LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[Scott Downey]

Romans 7 tells us in our flesh dwells nothing good, a man in his flesh cannot do anything spiritually good, all your works of the flesh are filthy rags to God and believing in Christ is a good thing to do, which a carnally minded man of the flesh cannot do.

Believing in Christ is something only a spiritually minded man can do, read Romans 8. One that Christ has set free from sin's hold. That which is born of God does not sin, and indeed it cannot sin as it has been born of God. Such is the man's spirit that is born of God. That new spirit, having a new heart He gives is one that can be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in the Son.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

NOR INDEED CAN IT BE SUBJECT to the Command of God, the carnally minded man who is not a spiritually minded man having not been born of God, cannot believe in the Son of God. The law of God tells us God commands everyone to repent and believe in His Son, read Acts 17... But for the carnal mind this is impossible to do.

The carnal mind of the unsaved is not subject to the law of GOD, it will only be a rebellious spirit, a son of disobedience and will not repent and believe in the Son. It will remain as it is, a son of the devil, having the devil as his father. God does not save devils, but God does save His family.

 

[atpollard]

Priests can STILL marry - just not in the Roman/Latin rite.

That is a strange distinction to make when I addressed my comment specifically to the NON-imutability of the RCC (that stands for Roman Catholic Church, you know ... as in the Roman/Latin Rite).

I tried to present it as neutral as possible as I am not a fan of "hating" the RCC. I merely wanted to point out that it's every current policy was not 2000 years old ... it changes over time like all human institutions (for both better and worse in my opinion).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And you, you believe in Limited Atonement, which completely CONTRADICTS Scripture?

NOBODY is automatically "saved" because of the Crucifixion. We are all REDEEEMED (paid for).
Salvation requires our cooperation with God's saving grace.

Well if you understood what limited atonement was, you would probably agree with it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is a strange distinction to make when I addressed my comment specifically to the NON-imutability of the RCC (that stands for Roman Catholic Church, you know ... as in the Roman/Latin Rite).

I tried to present it as neutral as possible as I am not a fan of "hating" the RCC. I merely wanted to point out that it's every current policy was not 2000 years old ... it changes over time like all human institutions (for both better and worse in my opinion).

Disciplines and minor traditions may change but doctrine cannot.
The Catholic Church hasn't "changed" a SINGLE doctrine in 2000 tears.

By the way - it's not the "Roman" Catholic Church.
It's just the Catholic Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well if you understood what limited atonement was, you would probably agree with it.

No - I wholeheartedly reject it.

The sins of the ENTIRE world for ALL time were atoned for on the cross.
That doesn't mean that everyone will be saved.

 

[Scott Downey]

No - I wholeheartedly reject it.

The sins of the ENTIRE world for ALL time were atoned for on the cross.
That doesn't mean that everyone will be saved.

Scripture does not agree with you.

John 8:20-24

New King James Version

​

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

Jesus Predicts His Departure​

21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[Scott Downey]

People do not go to hell with their sins forgiven them.
They go to hell because they are unforgiven of their sins.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Christ only saves His people from their sins. The rest die in their sins.

 

[Scott Downey]

Colossians 1, only the people of God who are saved have their sins forgiven them. Paul is writing to the church here.

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [c]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Stumpmaster]

People do not go to hell with their sins forgiven them.
They go to hell because they are unforgiven of their sins.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Christ only saves His people from their sins. The rest die in their sins.

God wants all people to be His People, but not all people are willing to be His People.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture does not agree with you.

John 8:20-24​

New King James Version​

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

Jesus Predicts His Departure​

21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

HOW does this passage "disagree" with what I said??

 

[BreadOfLife]

People do not go to hell with their sins forgiven them.
They go to hell because they are unforgiven of their sins.

That's why I said in post #236:
NOBODY is automatically "saved" because of the Crucifixion. We are all REDEEEMED (paid for).
Salvation requires our cooperation with God's saving grace.

EVERYBODYS sins were PAID FOR at the cross - including Hitler, Manson, Stalin and every other butcher and depraved pervert.
This DOESN'T mean that they are SAVED - unless they repented and followed Christ.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Christ only SAVES His people from their sins. The rest die in their sins.

Correct.
But EVERYBODY'S sins were ATONED for.

 

[Rightglory]

You know Christ uses the serpent raised in the wilderness by Moses as an example that all who look to the Savior, believing and loving Him, Christ, will be saved. The issue is like I keep saying is people refuse to look in faith at Christ as their Savior. And scripture is clear why that is.

The only ones who do that are those God the Father has granted to come to Christ. See your understanding ignores all the scriptures that speak to that. The reason people do not believe Christ teaches plainly in John 6, and it is because they have not been granted by God to be saved. For His own reasons, for the purposes of God and His glory, God has given them over to their sins to destruction.

I know you don't believe in the efficaciousness of of Incarnation, but it is precisely the purpose of the Incarnation and Christ reconciling the world, that He is able to grant eternal life to all men. But it is man that will decide whether it will be heaven or hell.
Your issue is that you are superimposing a whole theological theory upon scripture. You (Calvin) looked for texts that he thought would support his theory. He didn't care that a lot of scripture was ignored or he would reinterpret it to suit his theory. That is the problem with individual men who think they can do better than the Holy Spirit, in giving it and then preserving it as He promised.

 

[Scott Downey]

God wants all people to be His People, but not all people are willing to be His People.

That is the same theme of Acts 17. And Romans 1, in that God has left visible evidence of himself in the things He has made and than all men are without excuse.

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
--------------------
However, God only actually saves some people, not them all. It is not God's fault if any one is not saved, it being their sins that condemn them.
I think really this is my whole point in all my posts here, that God is saving some according to His mercy and not his judgement. God is still choosing whom He will save according to His own purpose and will, while still commanding all men everywhere to repent and believe in His Son.

And that is fair. It is God's right to do what he wants with His own stuff.

Matthew 20:14-16

New King James Version

​

14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For[a] many are called, but few chosen.”

 

[Scott Downey]

That's why I said in post #236:
NOBODY is automatically "saved" because of the Crucifixion. We are all REDEEEMED (paid for).
Salvation requires our cooperation with God's saving grace.

EVERYBODYS sins were PAID FOR at the cross - including Hitler, Manson, Stalin and every other butcher and depraved pervert.
This DOESN'T mean that they are SAVED - unless they repented and followed Christ.

Correct.
But EVERYBODY'S sins were ATONED for.

No they were not.
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

People who experience the wrath of God do not have their sins forgiven them, Do you understand that 'atonement' is appeasing the wrath of a divinity?

Romans 3 is speaking of the atonement and it applies only to Christians, only Christians have an atonement for their sins through faith in Christ, not all have faith in God.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Scott Downey]

If unbelievers have atonement (forgiveness) for their sins, then they won't be going to hell fire, they will go to heaven.
People do not go to hell with their sins forgiven them, only Christians are forgiven sins.

There is no propitiation for a person's sins unless the person actually is a believer.

Propitiation

Propitiation refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by God’s own provision of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

DEFINITION​

Propitiation means “averting the wrath of God by the offering of a gift.” It refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by God’s own provision of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

HOWEVER, John 3:36 says this about WRATH
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

LOGICALLY, unbelievers experience wrath as they have no atonement, no propitiation, if you believe something otherwise, that is not scriptural.

 

[Scott Downey]

I think a lot of those in opposition to scripture are running on nothing but strong emotions about issues.

A lot like the ancient Jews treated Christians back then, running on pure negative emotions regarding scriptural realities they refused to accept.

"Away with him, he is not fit to live" Throwing clods of dirt in the air...gnashing their teeth.

 

[atpollard]

Disciplines and minor traditions may change but doctrine cannot.
The Catholic Church hasn't "changed" a SINGLE doctrine in 2000 tears.

By the way - it's not the "Roman" Catholic Church.
It's just the Catholic Church.

So Protestants are still anathema and Catholics can still buy indulgences?

(While I try not to hate the church, I still find those members that behave deliberately boorish to be annoying and choose to dislike them as individuals on their own “lack of merit”. You tempt me to change my position on the church.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

No they were not.
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

People who experience the wrath of God do not have their sins forgiven them, Do you understand that 'atonement' is appeasing the wrath of a divinity?

Romans 3 is speaking of the atonement and it applies only to Christians, only Christians have an atonement for their sins through faith in Christ, not all have faith in God.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You are conflating Redemption with Salvation.

Redemption means that our sins were PAID FOR.
Salvation meas that were are FORGIVEN.

The sins of EVERT person were PAID FOR - but NOT everyone is FORGIVEN ynless they REPENT.

Get it now?

 

[Scott Downey]

You are conflating Redemption with Salvation.

Redemption means that our sins were PAID FOR.
Salvation meas that were are FORGIVEN.

The sins of EVERT person were PAID FOR - but NOT everyone is FORGIVEN ynless they REPENT.

Get it now?

Bye Bye, not going to respond anymore as what you are teaching is false.
The redeemed are the saved, there are no redeemed unsaved people.

Redemption scripturally and not according to a man's philosophy (yours) is only for the people of God whom He saves.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Luke 21:27-29
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”