Limited atonement !

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ's atonement has two parts. First, He defeated death for all men, this is objective, man has no part to play in this aspect. (Saved them from death.
Secondly, He performed a sacrifice for sin. This sacrifice is not objective. When man believes and repents, confesses his sin, Christ is able to forgive those sins. Man can remain in Christ as long as he remains faithful to Christ. This is called being saved.

Atonement means reconciliation. Christ made man right with God by defeating death and making a sacrifice for sin.

Sorry but atonement does not mean reconciliation.

Atonement in the NT is katallage which means an exchange- Jesus gives us his righteousness and He took our sins. It is an erasure of the debt.

In the OT atonement meant a covering.

 

[Rightglory]

Sorry but atonement does not mean reconciliation.

Your definition below means the same thing.

Atonement in the NT is katallage which means an exchange- Jesus gives us his righteousness and He took our sins. It is an erasure of the debt.

Exchanged His death for our death, and His sacrifice for our sin. That is a reconcilition, to make right, or redeem, or to make righteous.

In the OT atonement meant a covering.

it did the same thing only animal sacrifices were used to make man right with God again.

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman



This is so blatantly false, Im not going to take time to deal with it

The elect being led astray by false Christs is a Biblically viable teaching, Mark 13:21-22, 2 Thess. 2:9-12, 1 John 2:18-19, etc.

I think it's not good to brush it aside with a simple "this is false" as if it doesn't deserve the attention it requires. It's obviously not false. It may be false in Reformed theology, but in Christian theology it is nevertheless true.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ Really Die for the False, Harlot Church?

Since the Lord’s sacrifice is motivated by His love for those for whom He died (John 15:13; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 5:25), if He laid down His life for absolutely everybody, then he also loved and died for the false church, the whore, and the multitudes who fornicate with her in her corrupt worship (Rev. 17:1-2, 15)! But Ephesians 5:25 teaches that the Son of God “loved the church, and gave himself for it.” No mention is made here of a love of Christ or a death of Christ for that which is not the true, elect church which is sanctified by God’s cleansing Word (26) and presented spotless at the last day (27).

If the Lord Jesus loved and died for everyone head for head (which necessarily includes the false church), then He must have “loved the church [and the false church], and gave himself for [both of them].” Then husbands would be commanded, “love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church [and the false church]” (25). Thus husbands would have to love their wives even as Christ loves His bride and a harlot, the false church.

But Scripture teaches that our Saviour has one bride, the church of all ages (Rev. 21:2). He loved her and gave Himself for her alone. This—and not the theory that the Redeemer loved and died for everybody—is the truth of the cross and the biblical model for Christian husbands who are not to love and give themselves for harlots. Rev. Angus Stewart 3

 

[brightfame52]

@Ronald Nolette

Sorry but they are all truth.

Sorry, it was truth mixed with error, which is very subtle and deadly.

 

[brightfame52]

The elect being led astray by false Christs is a Biblically viable teaching, Mark 13:21-22, 2 Thess. 2:9-12, 1 John 2:18-19, etc.

I think it's not good to brush it aside with a simple "this is false" as if it doesn't deserve the attention it requires. It's obviously not false. It may be false in Reformed theology, but in Christian theology it is nevertheless true.

My comment remains.

 

[Rightglory]

Did Christ Really Die for the False, Harlot Church?

Since the Lord’s sacrifice is motivated by His love for those for whom He died (John 15:13; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 5:25), if He laid down His life for absolutely everybody, then he also loved and died for the false church, the whore, and the multitudes who fornicate with her in her corrupt worship (Rev. 17:1-2, 15)! But Ephesians 5:25 teaches that the Son of God “loved the church, and gave himself for it.” No mention is made here of a love of Christ or a death of Christ for that which is not the true, elect church which is sanctified by God’s cleansing Word (26) and presented spotless at the last day (27).

If the Lord Jesus loved and died for everyone head for head (which necessarily includes the false church), then He must have “loved the church [and the false church], and gave himself for [both of them].” Then husbands would be commanded, “love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church [and the false church]” (25). Thus husbands would have to love their wives even as Christ loves His bride and a harlot, the false church.

But Scripture teaches that our Saviour has one bride, the church of all ages (Rev. 21:2). He loved her and gave Himself for her alone. This—and not the theory that the Redeemer loved and died for everybody—is the truth of the cross and the biblical model for Christian husbands who are not to love and give themselves for harlots. Rev. Angus Stewart 3

This is such a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Clearly this person does not understand Christ's Incarnation and His universal redemption of the world. John 3:16-17, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20.
The fact is, Christ died for the world and everyone in it. He became Man, took on our human nature. Thus it is impossible to exclude any human being.
Christ died so that He could call all men to repentance to build His Church. He would not be able to even have a Church unless He first overcame the curse of death upon all men. Heb 2:9, I Cor 15:22. Heb 2:14-16.

 

[David Lamb]

This is such a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Clearly this person does not understand Christ's Incarnation and His universal redemption of the world. John 3:16-17, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20.
The fact is, Christ died for the world and everyone in it. He became Man, took on our human nature. Thus it is impossible to exclude any human being.
Christ died so that He could call all men to repentance to build His Church. He would not be able to even have a Church unless He first overcame the curse of death upon all men. Heb 2:9, I Cor 15:22. Heb 2:14-16.

Yet Jesus said:

“"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” (Joh 10:11 NKJV)

A few verses later He said to some Jews:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

If He died for the sheep, and those Jews were not of His sheep, He cannot have died for them

 

[Rightglory]

Yet Jesus said:

“"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” (Joh 10:11 NKJV)

The word THE does not mean MY sheep. Vs 15 says the same thing. Why would Jesus speak of the sheep when includes all (sheep), but then those that are His He uses my sheep. Vs 16 also the same thing. He needed to die for the sheep (all human beings) so that He could call all (sheep) men to repentance to create HIS Church.

A few verses later He said to some Jews:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Yes, because they did not believe. THE ONLY WAY TO BECOME HIS SHEEP IS TO BELIEVE. His death did not unilaterally make believers.

If He died for the sheep, and those Jews were not of His sheep, He cannot have died for them

But they were sheep. John 10: 16 tells you that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette



Sorry, it was truth mixed with error, which is very subtle and deadly.

Well then show the error and show the truth if you think this error. Either you must be willing to show truth or you are just simply looking to accuse people.

 

[brightfame52]

This is such a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Clearly this person does not understand Christ's Incarnation and His universal redemption of the world. John 3:16-17, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20.
The fact is, Christ died for the world and everyone in it. He became Man, took on our human nature. Thus it is impossible to exclude any human being.
Christ died so that He could call all men to repentance to build His Church. He would not be able to even have a Church unless He first overcame the curse of death upon all men. Heb 2:9, I Cor 15:22. Heb 2:14-16.

Did Christ Really Die for the False, Harlot Church. This is her plight Rev 19:20

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[brightfame52]

Well then show the error and show the truth if you think this error. Either you must be willing to show truth or you are just simply looking to accuse people.

You should already know, you posted it, not me

 

[David Lamb]

The word THE does not mean MY sheep. Vs 15 says the same thing. Why would Jesus speak of the sheep when includes all (sheep), but then those that are His He uses my sheep. Vs 16 also the same thing. He needed to die for the sheep (all human beings) so that He could call all (sheep) men to repentance to create HIS Church.

Yes, because they did not believe. THE ONLY WAY TO BECOME HIS SHEEP IS TO BELIEVE. His death did not unilaterally make believers.

But if He had meant that they could become His sheep by believing, He would have said: "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." But He didn't say that. He told them that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep.

But they were sheep. John 10: 16 tells you that.

No it doesn't:

“"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.” (Joh 10:16 NKJV)

That verse isn't saying that the people to whom He is about to say, "You are not of my sheep" (v 26) are in fact His sheep. Rather, He is saying that His sheep will not only be from among the Jews, but Gentiles too.

 

[brightfame52]

With articles from AS I will show how certain passages of scripture teach limited atonement

John 10 Teaches Particular Redemption

In John 10, Jesus teaches that He, the good shepherd, died for His sheep: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” (11); “I lay down my life for the sheep” (15). Just as every earthly shepherd has his “own sheep” (3, 4), Christ refers to His “fold” or flock (16) as “my sheep” (14, 26, 27). Later, the Lord told some people that they were not His sheep and that this was the reason why they did not believe: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep” (26).

The argument is simple: Jesus died for His sheep (11, 15), knowing exactly who they are (14, 26, 27); He told certain people that they were not His sheep (26); therefore, He did not die for them. The Lord also said that His sheep were given to Him by His Father (29). The Father gave the sheep to the Son in His eternal purpose of election so that in time He would die for them and gather them out of all nations (16). Since Christ died for His sheep (and some are not His sheep), and His sheep are the elect, Christ died for the elect alone. 3

 

[Rightglory]

Did Christ Really Die for the False, Harlot Church. This is her plight Rev 19:20

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

He died for every human being, so that all of mankind would be free to choose whether to serve Him or become a member of a false church.
Just as He died for everyone who will be judged to hell. It was their choice to reject Him.

 

[Rightglory]

But if He had meant that they could become His sheep by believing, He would have said: "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." But He didn't say that. He told them that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep.

No it doesn't:

“"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.” (Joh 10:16 NKJV)

That verse isn't saying that the people to whom He is about to say, "You are not of my sheep" (v 26) are in fact His sheep. Rather, He is saying that His sheep will not only be from among the Jews, but Gentiles too.

Nothing above precludes the fact that Christ died for mankind. He saved mankind from the curse of death. His purpose- to be able to call all men to repentance, to become HIS sheep. Until one believes, one is not one of His sheep.

The issue here is that Brightfame52 believes that Christ ONLY died for the very same ones that were predestined to believe. Which is contrary to Scripture. Both the concept of predestination of believers or Limited Atonement is non-scriptural.

 

[Rightglory]

With articles from AS I will show how certain passages of scripture teach limited atonement

John 10 Teaches Particular Redemption

In John 10, Jesus teaches that He, the good shepherd, died for His sheep: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” (11); “I lay down my life for the sheep” (15). Just as every earthly shepherd has his “own sheep” (3, 4), Christ refers to His “fold” or flock (16) as “my sheep” (14, 26, 27). Later, the Lord told some people that they were not His sheep and that this was the reason why they did not believe: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep” (26).

The argument is simple: Jesus died for His sheep (11, 15), knowing exactly who they are (14, 26, 27); He told certain people that they were not His sheep (26); therefore, He did not die for them. The Lord also said that His sheep were given to Him by His Father (29). The Father gave the sheep to the Son in His eternal purpose of election so that in time He would die for them and gather them out of all nations (16). Since Christ died for His sheep (and some are not His sheep), and His sheep are the elect, Christ died for the elect alone. 3

Your premise is false, non scriptural, thus your arguments are false. Very simply, Christ died for THE SHEEP, actually the world, so He could have His sheep. Now, those that do believe have become HIS sheep. They believe and will follow Him. Those who are not His sheep obviously will not follow Him.
No place does scripture ever speak of a limited salvation from death, or limited redemption or particular redemption. It is catagorically in opposition to what scripture teaches. Christ became man, assumed our human nature for the purpose to defeat death, so that all men will have the opportunity to believe. Whether they do or not is not up to God, but man. That is why man will be judged. God is not going to judge Christ because He only died for some. The Incarnation makes it impossible to have a limited atonement.
Unless you don't believe in the Incarnation, or the Biblical Christ and have developed a new theory from scripture, then you could develop a view of a limited atonement.

 

[David Lamb]

Nothing above precludes the fact that Christ died for mankind. He saved mankind from the curse of death. His purpose- to be able to call all men to repentance, to become HIS sheep. Until one believes, one is not one of His sheep.

The issue here is that Brightfame52 believes that Christ ONLY died for the very same ones that were predestined to believe. Which is contrary to Scripture. Both the concept of predestination of believers or Limited Atonement is non-scriptural.

Not according to the bible. He died for the sheep. He had the name Jesus because He would save His people, not just make salvation a possibility for everybody:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

As for becoming a sheep by believing, that is not what He said. He said to some Jews:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Not, "But you are not of My sheep, because you do not believe. as I said to you.”

If Christ died for people ending up in hell, then you have God punishing sin twice - once in His Son on the cross, and again in the sinner in hell. As Augustus Toplady wrote in one of his hymns:

Complete atonement thou hast made
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

If thou hast my discharge procured
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand
And then again at mine.

 

[Rightglory]

Not according to the bible. He died for the sheep. He had the name Jesus because He would save His people, not just make salvation a possibility for everybody:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

As for becoming a sheep by believing, that is not what He said. He said to some Jews:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Not, "But you are not of My sheep, because you do not believe. as I said to you.”

If Christ died for people ending up in hell, then you have God punishing sin twice - once in His Son on the cross, and again in the sinner in hell. As Augustus Toplady wrote in one of his hymns:

Complete atonement thou hast made
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

If thou hast my discharge procured
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand
And then again at mine.

You seem to be in the same boat as Brightfame52. He denies most of scripture to support his personal theology that Christ redeemed ONLY some people, which he also believers were predestinated as believers or to be believers. In this context it is natural to accept the idea that Jesus died ONLY for His Sheep.

However, there is nothing in scripture that supports this concept. Here is a quote from your post above:

"Not according to the bible. He died for the sheep. He had the name Jesus because He would save His people, not just make salvation a possibility for everybody:"

He did die for the sheep. The sheep in the analogy is the human race. He died for all men, otherwise it would have been impossible to have any sheep that could be called His Sheep. Yes, Christ died for every human being. Not a single human being will be lost to the condemnation of death, the curse all humans bear because of Adam. Your interpretation actually leaves all human beings still under the condemnation of death, thus there can be no heaven or hell, nor a new Earth and a new Heaven.

For your benefit I will cite the texts which denies Brightfame52 whole theology, which I already gave to him numerous times. which also denies your understanding above.
Heb 2:9 Christ died for all.
Heb 2:14-15 explains why Christ needed to assume our human natures ....that through death He might destroy him who had the power over death and sin.
Why did He need to die for all men?
Rom 5:12 explains that. Because all men suffered the condemnation of death through Adam. That death was pronounced in Gen 3:19.
Rom 5:18 makes it very clear as well. Through ONE man's offense judgement (death) came to all men,.....even so through ONE MAN'S righteous act a free gift came to all men, resulting in life.
I Cor 15:12-22 summarizes Christ's Incarnation as well. Read it very carefully. the summation is in vs 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
I Cor 15: 53-54 it clearly states again the resurrection was for all men. All the dead shall be raised immortal and incorruptible.
There are actually many more that support universal redemption.

Even the sacrifice for sin was for all people as well, I John 2:2

It cannot be more clear what scripture teaches regarding the Incarnation and Christ redemptive work.
What you will not find is anything supporting either predestination of believers or a limited atonement.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You should already know, you posted it, not me

Well I posted no error. It is you that said it was error. so now show why.

saying something wrong is easy. showing it from SCripture is what is needed.