Jesus didn't lie.

 

[Deborah_]

Will a Christian who can’t or won’t forgive another person lose their salvation and end up in Hell?

I’m pretty certain that the answer is NO. And that’s because the servant’s fate doesn’t match up with Hell as Jesus describes it elsewhere. He has a particular stock of phrases that He likes to use. When He explains the parable of the wheat and the weeds, for example, He says, that at the end of the age the weeds will be thrown “into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:42) And again, those who are excluded from the feast in the Kingdom of God “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:12) And in the parable of the talents, the King says, “Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 25:30) But the words “darkness”, “weeping" and “gnashing of teeth” don’t appear in this parable at all! So what's the “torture” that the servant is condemned to? I think it does refer to suffering of some kind - but in this present life, not in eternity. Because what’s the alternative to forgiveness? Simmering resentment - persistent smouldering inside because of the injustice that we’ve had to suffer, the grievance that’s never been resolved.

If we refuse to forgive, than bitterness and resentment start festering in our hearts. And these things cut us off from the love of God; they eat away at our souls; they may even cause physical illness. Our minds keep mulling over the offence and the offender; we’re continually picking at the wound that they’ve inflicted on us, so it never gets a chance to heal. Someone has put it like this: refusing to forgive is “like trying to kill a rat by eating the rat poison yourself.”

 

[GracePeace]

Will a Christian who can’t or won’t forgive another person lose their salvation and end up in Hell?

I’m pretty certain that the answer is NO. And that’s because the servant’s fate doesn’t match up with Hell as Jesus describes it elsewhere. He has a particular stock of phrases that He likes to use. When He explains the parable of the wheat and the weeds, for example, He says, that at the end of the age the weeds will be thrown “into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:42) And again, those who are excluded from the feast in the Kingdom of God “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:12) And in the parable of the talents, the King says, “Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 25:30) But the words “darkness”, “weeping" and “gnashing of teeth” don’t appear in this parable at all! So what's the “torture” that the servant is condemned to? I think it does refer to suffering of some kind - but in this present life, not in eternity. Because what’s the alternative to forgiveness? Simmering resentment - persistent smouldering inside because of the injustice that we’ve had to suffer, the grievance that’s never been resolved.

If we refuse to forgive, than bitterness and resentment start festering in our hearts. And these things cut us off from the love of God; they eat away at our souls; they may even cause physical illness. Our minds keep mulling over the offence and the offender; we’re continually picking at the wound that they’ve inflicted on us, so it never gets a chance to heal. Someone has put it like this: refusing to forgive is “like trying to kill a rat by eating the rat poison yourself.”

So, "Jesus is a liar".

Mathew 18
35"That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

OK Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[GracePeace]

We have one person who says "Jesus is a liar", anyone else want to share their opinion?

 

[Behold]

are you the liar, or is Jesus the liar?

Matthew 18

The Liar is the one who is teaching a symbolic verse, that is given before Jesus is Crucified, as their cult theology that taught them that salvation can be "lost".

That's who is the "liar".

And they'll do it again, as liars lie...its what they are.

 

[GracePeace]

The Liar is the one who is teaching a symbolic verse, that is given before Jesus is Crucified, as their cult theology that taught them that salvation can be "lost".

That's who is the "liar".

And they'll do it again, as liars lie...its what they are.

Guy, the unforgiving servant had had all his debts forgiven.
Is that a Christian, a believer in Jesus, or no?
Do you know another way of being forgiven all your sins?

So far, we have another user who calls Jesus "liar".
Two users call Jesus "liar".

Anyone else?

 

[GracePeace]

The Liar is the one who is teaching a symbolic verse, that is given before Jesus is Crucified, as their cult theology that taught them that salvation can be "lost".

Oops!
1. How does one get forgiven all their sins? Through Christ, right?
2. Jesus told His disciples to go teach the nations everything He taught them, so this pertains to Jesus's disciples today, men who've been forgiven all their debts through faith in Christ's death on our behalves.

But, yeah, your religion is pretty easy when you get to call Jesus "liar".
Just affirm verses you like, that are convenient, and cut all others out.
No, thanks!

 

[Deborah_]

So, "Jesus is a liar".

Why?

 

[GracePeace]

Why?

Mathew 18
35"That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

 

[Deborah_]

I don't see how that makes Jesus a liar. It's true - if we don't forgive, we suffer consequences.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't see how that makes Jesus a liar. It's true - if we don't forgive, we suffer consequences.

You denied the believer who sinned by not forgiving would end up having their sins "unforgiven" so they would end up having to pay for their sins--thus, you called Jesus "liar".

 

[Deborah_]

You denied the believer who sinned by not forgiving would end up having their sins "unforgiven" so they would end up having to pay for their sins--thus, you called Jesus "liar".

No, I explained that Jesus actually meant something different

 

[GracePeace]

No, I explained that Jesus actually meant something different

LOL Right, so "Jesus is a liar--you can never be unforgiven of your sins that had been forgiven, never can a child of God unbecome a child of God."

Deuteronomy 14:1 "you are children of the LORD", 32:5 "they are no longer His children", Hosea 1 "'No Mercy'", "'Not My People'", "Where it had been said 'Not My People', it will be said, 'Children of the Living God'".

Being God's child is not a static state.
God's people are those on whom He has mercy.
God's people are His children.

When you're His people, you're receiving mercy and you're of His children; when you're not part of His people, you're not receiving mercy, and you're not of His children--and the Israelites were His people who had received mercy, and had been His children, and, then, God says "No Mercy", "Not My People", but, later, promises they will return, so that it will be said of them "Children of the Living God".

So, Jesus tells you your debts can be unforgiven.
This refers to being disowned by God.
God forgets righteousness (Ezekiel 18).
When He forgets, disowns, someone, He will say, "I never knew you".
How does the man become unforgiven?
The forgiveness is only "in Christ", but not all remain "in Christ".

So the whole Bible is coherent.

 

[GracePeace]

Will a Christian who can’t or won’t forgive another person lose their salvation and end up in Hell?

I’m pretty certain that the answer is NO. And that’s because the servant’s fate doesn’t match up with Hell as Jesus describes it elsewhere. He has a particular stock of phrases that He likes to use.
...

No, I explained that Jesus actually meant something different

If God saves us by Jesus making payment for our sins so that God can forgive us...

Leviticus 4
20So the priest shall make atonement for them, and [only then] they will be forgiven.

...then God rescinding His forgiveness means the loss of salvation, because it means we would have to pay for our sins ourselves, and part of what we are saved from is having to pay for our sins, suffer under the wrath of God.

 

[GracePeace]

We know Jesus didn't lie.

People who deny sins can be unforgiven are the liars.

 

[GracePeace]

The Liar is the one who is teaching a symbolic verse, that is given before Jesus is Crucified, as their cult theology that taught them that salvation can be "lost".

That's who is the "liar".

And they'll do it again, as liars lie...its what they are.

Lol "Symbolic": "Jesus, we know you're lying. We shouldn't take you at your word. You're saying symbolic stuff. Just stop talking. We know you're not being serious, you're just playing. Sure, the Church believed you were serious until a few hundred years ago, but that was a cult, and the new belief is the original one, like how gays can be Christians now."

 

[Kabone]

I only see the latter half of that, your salvation can be taken away. Did I miss the first half about your salvation being eternal?

PS - thank you for sharing the latter half. It reminds me that there’s someone in my past that I have to find it in my heart to forgive. It’s not going to be easy.

 

[GracePeace]

I only see the latter half of that, your salvation can be taken away. Did I miss the first half about your salvation being eternal?

PS - thank you for sharing the latter half. It reminds me that there’s someone in my past that I have to find it in my heart to forgive. It’s not going to be easy.

Please clarify

 

[Kabone]

Please clarify

Where is it written your salvation is eternal?