Christ intended not by his death to save all men from their sins, but thus to save the Elect only. John 10:15; Eph.5:25-27; Heb.2:14; Gen.3:15; Tit.2:14
Limited atonement !
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Where does it say in scripture that one who is baptised will remain faithful?
How come Adam did not remain faithful. He walked and talked with God in the Garden.
Here are some texts that deny your statement regarding permanence.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside after Satan
Rev.14:12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
These are just a few,. Most of the NT speaks about believers remaining faithful, and the consequences of not being faithful.
I don't see any guarantees that once we believe our salvation is guaranteed. I Pet 1:3-5 shows what we need to do to inherit eternal life.
God has been present in this world from the beginning. God's providence, energy, grace and love is ever present in that He is calling all men to repentance, II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4, Rom 1:18-24. This is why no man will have an excuse that they did not know God.
Just a note: Saying it is biblical means little. Every false teaching that has existed in history was based on the Bible. If it is not from the Bible it cannot be unbiblical, its just a religious view or a philosophical point of view.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Those who depart from the faith, were never Born Again by the Spirit Of God.
We cannot be un- birthed from the Living Spirit....when our spirit is Born Again.
We are Born Again of imperishable seed..which means what?
Whoever the Father gives to the Son he will never lose one.
Why..because as Gods word says, we were chosen and predestined to become Born Again.
Spirit gives birth to spirit....the Born Again are the elect of God...chosen according to his purpose and plan...
Romans 8
King James Version
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I'm convinced you do not read scripture as scripture but within the blinders of your theology.
John 10:15 explicitedly denies what you state above.
Note vs 14, Jesus uses the pronoun, MY twice. BUT in verse 15 when it comes to His death, He says THE sheep. Then vs 17 he states very clearly that there are other sheep NOT OF MY FOLD, THEM ALSO I must BRING.
Eph 5:25-27 - The purpose of dying for all men and all men being raised is so that Christ could call all men to repentance to build His Church, Yes to save those that see and believe, John 3:16. None of this could happen UNLESS HE SAVED ALL MEN FROM DEATH FIRST.
Heb 2:14, explicitly denies your theory again. It states without equivocation that Christ took on flesh and blood, our human nature for the express purpose of defeating death. There is no limitation here. He either took on our human nature or He did not. If He did, and He arose with that same human nature, then all men will be raised from death. Very logical and very rational. I Cor 15:22.
Gen 3:15 Most theologicans ascribe this verse as being the promise of a coming Savior to correct the condemnation of death that is given gen 3:9
Titus 2:14 - First read Heb 2:9, then Titus makes sense because that was the whole purpose of His coming. To create a holy nation, His Church, His special people. He could not have done this UNLESS HE FIRST DEFEATED DEATH FOR THE HUMAN RACE AS WELL AS HIS CREATION.
soberxp
Active Member
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
First, that would be an illogical statement. Secondly, most of scripture would be lying Including every single verse I quoted.
You cannot fall from something if you never had it. If anyone has faith, believed in Christ, was baptised, and lost their faith, it means they lost their faith and one cannot be saved without faith.
Se above. If you cannot find other texts that shows believers can definitely lose faith, I have about 100 more texts in scripture that deny the permanence of faith in a believer.
It means the seed in imperishable, but you are not the seed, you can perish unless you remain faithful to the end.
To correctly understand this verse we must first know who or what was given to Christ.
Col 1:15-20 with vs 20 being very explicit as to what was given to Christ. All things. Then
John 16;39 It repeats Col, that all He has given me, I should lose nonething, but should raise it up at the last day.
Now the verse you need is vs 40, all that see and believe IN HIM may have everlasting life. Nothing about not losing any believers.
That's your understanding, but not what has been understood for 2000 years from the Apostles onward.
I can agree to that.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
You can’t lose supernatural faith from God.
Tell me how you know who God or Jesus is?
How can you possibly know that he exists?
Then I will explain to you how I have come to know him.
Show me where God says that a “ Born Again “ can be un- birthed?
You cannot lose God given faith...did you read my post...whoever the Father gives to the Son, he won’t lose one.
It means exactly what it says...we are Born Again of imperishable seed...what in you has been Born Again?
And, by whose Living testimony?
To correctly understand, we must be supernaturally Born Again by the Living Spirit Of God...that can only come my supernatural divine heart revelation.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I can do the same.....my spirit is 100% Born Again has been for the past 33 years and because my faith came from God....it has grown and grown beyond my wildest dreams....The Spirit testifies with our spirit all day every day that we are Born Again.....
I have many more that I can post..that a Born Again can never lose their salvation...
God tells the truth and keeps His promises.
Belief births you into God’s family.
Jesus promised you would not perish.
You are not condemned (reserved for destruction).
You currently have everlasting life.
You passed from death unto life.
Jesus will not cast you out for any reason.
Jesus knows His sheep.
Jesus gave you eternal life.
You are in Jesus’ hand and no one can get you out.
The Father placed His hand over the Son’s and no one is more powerful than Him.
The combined strength of God the Father and God the Son is protecting your soul.
Jesus promised that you would never die.
God is your Father.
You are two-fold the Child of God; by birth and by adoption.
The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit reminding us that we are saved.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
I didn’t know God at one time...how did you come to know him in your spirit?
Why do we need to be Born Again?....do you know God in your heart/ spirit?
Or do you only know God ,who you read Of in the Bible?
Not everyone has a Bible...I never had a Bible, so how could I possibly know that God existed or exists?
How would you or I know...that Jesus was who the Bible says he was?
How can the natural man, know who the Living Spirit Of God is?
What does God say about the natural man?
Ritajanice
Born-Again
soberxp
Active Member
I like here and enjoy it.
I see a lot of people who are inclusive and open-minded, and that's enough. You can't expect everyone to think at the same frequency.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I can agree with that. However, you cannot find any text where God promised anyone unilateral salvation. In every case it depends on man's choice.
John 3:18 Again the word, BELIEVEITH is in present tense active. It depends on your faithfulness.
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Again verb believeth is present tense, and active. Seeing life depends on one's faithfulness.
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” See the same reason as above.
John 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” You need to show a text that is not in present tense active ot make your theory scriptural.
John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” True, but it is not up to God whether you stay or leave. This is why scripture has all these many warnings, or heeds that we remain faithful.
John 11:25–26 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? That present tense, active verb - believeth does not agree with your understanding of these verses.
The other verses don't support your interpretation either. The Bible cannot contradict itself. If man determines where He will spend eternity based on his works through faith and we remain sinners. There is not unilateral guarantee to salvation from God. The guarantee requires each to remain faithful.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
That is what you believe...Spirit gave birth to my spirit....there is nowhere in scripture that says, you choose to become Born Of The Spirit...that is a supernatural act, that only the Living Spirit can perform.
My spirit has been Born Again of imperishable seed.
| Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. Berean Literal Bible having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God, |
All that I post, is supported by scripture..
The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.
Not if they have been birthed by the Spirit Of God, one can NEVER lose faith.
I have posted scripture that supports a Born Again can never be un- birthed by the Living Spirit Of God.
There is no point in discussing with you any further, all we are doing is arguing.....
I don’t believe as you believe, my spirit knows that it has been birthed into Christ, the moment my spirit became Born Again.
Some may have Bible knowledge, but, we must know God in our heart/ spirit...that can only come by supernatural divine heart revelation..we know God in our heart/ spirit, by His Living testimony, the Holy Spirit..only he can witness Gods truth to our heart.only he can birth our spirit and bring it Alive in Christ.....I’m afraid the Bible can’t do that...it’s a supernatural act of God...if it’s his will to do so..
Maybe you can answer these questions before I cease discussion with you, get an idea of where you are coming from.
I didn’t know God at one time...how did you come to know him in your spirit?
Why do we need to be Born Again?....do you know God in your heart/ spirit?
Or do you only know God ,who you read Of in the Bible?
Not everyone has a Bible...I never had a Bible, so how could I possibly know that God existed or exists?
How would you or I know...that Jesus was who the Bible says he was?
How can the natural man, know who the Living Spirit Of God is?
What does God say about the natural man?
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. You cannot lose your salvation once you are born again.
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I was taught and my own study - and believed.
We don't need to be born again unless we desire to know Him, to believe and accept His call to repent.
I see Him in His creation as well.
Because the Holy Spirit has worked upon all men, calling them. Rom 1:18-24 explains why men living way in the beginning could know God. Some did not believer, others like Abraham believed, or Noah.
By faith and the testament of the early Church and History.
See all the above
Natural man is one not yet joined to Christ, unenlightened or unregenerate. For such people divine things are foolishness because they use human wisdom and reasoning, rather than by faith.
The post is much to long to make specific statements on each of your statements. Since they all deal with the same content, dealing with the Holy Spirit I'll confine my remarks to that subject.
You have a view of the Holy Spirit and how one gets the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is not scriptural. By scriptural, meaning not by some modern man's interpretation. I hold to the view that if a doctrine has not been believed from the beginning, from Apostolic times a and continued to the present day it is not scriptural.
Scripture teaches that one must believe, repent and be baptised and then you will receive the Holy Spirit. I gave this to you earlier with the texts to support that view. You cannot find in scripture that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was given to an unbeliever, or one who has not believed.
As to permanence: If one cannot lose faith then Paul in I Thess 5:19 admonishing against quenching the Holy Spirit would be a false statement. If as you say, we cannot lose faith, then we surely do not need to be admonished about quenching Him.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
You cannot read the bible and "decide" to become a Christian. John 3:3-8 - says it all. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus makes a distinction between flesh and Spirit. Nobody can explain to you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You have to experience this. There is no logic to explain it.
That may be your interpretation but is not scriptural. Having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift given ONLY to believers. Peter spells out the sequence in Acts 2:38, Believe, repent, be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is the same as Johm3:5
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