Keys to Understanding the True Gospel
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- Jun 22, 2015
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There is no doubt Romans is the greatest of all the Gospel accounts.
How many Gospels are there quiet?
F2F
- Jun 22, 2015
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Are you asking for advice quiet?
When you ask a question of the Word you are seeking Divine advice, correct?
However, every time I've asked a question of you, all I get is this shallow criticism which is all protective mechanisms you'rve used to get by in life.
That's a fair assessment of the current state of things.
If I was to go back through all our discussions, do you think I could find unanswerd questions? Do you think I would find situations where the Word has been consulted, answers have been given and you have ignored that advice?
We can do this if you want? The forum has a good search function!
F2F
- Jun 22, 2015
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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness Ro 1:18.
Is it that you deny this characteristic of God, or is that you think it doesnt apply to you or anyone?
God is longsuffering, so this refutes the red text above, so I'm curious why do you resist speaking to the goodness and seerity of God? Are you concerned you might feed into those degenerate minds who speak of hellfire and a god of hatred?
You quoted Romans 1:16...can you quote verse 18 with meaning and understanding?
F2F
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The wrath of God is not as you imagine it to be, ie punitive. The context of the above verses explains God's wrath. It amounts to God giving them over to the choices men insist on pursuing. It is not punitive, it is consequential.
This shifts everything about God's justice as it has been traditionally interpreted. It totally exonerates God from violence (punitive)
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Short commentary.
James describes godly wisdom as "pure," translated from the Greek word hagnē. This means "undivided, chaste, or pure." This kind of wisdom is refined and focused on exactly one thing: whatever God has called us to. Godly wisdom is peaceable or peace-loving, putting a high value on easing conflict.
James describes godly wisdom as "pure," translated from the Greek word hagnē. This means "undivided, chaste, or pure." This kind of wisdom is refined and focused on exactly one thing: whatever God has called us to. Godly wisdom is peaceable or peace-loving, putting a high value on easing conflict.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
A Born Again..has been set free from the wrath of God.
It applies to the unsaved.
It in no way, applies to those who have been Born Of The Spirit.
Romans 8
King James Version
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
(Ephesians 4:17–32) 1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is youra life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 5Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.b 7When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices,10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all. 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. |
- Jun 22, 2015
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You havn't asked me how I imagine it.
Explain why God's wrath can only be consequential?
Did not Sodom receive punitive punishment from God for their disobedience and violation of His Laws?
When somone places God into a box, which in this instance you have, I'm curious how you interpret the many situations in the Bible which are clear judgements on sinful people. Today, Insurance companies call them Acts of God - Natural disasters and the like. The earth opening up and swallowing Korah, Dathan & Abiram is another punitive judgement from God.
Quiet, how can you a sinner make a judgement about God's actions and think you can exonerate Him from anything. Do you stand in judgement of God? If God acts in wrath He is justified because He is Justice.
Let me ask you a question and lets see if you can use your Bible to provide an answer.
and my anger will burn and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives will be widows and your children will be fatherless Ex 22:24.
Here is what I want you to do, if you are willing.
1. Read the context in which this law is given.
2. Find an example where God inacted this punishment with those guilty of breaking this law
3. Explain why God acted in this way and what His reasoning for what He did.
Now I might be wasting my time asking these questions as there are so many in this forum left unaswered.
Lets see.
F2F
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- Jun 22, 2015
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We probibly differ in our use of born again but you are correct.
Not only - He is a Father who disciplines His Children and He can be pushed beyond His paitence even with the Elect.
Can you think of any examples?
We know he is angry with the wicked but even then He wants none to perish (though many will).
That's correct He does not condemn those who are in Christ!
F2F
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Amen!!...he has disciplined me , to get in line with his will ,and become obedient to his will.
It darn well hurts as well ,when he disciplines us.
- Jun 22, 2015
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Woe to you experts in religious law! You have taken away the key to knowledge! You did not go in yourselves, and you hindered those who were going in.” Lk 11:52.
The Master condemned the cold, formalised religion of his day, as being both repulsive and destructive. The leaders had rejected the crystal-clear teaching of Truth, and had dispensed with the key to knowledge. Worse, by their false teachings, they "prevented" others from using it, who might otherwise have benefitted by the knowledge of Truth.
Christ urged his hearers to avoid such an influence
And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would NOT have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Mt 23:30.
By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Mt 23:31.
While they said these things openly, in private they glorified their ancestry. There are examples of this in our recent history, but we will not explore these things in this thread. It's sufficient to accept the Lords warning and undestand how that applies to those who hold the Keys of Knowledge today.
I perceive many will be held accountable when he comes of misusing the Keys of Knowledge.
F2F
The Master condemned the cold, formalised religion of his day, as being both repulsive and destructive. The leaders had rejected the crystal-clear teaching of Truth, and had dispensed with the key to knowledge. Worse, by their false teachings, they "prevented" others from using it, who might otherwise have benefitted by the knowledge of Truth.
Christ urged his hearers to avoid such an influence
And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would NOT have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Mt 23:30.
By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Mt 23:31.
While they said these things openly, in private they glorified their ancestry. There are examples of this in our recent history, but we will not explore these things in this thread. It's sufficient to accept the Lords warning and undestand how that applies to those who hold the Keys of Knowledge today.
I perceive many will be held accountable when he comes of misusing the Keys of Knowledge.
F2F
- Jun 22, 2015
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The Keys were lost by the Religious Elite
The Keys were in Christ's possession
The Keys were given to the Apostles
and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave)! Rev 1:18.
The Lord has the keys, or power, over life and death. Through him, alone, is the means of salvation. He proclaimed the Gospel without fear or favor, and reminded his disciples that he also possessed the "key of David" (Rev 3:7) the symbol of power, authority and kingship.
Paul maintained (@quietthinker quoted) that the "Gospel was the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16), and without this humanity gropes in the darkness of ignorance and in the shadow of death.
The Apostles:
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 16:19).
The Apostles had the ability to understand and proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. This constituted the basis of the community of believers, who are "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20).
The Keys have been made avaliable to all.
The Keys were in Christ's possession
The Keys were given to the Apostles
and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave)! Rev 1:18.
The Lord has the keys, or power, over life and death. Through him, alone, is the means of salvation. He proclaimed the Gospel without fear or favor, and reminded his disciples that he also possessed the "key of David" (Rev 3:7) the symbol of power, authority and kingship.
Paul maintained (@quietthinker quoted) that the "Gospel was the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16), and without this humanity gropes in the darkness of ignorance and in the shadow of death.
The Apostles:
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 16:19).
The Apostles had the ability to understand and proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. This constituted the basis of the community of believers, who are "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20).
The Keys have been made avaliable to all.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Short commentary.
“For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness. No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb.12:10-12).
“For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness. No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb.12:10-12).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Love is not punitive; love allows choices without coercion.
Moses wrote and attributed to God the various disasters which fell upon men, including Sodom and Gomorrah and the Great Flood. These are not attributes of the God Jesus came to reveal/ represent.
We want to know the true Character of God? The voice on the mountain (God) told us to listen to the Son....even though Moses and Elijah were present. Jesus' view of God trump's that of Moses and Elijah.
Who is the destroyer? Ohhhhh, of course, you don't believe in Satan!.....and so you give God the blame the same as others do and have.....including the OT Prophets.
Moses said go to the temple and kill a lamb and you will be forgiven. Jesus directs neither but forgives because that's his nature.....as it is God's.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Men have always blamed God for disasters. Does that make God responsible?
Jesus tells us there is one who is out to steal, kill and destroy. He will gladly do just that when we insistently push away God's protection.
Have we forgotten these words, 'while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly'
How is it we are so resistant to believe God is so good?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You insist on understanding the nature of God through the lens of fallen man including the Prophets. Those who had Jesus killed rationalised from the same base.
You dismiss God's revelation of himself in Jesus as 'inconsequential' or secondary. The quotes you choose and the conclusions you draw scream this.......thus you prefer the description of God given by men through their limited and faulty lens....irrespective of how 'revered' they appear in mens minds.
This is your default position which you insist on and position you argue from.
- Jun 22, 2015
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No love comes from Goodness and His wrath comes from His Severity.
You have half a god.
God revealed Himself through a willing and obedient Son and offered him up as a Sacrifice for Sin as a propitiation for sin.
We see His Character through His Actions - He is a God to be Feared & Loved. We have been through this quiet and your lack of response was telling of your lack of understanding on Who is God.
This was a manifestation of the Glorified Christ and had nothing to do with the judgement of God - it was a vision of the Kingdom age when Christ will rule with a two edge sword which will protrude from his mouth.
Read Psalm 2 - not difficult to understand.
a Gk Methological god who Christians love to fantasize about.
No instead God offered the Lamb of God which takes away sin of the world. John 1:29
As I've said before queit - there has not been a time during our chats when you don't contradict His Word in one way or another.
F2F
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- Jun 22, 2015
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I'm not blaming God for anything nor can I with any evidence suggest God is the source of any disasters. However, who opened the ground and swallowed those sinful men?
God is perfect Goodness - every Good and Perfect thing comes down from above, even HIs Judgements are good and perfect.
F2F
- Jun 22, 2015
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God does not change from Old to New! I can show both His Goodness and Severity from both.
No I havn't - this is merely your opinion. You hold onto the Lamb of God and are yet to acknowledge the Lion of God because you have not studied to show yourself approved. You pick and choose what you want to know and belief.
So are you going to answer the questions or avoid them as usual?
And my anger will burn and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives will be widows and your children will be fatherless Ex 22:24.
Why not give it a go? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain!
1. Read the context in which this law is given.
2. Find an example where God inacted this punishment with those guilty of breaking this law
3. Explain why God acted in this way and what His reasoning for what He did.
Consider this a joint Bible Study where you open the Word that it might give you light.
F2F
