Lucifer the once beautifully arrayed angel... explain please!

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Aunty Jane

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If one were inclined to interpret the story of two trees in Eden rather than treat it literally (but I think you are literalist), then we might say that there were two kings in Eden, and Adam put his alliance with the wrong one.
If I didn’t take the Edenic scenario as literal, there would be no sense in Jesus coming to earth in human form to undo what satan and Adam did to the human race. (Rom 5:12) It has to be literal.

The “two trees” in the garden represent two choices......one was centered on obedience and it’s consequence, and the other on disobedience and it’s opposite consequence....so the two trees represented disobedience and death, verses obedience and life.....from this we see that obedience is all God has ever demanded from his intelligent creation, both in heaven and on earth. He wanted the humans to live forever on this earth with no knowledge of evil ever touching their lives (Gen 3:22-24).....he was the ultimate parent, only wanting good things for his children. But disobedience had dire consequences and his human children would ultimately benefit from a hard object lesson that has been running now since the fall.

You can read “two kings” into that scenario as it turned out, but originally the penalty of death was only to be applied if they disobeyed.....exercise of free will meant that a number of choices were available to all three rebels in Eden.

The angel who made himself satan the devil, had the choice in the beginning to pull himself up and realise that rebellion could only end badly, yet he chose it anyway. (James 1:14-15) He targeted the woman first, since she was the ‘newbie’ and the least experienced and educated of the two. It was premeditated and carefully calculated to approach her first, when Adam was not with her.

The woman reiterated God’s command to the serpent so she knew what God’s law was, yet she was tempted by the lies she was told, and disobeyed. He told her she would not die, and when she ate and did not die she offered the fruit to Adam. Little did she know that from that first bite, something cut her off from life.....she began to physically die, but her spiritual death meant immediate separation from her Creator.

Adam could have made a different choice as well.....and rejected the offer of the fruit, but it would have meant losing her, which was apparently unimaginable to him.....so he chose to join her, knowing that death was the penalty.....and as a consequence that he could not have imagined at the time, threw all his future children under the bus. The blame was laid squarely at the feet of Adam......and applying the laws of redemption, only the offering of an equivalent life could rescue them from the curse of sin and death.

It is apparent that Adam had existed for some time before a mate was created for him. His expression when the woman was brought to him indicated that he was delighted with her....now he too had a mate. So the guardian who was present in the garden as a “covering cherub” observed this and used her to get to him.

Adam was educated by God after his creation, and given the privilege of naming all the animals which would share life with them in paradise. If satan had approached Adam first, the odds are that his offer would have been rejected, and satan would have been dealt with behind the scenes......but using the woman as bait, the Bible says that she was “thoroughly deceived”....but Adam was not. His choice to join his wife was entirely selfish and wilful.......as was Eve’s desire for the fruit......and satan’s desire for worship.
Abuse of free will is at the base of all that is evil in this world.

If we could not learn the value of obedience, there was no point in God continuing on with his first purpose....to populate the earth with humankind, made in his image, and capable of using his cardinal qualities to further God’s purpose for the earth, (to be filled with righteous humans and spreading the borders of their paradise until the whole earth was like the garden of Eden).....and who knows what else is in God’s infinite plans? I am sure he did not create this vast universe for nothing.....

But this matter of free will had to be sorted first, so that no rebel in the future could ever take God’s purpose off track again. Satan did not challenge God’s power....he challenged his Sovereignty...his right to set the limits of the freedom he gave them. That challenged had to be addressed and to show where independence from God will lead us. The object lesson we have all been subjected to, difficult though it has been to endure at times, will benefit all redeemed mankind on into eternity....
 
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strepho

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Ezekiel 28 has nothing to do with fallen angels or anything of the like. This is a case of people reading things into the Word which are not there.

F2F
Sir. Ezekiel chapter 28 is about Lucifer.

Jude in the bible, is partly about the fallen angels.

I said nothing about fallen angels in Ezekiel chapter 28.

Your the one making distortions.

I moved on to other subjects.
 

face2face

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Sir. Ezekiel chapter 28 is about Lucifer.
Correct about the morning day star

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says Eze 28:11–12.

Point 1. Bible students need to read the Bible with care.
Point 2. If you don't understand the lament don't pretend to make something up
Point 3. If you don't understand pray, ask and seek guidance from those who do

F2F
 

strepho

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Sir
Correct about the morning day star

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says Eze 28:11–12.

Point 1. Bible students need to read the Bible with care.
Point 2. If you don't understand the lament don't pretend to make something up
Point 3. If you don't understand pray, ask and seek guidance from those who do

Sir. I made no false statements.

I properly, and effectively documentation of Ezekiel chapter 28. That its about satan.

I'm trained by pastor Arnold murray and dennis murray of shepherds chapel. I studied under pastor murray for 20 years.

I have King James companion bible and STRONGS concordance.

Respectively speaking.

Your trying to undermine me.

I moved on to other subjects.
Peace.
 

Taken

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“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit” (Isaiah 14:12–15, NKJV).

In common usage, Lucifer is another name for Satan. Famously, John Milton used this name for Satan in Paradise Lost. There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan.” In fact, there is some dispute as to whether Lucifer is even a proper name in the Bible. (gotquestions.org)

It’s a matter of connecting the clues…
Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 

face2face

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Sir


Sir. I made no false statements.

I properly, and effectively documentation of Ezekiel chapter 28. That its about satan.

I'm trained by pastor Arnold murray and dennis murray of shepherds chapel. I studied under pastor murray for 20 years.

I have King James companion bible and STRONGS concordance.

Respectively speaking.

Your trying to undermine me.

I moved on to other subjects.
Peace.
Nothing there worthy of a response.
The Word is clear and you are not
F2F
 

face2face

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My last reply.

It's obvious who you serve.

It isn't Jesus.
You make false claims about an entire section of Scripture to which evidence of those claims are provided only to have you reply like this? Where is your humility strepho?

Go back and deal with the deal or move on in error.

F2F
 

face2face

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I don't see any connection between this so called Lucifer and Satan or the verse you are mentioning for that matter as I don't see the name Lucifer ever come up in scripture but once.
What I've learned in my time as a Bible student is how "some" can read the in context on "some" subjects and arrive at truth while others have completely no idea of what they are saying. Take @strepho as an example - they made false claims, to which was provided a clear verse and watch how they quote their blind leaders for authourity?

Now age 10 Sunday school students will tell you this section is a lament for the King of Tyre; what they won’t be able to tell you is what it means, because that requires understanding of how the Lord God phrases His Word for our learning but particularly for Israel of the day.

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Eze 28:11–12.

Now Aunty Jane is someone who understand Bible Context and they ask others often to read with care but even she fails this section of Scripture forcing the notion of fallen angels which is nowhere spoken of in the chapter.

I am brought to Remember there is indoctrinated beliefs of some Christian denominations taught and conveyed by them and it is perpetuated over the years and passed down from generation to generation.
Correct! This whole thread is a fabrication of those false beliefs built upon by people over and over until its tracks in their minds! If they knew nothing of the false teaching of fallen angels and they read this section of Scripture for the first time they would never beleive such evil imaginations!

I am not saying Lucifer is good. Nor can I see a connection that he is the devil. I do know we are instructed by apostles who do have authority from God by the witness of the Holy Ghost of connections of names used in the bible that indicate the devil. Let me quote that verse:

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Take you above verse as an example.

What do these symbols represent?

Great Dragon
Devil
Satan

What is the manifestation of these symbols which deceives the whole world?

For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. 1 John 2:16

The issue for the wayward Christian is they dont have the tools to discern what the symbols represent on earth....they have conjured up notions of fallens angels and a disordly Heaven!

All this will be revealed upon the Lord's coming.

F2F
 

Raccoon1010

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I did a more in depth study of Lucifer and received direction from the Lord. I was directed to know that many of the present day ideas about Lucifer are lies created by man. Following Isaiah to Daniel, with the King of Babylon and Lucifer who rotted in the ground with maggots and worms it was clear after hearing the message from the Lord that it was a man in the old testament that Isaiah prophesied about and died and was sent to hell. It was not a resurrected angel and was not a spirit angel. He had a body that rotted.
 

Aunty Jane

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As @Aunty Jane said, it is not in the Bible.

From other sources it is known that Lucifer was a beautiful and high ranking Angel. Like Star Wars, with Anakin Skywalker being renamed Darth Vader, Lucifer was renamed Satan when he fell.
Truth be known, the angel who came to be known by his traits “satan the devil” (descriptions of his personality as a slanderer and resistor) rather than his true given name, will never have his real name revealed because it means he can never receive worship for himself…..only for his evil activities, either by those who wish to emulate him, or those who are naive enough to be deceived by him.

Lucifer was a man…..not an angel. Satan is never called Lucifer in the Bible….this name means “light bearer” or “bringer of the dawn”….it’s not another name for satan.
 
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Pyreaux

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I did a more in depth study of Lucifer and received direction from the Lord. I was directed to know that many of the present day ideas about Lucifer are lies created by man. Following Isaiah to Daniel, with the King of Babylon and Lucifer who rotted in the ground with maggots and worms it was clear after hearing the message from the Lord that it was a man in the old testament that Isaiah prophesied about and died and was sent to hell. It was not a resurrected angel and was not a spirit angel. He had a body that rotted.
Indeed, God may have answered you with what you were ready for today. Have you ever heard of the Dual-Prophecies of Isaiah? The best example is the Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7 is clearly not about Jesus, but the birth of his own son. That doesn't mean it's not also a prophesy of Jesus.
 

Raccoon1010

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Conclusion of my research:

The term originally used in the scrolls found that were Isaiah is "O day-star, son of the morning!". I did my research and saw the comments and concluded that no name such as "Lucifer" was ever used in the bible. Have a look at the original Isaiah text from the dead sea scrolls that were found. They are not a product of whoever made the current bible and are free of any problems that might have happened along the way. Digital Dead Sea Scrolls
 

face2face

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Conclusion of my research:

The term originally used in the scrolls found that were Isaiah is "O day-star, son of the morning!". I did my research and saw the comments and concluded that no name such as "Lucifer" was ever used in the bible. Have a look at the original Isaiah text from the dead sea scrolls that were found. They are not a product of whoever made the current bible and are free of any problems that might have happened along the way. Digital Dead Sea Scrolls
Many Christians will not like this post or your findings!

Scholars today are convinced the section relates to the King of Babylon alone and none other.

With the advent of critical thinking and textual analysis its clear many of the forced fallen angel dogma's are now discredited from the OT. In fact I don't believe there is a single OT passage which speaks to an angelic arch enemny of Gods Sovereignty.

F2F
 

Pierac

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Its relative. Revolting angels unaware they a part of God's plans is no less a revolting angel like any revolting human is. The Serpent and Adam are both punished having disobeyed God's commands and seemingly his will, while we see they both in reality fulfilled God's plan, not thwarted it. The lamb had been already slain from the beginning of the world, therefore the Fall was planned. Angels can and do revolt, they have free will, even if it's ultimately an illusion. If devils aren't absolved of their guilt, they must be responsible for their actions in some way. If you remain clueless... read it again, extreme one.
No less than with Men!!! Ie.... NO FREE WILL!!!


NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

CEV Joh 6:65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


I want you to see this...

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.


Even Jesus spoke of such things....

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Now.. you know... Why Jesus told Peter... His knowledge is not learned... but Given!

YET... You have no idea... of the Love of God... as you only see these verses as negative! Not as your salvation... no matter whom you are in God's plan!
 
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Pierac

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Its relative. Revolting angels unaware they a part of God's plans is no less a revolting angel like any revolting human is. The Serpent and Adam are both punished having disobeyed God's commands and seemingly his will, while we see they both in reality fulfilled God's plan, not thwarted it. The lamb had been already slain from the beginning of the world, therefore the Fall was planned. Angels can and do revolt, they have free will, even if it's ultimately an illusion. If devils aren't absolved of their guilt, they must be responsible for their actions in some way. If you remain clueless... read it again, extreme one.
What's the difference?

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

So it's all done By Lot!!!

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

IS THIS ALL NEW TO YOU?

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

NASB Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Now Grab Your Spritual Ankles...Pyreaux

NASB Act 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."


1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.


And you always thought it was you... whom chose your own path.... you speak as a child!!!!
Paul
 
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