Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

[JesusIsFaithful]

Saying a man born again, IN CHRIST, has some dealing with "inquity", is false.

Then who was Paul talking to in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ? Unbelievers that has His seal? The vessels unto dishonor in His House has to come from somewhere. If saints repent from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, then they shall be received as vessels unto honor. Those that do not...

There is a race to be run, and it is by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin ( iniquity ). Hebrews 12:1-2

So a man born again can be found in iniquity which is why they are called to repent daily. We are not perfect yet but by living by faith in Him to finish His work in us, we will find ourselves following Him by the grace of God and His help. ( Philippians 1:6-11 & 2 Timothy 4:18 )

Saying a man believing, but not committed, is IN Christ, is false.

A believer that speaks of himself being committed is a false witness because that is testifying of himself ( John 5:31 ) which is to his own glory for keeping that commitment ( John 7:18 ) A believer either speaks of His faith in Him for how he is following Him or he labors in unbelief.

If a believer seeks to be justified by their commitment to Christ, they have fallen from grace because by that commitment is the knowledge of sin ( Romans 3:19-20 ). If you can't keep it without ever sinning, then that commitment is broken. Remaking it is living in denial that you can't keep it by the religious flesh ( Matthew 5:33-37 KJV ).

We can only follow Him by that same grace of God we were saved by and that s by faith in Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. No one in Heaven will be talking about their commitment to Christ where men can glorify themselves for keeping it. It will not happen.

No flesh shall glory in His Presence ( 1 Corinthians 1:19-21 ). His disciples that follow Him are doing so by faith in Him and all His promises to us in helping us to abide in Him and His words as His disciples. That is why it is ONLY written that the just shall live by faith, but a believer's commitment is not of faith and those that boast in them, shall be judged by them ( Romans 10:2-5 ).

The Lord Jesus Christ has set me free from my commitment to Him in making Him Lord of my life and from pledges and promises, and even a covenant with my mouth to stop habitually cussing when no one is around me. I had asked the Lord why He was not helping me keep the covenant with my mouth and I prayed in my thoughts that I know that He knew I want to stop this in according to His word. Then He answered, "You made the covenant. You said you were going to do it. I made the Covenant and I said I am going to do it. All I ask from you is to believe in Me."

It was from that supernatural intervention and yes, I did check with scripture which confirmed the word heard that God cannot help me keep my vow. I am required to do all that proceeds out of my mouth. ( Numbers 30:2 ) My vow, commitment, promise, covenant, whatever yoke of bondage that a man makes to do something.....that is my work and that is why He cannot help me finish it ( Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 ) That would be like God covering for us lying which He will not do. God made the New Covenant which is different from the Old because He is going to do it. Do we believe Him or not?

That is why we can rest in Jesus Christ for all things; our salvation and especially for following Him which is by denying ourselves as being able to, picking up the cross daily in crucifying ourselves as dead and thus really surrendering to that reality as being unable to follow Him, and trust Him to help us to follow Him. That is what He meant when He said "Follow Me." That is the same thing as saying, "Trust Me to help you to follow Me."

I no longer look to myself in doing the best I can when I know I can't do it. I rest in Him trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.

That is how I get to know Him and the power of His resurrection when I see myself following Him by my trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to do this.

Not every believer will apply faith in Him as their Good Shepherd to live as His disciples, but they are still His, because they have His seal of adoption.

The point of discipleship is not for salvation, but to be abiding in Him to bear fruit and be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House at the pre great trib rapture event when God judges His House. Those unrepentant saints found in iniquity, even former believers, will be "damned" as castaways, and that is how and why they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House because of that seal.

God the Father made a promise in that New Covenant that has been prophesied and hidden in Psalm 89 for what He will do for those in that New Covenant that were needing stripes for continual unrepentance, and that promise is that they are forever His.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Luke 12:40-49 shows the consequence for not being prepared which are stripes and He still calls them His servants in spite of those stripes.

The vessels unto dishonor are in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name ( John 1:12-13 ) as they will serve as a faithful witness of Him in that regard in Heaven.

 

[Taken]

Then who was Paul talking to in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ?

Who? He is speaking "TO" "students".
About Who?
...Those who are NOT YET sealed, ie STUDENTS themselves, "attempting" to INFLUENCE "other" students, WHEN THEY HAVE NOT YET the "TRUTH" "IN THEM".

Paul is telling "the students", in short, TO LISTEN TO THE "TEACHERS" who ARE sealed, and TO NOT BE SWAYED by INFLUENCES of "other" students.

WHY? So the "students" themselves, will be lead by the TEACHERS, so the "students" themselves WILL BE LEAD, in a direction THEY ALSO may become SEALED, and have the "TRUTH" IN THEM".

You HAVE to understand the BASICS....
1) TRUST to believe ALL scripture IS TRUE.
2) Be Lead BY "sealed" Teachers, NOT other students.
3) Anything ANYONE attempts to TELL YOU, (teacher or other student), Verify it with Scripture.
4) KNOW, no matter WHERE you are...;
OR WHO is telling you WHAT........
A Church, A fine influential home, A home of status, etc. Always VERIFY, BEFORE "simply" being SWAYED by what you are being TOLD.

Unbelievers that has His seal?

Unbelievers with His Seal? No such thing!

You must understand the BASICS...

People absolutely CAN AND DO;
Believe....without having become sealed.
....THEY are the Beginning STUDENTS...
....NOT yet Born Again.
Have Faith....without having become sealed.
....THEY are the Beginning STUDENTS...
....NOT yet Born Again.

Beginning "STUDENTS", NOT YET SEALED, ARE NOT "TEACHERS"....whether or not THEY ATTEMPT and TRY to be "teachers"...!!!

You must understand the BASICS...
Believing.....DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN "SEALED".

In Faith......DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN "SEALED".

SEALED; BORN AGAIN: Means SEALED.
Being SEALED, does not always MEAN "TEACHER".

A SEALED person IS a born again person.
TO become SEALED...
Yes they are believers.
Yes they are faithful.
Yes they can be teachers.

However, so are men believers and have faith, BEFORE they become SEALED.

It is their believing, their faith, THAT LEADS them to BECOMING SEALED....born again.

And BEFORE they ARE SEALED....
Even thou they are believing, have faith....
THEY can STILL SIN, STILL walk away, STILL be Natural (earthly), STILL go to Church, STILL attempt to Teach others, STILL influence others......and STILL be "seen" and "observed" by others "AS" "believers and faithful"...

That's nice, what "others" may observe.
However, IT IS the Lord ALONE who determines WHO is:
"FOLLOWING ALONG", learning, believing, has faith............
AND WHO has:
Commited "their life" TO HIM; and He has forgiven, Converted, Sealed...and given His Seed, for them TO "BE" converted and born again.

The vessels unto dishonor in His House has to come from somewhere.

Sure they do. Look about ANY Church. You think EVERYONE sitting in a Church is BORN AGAIN? Of course not. If they were, NEVER would you see ANYONE going to an Alter call.

Understand the basics.
Sitting in Church's all across the world;
Are People WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, but are there to HEAR and LEARN.
Are People WHO ARE HEARING, ARE LEARING, and beginning to BELIEVE.
Are People WHO ARE Hearing are Believing, some things,but not quite all they are hearing.
Are People WHO ARE "studying", trusting, all they hear.
Are People WHO ARE "verifying" what they hear.
Are People WHO ARE "believing" ANYTHING, they "hear" within Church WALLS, wether it be from A teacher, OR other "listener /student".

Understand the basics.
What is the Word of Truth...
Do YOU "TRUST" the Word of Truth...
Learn what it means to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth.
2 Tim 2:15

I would suggest you LEARN what that means, SO YOU CAN KNOW "WHO" "IS" being spoken "TO" in Scripture.

Because Paul, like every Apostle spoke to Crowds, Just a Preacher does in a Church.
And within those "crowds";
NOT all believe, some believe, some have faith, but are NOT sanctified, saved or born again, and others ARE, sanctified AND saved and born again.

And there IS a difference Between ALL THREE.
Unbeleving-
Believing - but NOT born again
Believing - AND born again.

And to recognize the Apostles TAUGHT in first person. Often using "I", "We"....as examples.

They taught...to those already Born Again...
And to those NOT yet Born Again...

If saints repent from iniquity

Non-sensical.
Men are CALLED to BECOME "saints".
A man IS NOT A SAINT, "until" he has become BORN AGAIN.
A man WHO has BECOME born again...
Already Repented TO CHRIST, FOR his sins.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Non-sensical.
Men are CALLED to BECOME "saints".
A man IS NOT A SAINT, "until" he has become BORN AGAIN.
A man WHO has BECOME born again...
Already Repented TO CHRIST, FOR his sins.

Are you running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin or are you already finished? Hebrews 12:1-2 Are you really that perfect now? Paul wasn't. ( Philippians 3:12-15 ) He even declared that if he did not continually bring his body into subjection, he could become a castaway as well. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Believers have been warned about what they sow towards because God is not mocked. Galatians 6:7-8

What is built on that foundation that defiles the temple of God, that temple ( the physical body ) shall be destroyed, but the spirit shall be saved as per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 That is why the call is given out to all believers and even former believers still having His seal for they are to depart from iniquity if they seek to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor into His House to attend the Marriage Supper held in His honor.

Until you deal with those scripture proving it is nonsense, then you really do not have an explanation for why God is judging His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) nor why Jesus was warning believers to be ready, not unbelievers in Luke 12:40-49

 

[Copperhead]

I really don't think you understand even the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that you appear to be on. It's a theory that began with certain factions in 1830's Great Britain. It's an idea that was never preached in the Christian Church for over 1,800 years. So I suggest you seriously research the origin of the doctrine and learn its history if you're going to believe the theory.

I realize it is a common mantra that the pre-trib thing was started in the 19th century, but that really isn't the case. It was indeed popularized in the 19th which came from a "return to the Bible and teaching verse by verse" concept that took hold after the reformation, but has roots going way back. There are writings we have from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century that make references to a removal of the righteous before the major cataclysmic event that comes upon the earth.

Some who hold a particular position will call all the others "theories" while they call their own "doctrine". That really isn't proof of anything, just a loaded way to demean any opposing view. All positions are based on scriptural evidence and in a technical sense are all theories. It is more akin to legal thought. One looks at the evidence and arrives at a conclusion. And each person sees the evidence a little differently. Pitfalls occur when one only pays attention to verses that support their own idea of these things without taking in all the scripture.

And there is no objective evidence to support your assertion that the idea of a pre-trib was never taught in the church for 1800 years. I would agree with that if you are only referring to the state churches, specifically Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, etc. But among independent groups there were many scriptural concepts taught that the mainline state churches did not support. Just the idea of Salvation by Faith alone was anathema to the "church" for over 1000 years. Many devout believers willingly were burned at the stake by those in the established "churches" for upholding Salvation by Faith alone. And many also were tortured and killed for holding to Sola Scriptura.

To base a rebuttal of a concept based on what the "church" didn't teach or hold to is very weak support. The church couldn't make it out of the first century before it started having serious doctrinal problems. Read the letters to the Churches in Revelation along with letters written by the Apostles.

 

[Davy]

I realize it is a common mantra that the pre-trib thing was started in the 19th century, but that really isn't the case. It was indeed popularized in the 19th which came from a "return to the Bible and teaching verse by verse" concept that took hold after the reformation, but has roots going way back. There are writings we have from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century that make references to a removal of the righteous before the major cataclysmic event that comes upon the earth.

There were supposedly... some writings in the early Church, but those have been proven not to be covering a pre-trib rapture idea at all. Instead, the pre-trib doctors have been caught attempting revisionism of history on the origin of the doctrine.

PRE-TRIB REVISORS KEEP FABRICATING

Some who hold a particular position will call all the others "theories" while they call their own "doctrine". That really isn't proof of anything, just a loaded way to demean any opposing view. All positions are based on scriptural evidence and in a technical sense are all theories. It is more akin to legal thought. One looks at the evidence and arrives at a conclusion. And each person sees the evidence a little differently. Pitfalls occur when one only pays attention to verses that support their own idea of these things without taking in all the scripture.

If it is a theory, it means it is not yet proven as fact. If it is an idea supposedly taught in God's Word, then it is presented as Biblical 'doctrine', whether it be true or not. The pre-trib rapture is a doctrine of men in this case, and likewise is a theory. It's a 'doctrine of men' because it is not a Biblical doctrine.

And there is no objective evidence to support your assertion that the idea of a pre-trib was never taught in the church for 1800 years. I would agree with that if you are only referring to the state churches, specifically Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, etc. But among independent groups there were many scriptural concepts taught that the mainline state churches did not support. Just the idea of Salvation by Faith alone was anathema to the "church" for over 1000 years. Many devout believers willingly were burned at the stake by those in the established "churches" for upholding Salvation by Faith alone. And many also were tortured and killed for holding to Sola Scriptura.

The first origins of the doctrine being preached in the Church was in 1800's Great Britain with Irving and Darby. It was then pushed in America through Scofield's study Bible.

The Real Manuel Lacunza

To base a rebuttal of a concept based on what the "church" didn't teach or hold to is very weak support. The church couldn't make it out of the first century before it started having serious doctrinal problems. Read the letters to the Churches in Revelation along with letters written by the Apostles.

There is no early Church father writings that I have read that ever taught a pre-trib rapture. It's actually enough to know it is not Biblical doctrine because nowhere in The Bible can such a doctrine be supported. Jesus and Apostle Paul were emphatic that the gathering of the Church is after Antichrist shows up and Jesus comes to destroy him, after the great tribulation (2 Thess.2; Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There is no early Church father writings that I have read that ever taught a pre-trib rapture. It's actually enough to know it is not Biblical doctrine because nowhere in The Bible can such a doctrine be supported. Jesus and Apostle Paul were emphatic that the gathering of the Church is after Antichrist shows up and Jesus comes to destroy him, after the great tribulation (2 Thess.2; Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

As christian men develop doctrine from the scripture, and sometime misrepresenting the whole of scripture in doing so, so can opposer to any doctrine in overlooking apart from doctrine what scripture actually teach, especially when confusing events within the great tribulation from events that shall happen before the great tribulation.

You have to address each scriptural reference in the first five post to prove how the warnings to believers can apply at the end of the great tribulation. If you cannot resolve how the times Jesus is warning believers that are living in the great tribulation when His words sounds like the times we are living in now, then you have to conclude that the warnings apply to before the world is in that great tribulation. That means Christ's the firstfruits is not going through the great tribulation and they that be Christ's at His coming are those unrepentant saints left behind with new believers that did go through the great tribulation as they be Christ's at His coming.

Matthew 13:33 holds the key to seeing how 3 harvests makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven; Christ's the firstfruits, & then they that be Christ at His coming, and those who remain loyal to Christ in spite of when Satan is released from the pit to tempt the generations coming out of the millennium for a small season season after a thousand year reign of Christ.

You have to weigh all the variables in why there has to be one more trial before death and hell is done away with, because there is one more harvest after the great tribulation for those that came out from under the hour of temptation that tried all on the earth which is the second harvest.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So does what makes up the kingdom of heaven hidden from most believers today? Yes, if they continue to refuse why God will excommunicate unrepentant believers that are disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper at the firstfruits of the resurrection which is the first harvest. As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do for having a proper fellowship at the supper table for no saint still in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes are allowed to attend with the O.T. saints. Luke 13:24-30 speaks of the uniqueness of those that attend who are to sit at that table just as Matthew 7:13-27 testify why God is judging His House first because of false prophets within.

 

[Copperhead]

Irenaeus (2nd century who was associated with Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John) was pretty clear in one part of his writings (probably his profound "Against Heresies" treatise) where he wrote (and I am paraphrasing because I don't have it lying in front of me now), "those who do not hold to a pre-millennial view do not understand prophecy and should not be teaching it." I will try to track down the exact quote. I am out of town on business now, so hang loose.

Ephraim The Syrian is pretty solid, mid 300's AD. The main sermon he wrote, commonly known as Pseudo Ephraim, is clearly pre-millennial and pre-trib. It has been debated who wrote it, but two Christian writers of period said it was Ephraim. Only one person of the period attributed it to Issador. So the preponderance of evidence swings toward Ephraim. In either case, it was a recognized document during the period by others, not some Medieval concoction dreamed up by drunken monks or some other poppycock that critics come up with. What modern textual critics think today is hardly relevant since we have early Christian authors who substantiate its existence.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So does what makes up the kingdom of heaven hidden from most believers today? Yes, if they continue to refuse why God will excommunicate unrepentant believers that are disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper at the firstfruits of the resurrection which is the first harvest. As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do for having a proper fellowship at the supper table for no saint still in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes are allowed to attend with the O.T. saints. Luke 13:24-30 speaks of the uniqueness of those that attend who are to sit at that table just as Matthew 7:13-27 testify why God is judging His House first because of false prophets within.

We always have to let scripture interpret scripture. Leaven throughout scripture has been an idiom of sin. The 3 measures of meal was established by Abraham as the fellowship when he had Sarah prepare 3 measures of meal "unleavened" for the Lord and the two angels who eventually went on to Sodom to destroy it. So the parable of the Leaven, being one of the kingdom parables (as stated by Yeshua), is showing that even in the millennial kingdom, sin is hidden in the kingdom and continues to permeate the entire thing until the rebellion led by Satan when he is released (Rev 20). The hermeneutic principle of the "law of first mention" is in play. That is basically the concept that the Holy Spirit tends to use idioms in similar ways throughout scripture. It creates a baseline of scripture interpretation. Otherwise, interpretation is all over the map and nothing definitive can be determined. Leaven is an idiom of sin in both the OT and NT. Yeshua even used the word to describe the sin of the pharisees.

It takes a little twisting of things, and it makes no sense, to imply that the Kingdom of Heaven is Leaven (sin) and the woman is hiding meal in it. That seems to be what you are implying. Might be an error on my part. The way the passage is worded, it shows how hard it is sometimes to do word for word literal translation from one language to another. Let's take, say German. We would tell someone "go throw some hay over the fence to the cow". In German, the proper word order would end up looking like this.... "go throw the cow over the fence some hay". This is what is going on when the translators took the Greek and tried to word order the English the same way. And keep in mind, there was no sentence punctuation in Greek like is in the English translation, so one cannot impose that on the original.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Irenaeus (2nd century who was associated with Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John) was pretty clear in one part of his writings (probably his profound "Against Heresies" treatise) where he wrote (and I am paraphrasing because I don't have it lying in front of me now), "those who do not hold to a pre-millennial view do not understand prophecy and should not be teaching it." I will try to track down the exact quote. I am out of town on business now, so hang loose.

Ephraim The Syrian is pretty solid, mid 300's AD. The main sermon he wrote, commonly known as Pseudo Ephraim, is clearly pre-millennial and pre-trib. It has been debated who wrote it, but two Christian writers of period said it was Ephraim. Only one person of the period attributed it to Issador. So the preponderance of evidence swings toward Ephraim. In either case, it was a recognized document during the period by others, not some Medieval concoction dreamed up by drunken monks or some other poppycock that critics come up with. What modern textual critics think today is hardly relevant since we have early Christian authors who substantiate its existence.

We always have to let scripture interpret scripture. Leaven throughout scripture has been an idiom of sin. The 3 measures of meal was established by Abraham as the fellowship when he had Sarah prepare 3 measures of meal "unleavened" for the Lord and the two angels who eventually went on to Sodom to destroy it. So the parable of the Leaven, being one of the kingdom parables (as stated by Yeshua), is showing that even in the millennial kingdom, sin is hidden in the kingdom and continues to permeate the entire thing until the rebellion led by Satan when he is released (Rev 20). The hermeneutic principle of the "law of first mention" is in play. That is basically the concept that the Holy Spirit tends to use idioms in similar ways throughout scripture. It creates a baseline of scripture interpretation. Otherwise, interpretation is all over the map and nothing definitive can be determined. Leaven is an idiom of sin in both the OT and NT. Yeshua even used the word to describe the sin of the pharisees.

It takes a little twisting of things, and it makes no sense, to imply that the Kingdom of Heaven is Leaven (sin) and the woman is hiding meal in it. That seems to be what you are implying. Might be an error on my part. The way the passage is worded, it shows how hard it is sometimes to do word for word literal translation from one language to another. Let's take, say German. We would tell someone "go throw some hay over the fence to the cow". In German, the proper word order would end up looking like this.... "go throw the cow over the fence some hay". This is what is going on when the translators took the Greek and tried to word order the English the same way. And keep in mind, there was no sentence punctuation in Greek like is in the English translation, so one cannot impose that on the original.

Leaven may have been used as a symbol of sin, but not always because of how it is being used in Matthew 13:33. Otherwise, that would mean God is making the kingdom of heaven into sin. Leaven makes the bread rise. So in that sense, the kingdom of heaven shall rise out of the 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven. Wisdom is needed from the Lord if one wishes to understand why leaven was being used in Matthew 13:33.

 

[Copperhead]

Leaven may have been used as a symbol of sin, but not always because of how it is being used in Matthew 13:33. Otherwise, that would mean God is making the kingdom of heaven into sin. Leaven makes the bread rise. So in that sense, the kingdom of heaven shall rise out of the 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven. Wisdom is needed from the Lord if one wishes to understand why leaven was being used in Matthew 13:33.

You miss the point. It is the Messianic Kingdom of the future that will have sin eventually permeated thru it. That is why Satan when he is released in Revelation 12 (emphasized in Psalms 2) is able to foment a world wide rebellion against Yeshua one last time.

 

[Davy]

As christian men develop doctrine from the scripture, and sometime misrepresenting the whole of scripture in doing so, so can opposer to any doctrine in overlooking apart from doctrine what scripture actually teach, especially when confusing events within the great tribulation from events that shall happen before the great tribulation.

You have to address each scriptural reference in the first five post to prove how the warnings to believers can apply at the end of the great tribulation. If you cannot resolve how the times Jesus is warning believers that are living in the great tribulation when His words sounds like the times we are living in now, then you have to conclude that the warnings apply to before the world is in that great tribulation. That means Christ's the firstfruits is not going through the great tribulation and they that be Christ's at His coming are those unrepentant saints left behind with new believers that did go through the great tribulation as they be Christ's at His coming.

Matthew 13:33 holds the key to seeing how 3 harvests makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven; Christ's the firstfruits, & then they that be Christ at His coming, and those who remain loyal to Christ in spite of when Satan is released from the pit to tempt the generations coming out of the millennium for a small season season after a thousand year reign of Christ.

You have to weigh all the variables in why there has to be one more trial before death and hell is done away with, because there is one more harvest after the great tribulation for those that came out from under the hour of temptation that tried all on the earth which is the second harvest.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So does what makes up the kingdom of heaven hidden from most believers today? Yes, if they continue to refuse why God will excommunicate unrepentant believers that are disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper at the firstfruits of the resurrection which is the first harvest. As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do for having a proper fellowship at the supper table for no saint still in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes are allowed to attend with the O.T. saints. Luke 13:24-30 speaks of the uniqueness of those that attend who are to sit at that table just as Matthew 7:13-27 testify why God is judging His House first because of false prophets within.

No, in Matthew, the key on the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of the saints is this:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Whether one want's to believe in a pre-trib rapture, or a post-trib rapture, or even a mid-trib rapture, or no rapture at all, those direct words by our Lord Jesus Christ are still the same, His 2nd coming is after that tribulation which is also when He gathers His Church.

 

[Copperhead]

Of course, that is assuming the only “elect” is the Church. Isaiah says that Israel is also God’s elect.

Isaiah 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Being elect is not the same as being saved in all instances. Israel is a earthly, national identity. The Ekklesia is a spiritual identity. Each group has different purposes and destinies.

The Land we know as Israel was promised to Abraham and his descendants forever. There has to be physical, mortal people to go into the Messianic Kingdom to repopulate it.

Also, keep it in focus, the Ekklesia is never mentioned again after Revelation 3. So the Elect mentioned later could very well be a different group than the Ekklesia as we know it now.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You miss the point. It is the Messianic Kingdom of the future that will have sin eventually permeated thru it. That is why Satan when he is released in Revelation 12 (emphasized in Psalms 2) is able to foment a world wide rebellion against Yeshua one last time.

That does not explain the three measures of meal that is hidden that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

For you to claim the leaven to be sin in Matthew 13:33, is to declare that the kingdom of heaven is sin but will be sin forever.

So the analogy to leaven is about when the kingdom of heaven is done, made up of three measures of meal, that is 3 harvests, like as a leaven, the 3 harvests will rise out of what makes the kingdom of heaven as a whole.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

No, in Matthew, the key on the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of the saints is this:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Whether one want's to believe in a pre-trib rapture, or a post-trib rapture, or even a mid-trib rapture, or no rapture at all, those direct words by our Lord Jesus Christ are still the same, His 2nd coming is after that tribulation which is also when He gathers His Church.

The tribulation spoken of is the one we are living in; not the great tribulation. The falling away from the faith is the tribulation we are living in for why God is coming to judge His House first. Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 is God judging His House because of unrepentant iniquity at the pre trib rapture event. That is why the 7 churches in Revelation were being warned to avoid being cast into the great tribulation as the church at Thyatira was so plainly warned.

Think about this. Revelation 20th chapter has the Lord on earth, defeating the world's armies and having out Satan in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE the so called "first resurrection" of those saints specifically raised from the dead as those that came out of the great tribulation. The Lord is not in the air meeting those saints at the end of the great tribulation. So that event is before.

You cannot see the 3 events in Matthew 24th chapter, but I do. The temple they were looking at has obviously been thrown down 70 A.D.. So does that mean everything else has happened as well? Some will argue that the Temple was indeed violated by the destroyer of that Temple, but there was no peace treaty and there certainly was no return of Christ to defeat the armies against Jerusalem at that time.

So if you agree that not everything in Matthew 24th chapter is referring to one specific time period, then you have to discern with Him the possibility that you are confusing why He is warning His people during the tribulation and that is to avoid being in the great tribulation that is coming.

The uniqueness of the great tribulation cannot be overlooked when there is a hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth when the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy and sell to survive after that calamity of fire that destroys one third of the earth is the lake of fire... no ifs and buts about it. Those who refuse the mark or bow to the NWO, will be spared when Christ established His reign on earth when He comes back as the King of kings.

Now if that is why He is coming back as the King of kings to judge the world in establishing His reign on earth, then when is He judging His House?

When is He coming back as the Bridegroom to receive the prudent virgins to sit down at the Marriage Supper, and not as the King of kings? It has to be an an earlier time and it certainly lines up with His warnings for why believers are to be ready in a time not descriptive as the end of the great tribulation.

 

[Copperhead]

That does not explain the three measures of meal that is hidden that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

For you to claim the leaven to be sin in Matthew 13:33, is to declare that the kingdom of heaven is sin but will be sin forever.

So the analogy to leaven is about when the kingdom of heaven is done, made up of three measures of meal, that is 3 harvests, like as a leaven, the 3 harvests will rise out of what makes the kingdom of heaven as a whole.

I did not declare the the kingdom of heaven is sin or that it will be sin forever. I did state that the Messianic Kingdom here on earth would be infected and eventually permeated with sin that would eventually grow throughout the kingdom (like leaven permeates a loaf) with the final rebellion occurring when Satan is released. And Psalms 2 has a dialogue between the Trinity regarding this rebellion. That rebellion (Revelation 20) will be squashed by the Lord and then we see Him causing the old earth to pass away and the new earth being brought forth per Revelation 21.

But let's look a couple more of the Kingdom Parables and see if they support this wild eyed notion of mine about the leaven.

The Parable of the Sower, we see the birds are representative of Satan's emissaries and are snatching away the seed. Yeshua says this in His explanation of the Parable of the Sower.

So we then know what the birds are. So we use the hermetic principle of Law of First Mention and move forward to the Parable of the Mustard Seed. When that mustard seed grows into a tree (which is an anomaly by the way. Mustard plants are not trees), the birds are nesting in the branches. So we see that Satan's emissaries are permeating and nesting in the branches of the Messianic Kingdom. Ah... so the fomenters of sin are embedded within the branches of the Kingdom. This compliments the assumption that Leaven (Sin) is being introduced into the Kingdom and eventually permeates the entire thing.

And is there actually sin in the Messianic Kingdom, or is that a preposterous assumption?

Zechariah 14:16-19 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Sounds like a little discontent within the Messianic Kingdom to me. Yeshua the King is ruling in Jerusalem. Some folks are not showing up like they are supposed to do and ticking the King off so that He withholds rain from their land and whatever plague is in view.

Eventually it comes to a head. And we see those nations that have ticked off the Lord finally desiring to get out from under the Lord's control.....

Psalms 2:1-3 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I did not declare the the kingdom of heaven is sin or that it will be sin forever.

I know you didn't but to apply sin to leaven in Matthew 13:33 would imply that you see Matthew 13:33 as saying that if you stick to it as meaning so.

Which is why leaven cannot always mean sin because of Matthew 13:33.

Thanks for sharing, brother. One day, we shall all know the truth on this issue.

 

[Copperhead]

I know you didn't but to apply sin to leaven in Matthew 13:33 would imply that you see Matthew 13:33 as saying that if you stick to it as meaning so.

Which is why leaven cannot always mean sin because of Matthew 13:33.

Thanks for sharing, brother. One day, we shall all know the truth on this issue.

We have to rely on a hermeneutic principle of Law of First Mention. That the Holy Spirit tends to use idioms in similar fashion throughout scripture. And leaven has always had a negative connotation and symbolic of sin or corruption.

Matthew 16:6 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

Exodus 12:15 (NKJV) Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.

Leviticus 2:11 (NKJV) “No grain offering which you bring to the Lord shall be made with leaven, for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey in any offering to the Lord made by fire.

The woman (Matt 13) is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal, which is the same as the fellowship offering at the Temple. To do so is sin and one who does that is to be stoned to death per the scripture.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

We have to rely on a hermeneutic principle of Law of First Mention. That the Holy Spirit tends to use idioms in similar fashion throughout scripture. And leaven has always had a negative connotation and symbolic of sin or corruption.

Matthew 16:6 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

There is leaven that is credit for why bread rises in baking a complete bread from which is the symbol illustrated in Matthew 13:33. And then there is leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Exodus 12:15 (NKJV) Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.

Diet restriction per leavened bread. We eat leavened bread for sandwiches every day, don't we? We are not under that law any more any way.

Leviticus 2:11 (NKJV) “No grain offering which you bring to the Lord shall be made with leaven, for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey in any offering to the Lord made by fire.

Offering restrictions to the Lord.

The woman (Matt 13) is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal, which is the same as the fellowship offering at the Temple. To do so is sin and one who does that is to be stoned to death per the scripture.

And once again, you are ignoring how you are condemning the kingdom of heaven as something that needs to be condemned. Leaven cannot be sin when it is "like" the kingdom of heaven. Seeing the use for leaven in what makes up the kingdom of heaven as a whole is not referring to sin at all.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

[Copperhead]

But what is it about leaven that makes it a almost perfect idiom for sin and corruption? It is that leaven expands and causes dough to rise. Pride, which is the basis of most sin and corruption does the same thing... it puffs up. It was the one major thing in why Satan fell.

 

[Davy]

The tribulation spoken of is the one we are living in; not the great tribulation. The falling away from the faith is the tribulation we are living in for why God is coming to judge His House first. Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 is God judging His House because of unrepentant iniquity at the pre trib rapture event. That is why the 7 churches in Revelation were being warned to avoid being cast into the great tribulation as the church at Thyatira was so plainly warned.

The "great tribulation" event Jesus forewarned of is for the very end of this world, the final generation on earth that will see His 2nd coming. We are not there yet. Because of men's doctrines, many don't understand the difference between past times of tribulation and persecution of the saints vs. the coming "great tribulation" event, even the difference between today and that future "time of trouble" (what Daniel 12 calls it). The Antichrist must be here doing great signs and wonders on earth, proclaiming to be God, in Jerusalem. All wars stopped. Those are just a couple of the signs our Lord Jesus gave. And the level of those miracles that 'man of sin' will do on earth will be so powerful that it would, if possible, even deceive Christ's own very elect. That was one of the signs Jesus gave in Matt.24, and Rev.13:11 forward and 2 Thess.2 also describes that coming false one. It ain't no pope either.

 

[Copperhead]

And the level of those miracles that 'man of sin' will do on earth will be so powerful that it would, if possible, even deceive Christ's own very elect.

I was going with your roll until this one.

Yeshua did say what you are asserting, that if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived. The neat thing in that statement that I think gets missed by some is the "if it were possible". That is a positive statement! The implication is that it isn't possible to deceive the elect!

But I am not sure that the church is in view here, if that is what you were alluding to. Allow me explain....

The NT was not in hand when Yeshua made this statement. He is a Jewish Messiah speaking to literate Jewish brethren. They knew the scriptures. The Ekklesia or Church would not begin for almost 2 months.

A hermeneutic principle comes in to play. How was elect used in scripture prior to Yeshua mentioning the elect? Elect is only mentioned 4 times in the OT and all of them in Isaiah. The first (Isaiah 42:1) seems pretty clear it is a reference to the future Messiah. However, all the other references are to pretty much of Israel. Isaiah 45:4 and Isaiah 65:9 seem to be referencing Israel.

Even the passage in Isaiah 65 which talks of the elect. I know, I know, there is a reference in verse 17 of that chapter regarding a new heaven and new earth. But the passage also states that the people being talked about will bear children and have offspring. It talks of a child dying at 100 years and a sinner being accursed. So all of the references in this passage, the new heaven and new earth must be the restored heaven and earth that starts the Messianic kingdom. The New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation, death has been cast into the lake of fire, so it cannot be the same reference as in Isaiah 65.

So I tend to side with the elect Yeshua is talking about as being Israel, not the church. Now if you were intending to mean God's elect and that being Israel, then I could go along with that.

It is true, that those that are part of the Church are also God's elect. But so was Cyrus of Persia. And we have no real basis in scripture to make a conclusion that he was saved in any way. Just that he was God's chosen/elect/anointed to allow the Hebrews to return to the land after the captivity in Babylon.