Making Disciples

[Episkopos]

1Co 3:10-11
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the foundation ...not us or even Christ in us. Our treasure is to be in heaven...not here. The reason why people build with unauthorized materials is because they think they are free to build as they see fit....from themselves. Wood can even seem solid. But human reasoning has its limitations. Better to seek God's face and receive eternal materials to build with.

(And just to also point out that the foundation of Christ in us is not wood, hay and stubble or vain imagination.)

And for reading skills sake I have to point out that the reference is what we build UPON the foundation...not the quality of the foundation itself. A person who builds with unauthorized material will always use the foundation as an excuse. As in Lord, Lord. Only a humble God-fearing person has the sense to AVOID building according to one's own understanding...and defending that as if it didn't matter what was being built upon the pure foundation....saying...see look at my foundation, how pure it is... Such a reasoning doesn't come from heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

We are a mix of all i would say, only that Christ Jesus is at the fore front in regards what we do.

By Liberal i mean a broad scope of understanding of issues. and regarding Conservative i mean solid foundations. as a key into such regards.

I think a spiritual man would not make someone think that he is liberal leaning one day, and conservative leaning another day. It can look like a mix, I suppose. A Conservative will see a spiritual man as liberal or inclusive. A Liberal type person could see a spiritual man as being more conservative. To maintain balance, however, one needs to have discernment...knowing the way by a sensitivity to the Spirit's leading.


A carnal man can only build a life with the materials he has already. A spiritual man can go to God to receive materials that no man can conjure up. I spoke of that in my latest response to someone who can't see the importance of avoiding human reasoning...instead looking to the bible to try figuring things out, not realizing that there are thousands of ways to get it wrong.

The narrow way is very specific to God and His ways. We should at least be informed of God's ways, even if we are unable to remain in the narrow way. Better to fear the Lord and depart from iniquity, than to wallow in it while using Christ as a defense.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus is both the foundation and roof of the building. The author and finisher of our faith. Both the cornerstone of the foundation as well as the capstone of the building. He came to us the first time by His Spirit as promised (John 14:16-18), and there is a coming of the Lord "the second time" (on a personal level)..without sin unto salvation. Just as Moses struck the Rock (crucifixion for sin) the first time to obtain water of the Holy Spirit, but it didn't need to be struck the second time to obtain the water because it had already been struck (crucified) the first time. The Israelites were circumcised a "second time" after "dying" in the wilderness as a second and much deeper and more complete consecration that prepared and allowed them to take possession of the promise that was already imputed to them. The coming of Christ the second time does not mean He didn't come the first time. He can't come to anyone a second time without having the sure foundation of His coming to them the first time. We can be reassured and confident that the foundation is not an impediment to finishing the rest of the building but a necessity. Can't have the end without the beginning.

Jhn 14:16-18

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How wonderful, a quick word search of “the second time” in the old testament seems to confirm this truth, praise the Lord! He leads His people to that place where we begin to look for and seek for Him to come again the second time, as our eyes begin to open to realize our need for that.

(This "second coming" on a personal level does not deny that Christ is coming a second time in a historical sense as well, it is just another level, a personal level, of what scripture is also saying once we are ready to hear it. "One thing He has said, two things have I heard".)

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus is both the foundation and roof of the building. The author and finisher of our faith. Both the cornerstone of the foundation as well as the capstone of the building.

That's why I exhort those who have had a beginning in Christ to now go to Him for the whole measure...the finishing. Many nowadays will just assume and presume that going to God to purchase the full measure of grace is not necessary...using what one already has to try finishing their own faith...building with the materials at hand.

The fact remains that many will try building on the pure foundation which is Christ with their own materials. The ONLY way to build on a supernaturally pure foundation is with supernaturally pure materials.

Jesus counsels...come buy from Me..

He came to us the first time by His Spirit as promised (John 14:16-18), and there is a coming of the Lord "the second time" (on a personal level)..without sin unto salvation. Just as Moses struck the Rock (crucifixion for sin) the first time to obtain water of the Holy Spirit, but it didn't need to be struck the second time to obtain the water because it had already been struck (crucified) the first time. The Israelites were circumcised a "second time" after "dying" in the wilderness as a second and much deeper and more complete consecration that prepared and allowed them to take possession of the promise that was already imputed to them. The coming of Christ the second time does not mean He didn't come the first time. He can't come to anyone a second time without having the sure foundation of His coming to them the first time. We can be reassured and confident that the foundation is not an impediment to finishing the rest of the building but a necessity. Can't have the end without the beginning.

Jhn 14:16-18

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How wonderful, a quick word search of “the second time” in the old testament seems to confirm this truth, praise the Lord! He leads His people to that place where we begin to look for and seek for Him to come again the second time, as our eyes begin to open to realize our need for that.

(This "second coming" on a personal level does not deny that Christ is coming a second time in a historical sense as well, it is just another level, a personal level, of what scripture is also saying once we are ready to hear it. "One thing He has said, two things have I heard".)

Here you are confusing a second coming into the world with a second step in the personal race of faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

That's why I exhort those who have had a beginning in Christ to now go to Him for the whole measure...the finishing. Many nowadays will just assume and presume that going to God to purchase the full measure of grace is not necessary...using what one already has to try finishing their own faith...building with the materials at hand.

The fact remains that many will try building on the pure foundation which is Christ with their own materials. The ONLY way to build on a supernaturally pure foundation is with supernaturally pure materials.

Jesus counsels...come buy from Me..

Here you are confusing a second coming into the world with a second step in the personal race of faith.

Think we are agreed in principle on the first part (except as concerns how great that beginning and foundation is that we have been given).

But I gather you believe His second coming (historical sense) will be a "lo here he is or there" kind of coming when Jesus said it won't be. That is precisely what is going to trip up and deceive many.

Mar 13:21-23

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


2Th 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Episkopos]

In the framework of making disciples....I used to use this little story.

A young man went to China to learn martial arts and found the best master he could find...and asked him...how long will it take to make me as good as you are in the art? The master replied, 10 years. Perplexed, the young man said No, I would try harder than the usual student , I'm very devoted, having come all this way to learn. The master replied, 20 years, then. No no, the young man insisted, what if I try harder than any student you have ever known, training hard all day everyday day? The master replied. A lifetime.

I think that most people never get discipled. Either by other disciples or by God directly. They are not in the right frame of mind. And once a person has been a believer for a while, then the pride kicks in, as in...I already know all that...or so they think. We see the same way with people learning an instrument. They say you will probably not progress any further after playing for 10 years or so. And that is due to the limitations we place on ourselves.

As a corollary to that is another story...of a 90 year old cellist who still practiced for 4 hours a day. Asked why, at his age he still put that much effort into his instrument, replied "I'm starting to hear some improvement."

 

[Lizbeth]

Here you are confusing a second coming into the world with a second step in the personal race of faith.

I don't think a personal application nullifies an historical one.

Here I will just lay this out for your or anyone's consideration - don't mean to push it on anyone:

Gen 22:15-17

And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, (don’t think the wording is accidental)

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Promised blessing of fruitfulness and possessing the land of promise. After slaying our “Isaac”…burying our corn of wheat to die in order that it produce a crop. Goes against the grain (pun intended). It is in a sense a way of offering back to God what He has given us upon the altar. Like David when he poured out the drink…..seems like a waste but isn’t….it is what will bring an increase. A pruning of our fruitful branch to make it more fruitful, which Jesus said He would do.

Lev 13:58

And the garment, either warp, or woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.

Think that speaks for itself and doesn’t need explanation. Again I have to think this was written for a reason, not accidental. God doesn’t do things by accident.

Joshua 5:2

At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

It would be so hard for me to believe this wording is accidental. Especially since we know these were not the same literal individuals who had already been circumcised when they left Egypt, but who ended up “dying” in the wilderness.

If His first coming to us is likened in John’s gospel to the giving of the Holy Spirit, then it isn’t a stretch to liken His second coming as being in like manner (at least in one sense of what it means).

Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(And again this agrees exactly with the gushing forth of the water two times from the Rock in the wilderness, first time struck/crucified…second time not needing to be struck/crucified).

 

[Episkopos]

I don't think a personal application nullifies an historical one.

Here I will just lay this out for your or anyone's consideration - don't mean to push it on anyone:

Gen 22:15-17

And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, (don’t think the wording is accidental)

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Promised blessing of fruitfulness and possessing the land of promise. After slaying our “Isaac”…burying our corn of wheat to die in order that it produce a crop. Goes against the grain (pun intended). It is in a sense a way of offering back to God what He has given us upon the altar. Like David when he poured out the drink…..seems like a waste but isn’t….it is what will bring an increase. A pruning of our fruitful branch to make it more fruitful, which Jesus said He would do.

Lev 13:58

And the garment, either warp, or woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.

Think that speaks for itself and doesn’t need explanation. Again I have to think this was written for a reason, not accidental. God doesn’t do things by accident.

Joshua 5:2

At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

It would be so hard for me to believe this wording is accidental. Especially since we know these were not the same literal individuals who had already been circumcised when they left Egypt, but who ended up “dying” in the wilderness.

If His first coming to us is likened in John’s gospel to the giving of the Holy Spirit, then it isn’t a stretch to liken His second coming as being in like manner (at least in one sense of what it means).

Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(And again this agrees exactly with the gushing forth of the water two times from the Rock in the wilderness, first time struck/crucified…second time not needing to be struck/crucified).

Then by all means use that idea of going over a second time to complete the process as an exhortation to go to God for the full measure of grace. The "second blessing" as it were.

Let Jesus be both the author and finisher of faith as far as you are concerned.

 

[Episkopos]

There is a tremendous lack of disciples in the modern churches...and discipleship. True discipleship...the kind whereby people give their lives freely over to God in Christ...to be sheep in the midst of wolves. To live from the inner man when the whole world is vying for an outer man supremacy...including most believers. Jesus said His flock is a little flock. And never has that been more true than in our time. We are living in the time of the great apostasy...not an apostasy from religious Christendom...but a turning away from the true faith. The cost is too high for most; the scandal too unbearable; the truth too unpalatable. It is easy to deviate the gospel in its low resolution form, making it about numbers and religious conversions. Decisions for Christ are one thing, but God's approval quite another. Many will say Lord, Lord, but not many care to obey the Lord when the going is so uncertain for all who lack the faith OF Christ.