Can the source of all evil... please stand up?!

[APAK]

I think you may be overthinking it or at least trying to find an extra-biblical explanation for it. If you accept the Biblical narrative, it explains where evil comes from. Just as dark is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence not of good but of God. God is the ultimate anti-entropic force. Apart from Him, there is no good. As Romans 3:10 says, "There is no one righteous, not even one." It's our individual wills apart from God that produce evil. At its core, evil is a choice. And not everything bad that happens is necessarily evil, but the result of living in a fallen, disordered universe. As to why God is allowing it for a finite time is another discussion.

Thank you for your post. It is a solid perspective. I will reread it again, to see if any new gems shake out of it...

 

[ScottA]

Your post sounds very esoteric and highly philosophical Scott. So let me attempt to pull out the subject of evil here. Since God caused mankind to multiply over time, of himself, as sons, the process of spiritual essence division of himself, cause the inevitable effect called evil or dark residue. Like creating the day that also cause the darkness in the process.

So today we have more and more evil until Christ actually mends this imperfect process of division in creation by God from his realm. Christ crossed or will cross and heal these two realms....in the future permanently

So evil, wickedness and a satan, a devil, is a byproduct of this imperfect creation we must still live with...?and it affected to fractured human spiritual condition.

Sounds like God wanted to see what would happen to his own creations in this entire cycle, from generation to completion, for the old physical Genesis to the end of the 2nd spiritual Genesis through Christ.

So, then the catch, then evil is not caused by being created, and/or man, and then it is, we just feel the effects of it in our lives, and spread it like a virus, and God pointed to the way to escape what he first created, by design.......now I'm lost in space, where did everyone go.....

​

Hahah... It is a good attempt!

Yet it still holds too much reference to Time--meaning, it is not the full measure of God's own timeless/eternal truth. So, if that way seems to narrow--yes, it is perhaps esoteric. But that just means we have not yet imagined all that is actually, factually true across the gulf-- But we should, because we are to follow, and why should we be caught unaware, thinking things are as we are accustom from living in this foreign land?

Is it not okay for us to begin to live and think as a king? On the contrary--we should! And so, it would be and is a shame to tell of it, and to see so many rolling their eyes. Sad really.

Rise, let us be going!

 

[3 Resurrections]

I understand it simply that evil is anything contrary to God's will. God's will is manifest in the designs of his original creations.

At first the rebellion in heaven was evil. This lead to the tempting of Eve in the garden. Then the fall, and evil has been multiplying since then..

Absolutely yes.

What and where is the source?
Free will.

Also true. Free will is too dangerous for mankind to be entrusted with this potent power. The reason why God gave this gift to the original couple was to prove to us that no created being can ever be trusted not to eventually abuse that free will choice to perform a rebellious act against the will of our Creator. The first couple failed this free will test, thereby causing death and separation from God for all Adam's progeny. The angels were also given this free will test - and a third of them failed it (Revelation 12:4), with the "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21) being preserved in their righteous standing before God.

God is the only one who can be entrusted with having this power of a free will choice between good and evil. He will never, ever choose to commit the evil. "I am the Lord: I change not...", God once said of Himself in Malachi 3:6. Christ the Son of God also said of Himself, "I do always those things that please Him" (John 8:29).

Free will is not a desirable thing for any created being. For anything created originally righteous by God, free will carries the inherent threat of an eventual, inevitable choice to commit evil, which results in death and separation from God. In our final eternal state, I believe the resurrected saints will be delivered from this risky status, and subsumed completely into the will of the Father, "that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28). In the eternal state in heaven, there will never again be the risk of the children of God choosing to commit evil in rebellion against their Creator. This will be a superior, secured status when compared to even the innocence in the Garden of Eden, since that was a probationary period before their free will choice caused the Fall.

 

[Eric]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says, " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." If God is truely a totally soveriegn God, and He designed and created ALL created things, then the question really isn't the "Origin" or "source" of evil, but "why did God create evil"? But just focusing a couple thoughts on the origins of evil and why, I don't think there is any scripture in the Bible, or the credible apocrapha that gives a clear explanation of why God created evil, or why God put Satan in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve, or why God prompted and directed Satan to do evil things to Job, because clearly, those were choices of God.
However, given that it is pretty widely accepted (and I'm not going to look up scriptures right now) that God created this world, as He chose and intended, and is preparing a people to populate the coming Kingdom of Heaven, where there will be no sin and no evil, it seems to stand to (my human) reasoning, that somehow, this process that God has all His chosen people going through in this environment, (with all it's evil and suffering and injustices, etc etc,) has something to do with refinement of His willful followers. And, as such, without an explanation, requires us to chose to put our faith in the goodness, righteousness, and faithfulness of our almighty God, and simply surrender to willfully go through whatever processes God chooses to put us through (or allows the Evil One to put us through). And, to be a "light in the darkness" as we do so. At least, that is where I'm at in the dealing with this issue.

 

[APAK]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says, " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." If God is truely a totally soveriegn God, and He designed and created ALL created things, then the question really isn't the "Origin" or "source" of evil, but "why did God create evil"? But just focusing a couple thoughts on the origins of evil and why, I don't think there is any scripture in the Bible, or the credible apocrapha that gives a clear explanation of why God created evil, or why God put Satan in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve, or why God prompted and directed Satan to do evil things to Job, because clearly, those were choices of God.
However, given that it is pretty widely accepted (and I'm not going to look up scriptures right now) that God created this world, as He chose and intended, and is preparing a people to populate the coming Kingdom of Heaven, where there will be no sin and no evil, it seems to stand to (my human) reasoning, that somehow, this process that God has all His chosen people going through in this environment, (with all it's evil and suffering and injustices, etc etc,) has something to do with refinement of His willful followers. And, as such, without an explanation, requires us to chose to put our faith in the goodness, righteousness, and faithfulness of our almighty God, and simply surrender to willfully go through whatever processes God chooses to put us through (or allows the Evil One to put us through). And, to be a "light in the darkness" as we do so. At least, that is where I'm at in the dealing with this issue.

Welcome aboard the moving CB train express of many ideas.

Yes I agree with what you said in the light of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom(s) of men. We are to place our faith in the qualities of God over those that cause or use evil for selfish purposes.

Tell me, is the source of evil corrupt spirit(s) that/who wander about this earth caused by God own creative works from the beginning? And if true are these then symbolized or personified in scripture as : as a/the satan, a/the devil, the old serpent, the dragon etc. who/that prey and influence/exploit the weaknesses of/in man?

 

[APAK]

Absolutely yes.


Also true. Free will is too dangerous for mankind to be entrusted with this potent power. The reason why God gave this gift to the original couple was to prove to us that no created being can ever be trusted not to eventually abuse that free will choice to perform a rebellious act against the will of our Creator. The first couple failed this free will test, thereby causing death and separation from God for all Adam's progeny. The angels were also given this free will test - and a third of them failed it (Revelation 12:4), with the "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21) being preserved in their righteous standing before God.

God is the only one who can be entrusted with having this power of a free will choice between good and evil. He will never, ever choose to commit the evil. "I am the Lord: I change not...", God once said of Himself in Malachi 3:6. Christ the Son of God also said of Himself, "I do always those things that please Him" (John 8:29).

Free will is not a desirable thing for any created being. For anything created originally righteous by God, free will carries the inherent threat of an eventual, inevitable choice to commit evil, which results in death and separation from God. In our final eternal state, I believe the resurrected saints will be delivered from this risky status, and subsumed completely into the will of the Father, "that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28). In the eternal state in heaven, there will never again be the risk of the children of God choosing to commit evil in rebellion against their Creator. This will be a superior, secured status when compared to even the innocence in the Garden of Eden, since that was a probationary period before their free will choice caused the Fall.

Having independent human will to decide, away from the presence of God is a bad thing indeed. The 2nd Adam was given the Spirit of God and assisted by numerous angels.

 

[lforrest]

Another point to ponder:

God created the heavens and earth how? By speaking the word.

In light of this what is a lie? Isn't it an attempt to reshape reality? But lies only work on people, not the world around us. Our minds are affected, and it changes our behavior, making it sinful.

The father of lies was the first to believe a lie, that he could elevate himself to be like God. He also spread this lie.

And so evil is a lie or the results of it.

 

[APAK]

Another point to ponder:

God created the heavens and earth how? By speaking the word.

In light of this what is a lie? Isn't it an attempt to reshape reality? But lies only work on people, not the world around us. Our minds are affected, and it changes our behavior, making it sinful.

The father of lies was the first to believe a lie, that he could elevate himself to be like God. He also spread this lie.

And so evil is a lie or the results of it.

Love the idea and it is very plausible Forest..

The ability to reshape reality, with an independent will, not of/with the will of the Creator resident, that leads to a lie(s), then in turn, generates an amount of evil (spirit), and this type(s) of energy then permeates into the world. And as the population of human beings increase, each with independent wills (not in God's will), the more wills are present to recreate or reshape reality, then more varieties of lies and the more evil, and these different types build in this world over time. (one of which John spoke of, the lie that Jesus never was physically a human being on earth at one point (spirit of opposition to Christ). This is just one type of spirit of evil generated)

So eventhough it sounds simplistic, this process initiated by Forest, yourself, and then outlined further here, can be a complicated although it's logical and a biblically-backed process to capture on paper (and it excites me to provide equations for this entire process) and its progression.

We can see why with each new generation born, more types of evil of different spirits are generated, and therefore more volume, (like sucking the air out of the atmosphere) and therefore it is a compounding action, of increasing intensity into this world. It becomes a self-sustaining and increasing collection of spirits of evil as one cumulative storm of evil spirits, formed from many small ones.

So the trigger for evil was the creation of an evil being in heaven first, and then it enticed the 1st Adam/and his wife who was/were allowed by design, to live with an independent will, away from God, independent of his own Spirit. And to boot, he had a wife of the same type of vessel, and both enjoyed the pleasures that the 5 senses brought him and her, to imagine and reshape reality..to lie(s)..to evil.

Then the 2nd Adam, although with the same human and independent will, also possessed the will of his Father resident within him. And he chose to leave his own will 'behind' and do his Father's will.....to arrest evil eventually and permanently, and destroy it, along with its cause, sin that produces 'death'...

Later...generating a set of equations on this tide of evil in the world ....soon...

 

[APAK]

So, now, are the labels or symbols of evil in scripture, do they represent types/and levels of evil that were generated over time, each type representing a different evil spirit or spirits that impacts people differently from within, of the mind and outside of the senses? Like does a/the satan influence a person differently that a devil inside a person? Or is the devil and the satanic spirit the same thing in the mind of a 'weak' person?

Doe the old Serpent represent the original or one of the original evils spirits?

Does the dragon/serpent represent the most powerful evil spirit or the cumulation of all evil spirits combined - including the serpent, the devil and the satan?

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think there is more to it that angels here Ronald. Look at some of the posts, and you can see there's much more to it..thanx for you response though.

And then where and when did these particular angels first create evil? or found it to use for themselves as it was already present?.....did they also have 'some' limited unhindered freedom to choose good over evil as man does today?

This topic and its underlining currents is not spoke of a great deal, and really needs to be discussed more.

Well evil is a concept that is acted out by entities. It is found in the "heart". but Satan and angels and demons are not symbols but actual entities. the bible makes that clear.

 

[GTW27]

Blessings in Christ Jesus! "Do not fear about what you are about suffer. Behold the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death and I will you the crown of life"

On September 6th 2002 I went through this for ten days to finish a training that would not be believed and yet it is true. Satan entered my friend (room mate) along with several of his friends. I was young in the faith, and did not know how to deal with this, but I held onto The Lord with all that I had. It was a horrible time. Things were done to me that can not even be uttered. I learned a lot about the devil in these 10 days as I played dumb after realizing that he could not read my mind. What I am allowed to say on these forums is he imitates The Lord(Jesus) very well as he used to be in His Presence at times. Even his friends can sound like a prophet when they seek to deceive. It is wise to be well verse in the scriptures as they will be used against you. After these ten days were over, I had to get serious in my calling. Back then, I was afraid at what I had to face, but today there is less of me and more of The Lord here, so the enemy is dealt with as The Lord sees fit. Sometimes it makes me laugh a bit.
So APAK, he is real as well as his demons, but they have no power over those who are truly born from above.

 

[lforrest]

Love the idea and it is very plausible Forest..

The ability to reshape reality, with an independent will, not of/with the will of the Creator resident, that leads to a lie(s), then in turn, generates an amount of evil (spirit), and this type(s) of energy then permeates into the world. And as the population of human beings increase, each with independent wills (not in God's will), the more wills are present to recreate or reshape reality, then more varieties of lies and the more evil, and these different types build in this world over time. (one of which John spoke of, the lie that Jesus never was physically a human being on earth at one point (spirit of opposition to Christ). This is just one type of spirit of evil generated)

So eventhough it sounds simplistic, this process initiated by Forest, yourself, and then outlined further here, can be a complicated although it's logical and a biblically-backed process to capture on paper (and it excites me to provide equations for this entire process) and its progression.

We can see why with each new generation born, more types of evil of different spirits are generated, and therefore more volume, (like sucking the air out of the atmosphere) and therefore it is a compounding action, of increasing intensity into this world. It becomes a self-sustaining and increasing collection of spirits of evil as one cumulative storm of evil spirits, formed from many small ones.

So the trigger for evil was the creation of an evil being in heaven first, and then it enticed the 1st Adam/and his wife who was/were allowed by design, to live with an independent will, away from God, independent of his own Spirit. And to boot, he had a wife of the same type of vessel, and both enjoyed the pleasures that the 5 senses brought him and her, to imagine and reshape reality..to lie(s)..to evil.

Then the 2nd Adam, although with the same human and independent will, also possessed the will of his Father resident within him. And he chose to leave his own will 'behind' and do his Father's will.....to arrest evil eventually and permanently, and destroy it, along with its cause, sin that produces 'death'...

Later...generating a set of equations on this tide of evil in the world ....soon...

I wouldn't say a lie creates a new reality regardless how many believe it. It is written, let God be true and every man a liar. These may be called vain imaginations. But they really do affect our minds for the worse.

The way the lie of Satan had real world impacts was by tricking Adam and Eve to surrender their God given authority over the earth.

 

[ProDeo]

What and where is the source?
Free will.

Why did or does it exist?
Because God wanted his creation to be intelligent and obedient.

I think you said it best.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

A bit of Plato -

The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

By analogy, if good (God) exist its opposite (evil) must exists also.

And God knew on beforehand that sooner or later evil would rear its ugly head confirmed by the fall of Satan from grace even wanting to overthrow God Himself, the first sin (so to say) in the history of the heaven by the lack of a better description.

What is the source?
Indeed free will.

God knew everything on beforehand, His solution -- The Lamb slain -- God's way to deal with sin.

 

[APAK]

I think you said it best.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

A bit of Plato -

The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

By analogy, if good (God) exist its opposite (evil) must exists also.

And God knew on beforehand that sooner or later evil would rear its ugly head confirmed by the fall of Satan from grace even wanting to overthrow God Himself, the first sin (so to say) in the history of the heaven by the lack of a better description.

What is the source?
Indeed free will.

God knew everything on beforehand, His solution -- The Lamb slain -- God's way to deal with sin.

PD the source is not the so-called free-will. This type of will was the enabler for evil. The source of evil was from God who created a being(s) to have independent 'free' wills. There's a difference.

 

[ProDeo]

PD the source is not the so-called free-will. This type of will was the enabler for evil. The source of evil was from God who created a being(s) to have independent 'free' wills. There's a difference.

Yes, and it seems (the Lamb slain) God was willing to pay the price for that.

Can you feel the love?