Justified by Works

[GodsGrace]

Right

For example, catholic have faith with works, but is of their own wisdom and efforts, which contradicts the foundation of the Holy Bible. Apparently, we're built in the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, and our faith with works in service supposedly tangible to their word/saying/teaching.

What does faith and works mean?
What does of their own wisdom and efforts mean?
I don't know any denomination that claims to be able to serve God with only man's strength.
Isn't this the entire controversy with Pelagius?
Didn't the church side with Augustine?

I'm reading such contradicting and incorrect statements in this thead.

For they were the chosen 'instruments', servants to bring and act, faith with works, serving GOD and HIS people. Their testament in word and action, is the exact word/saying/teaching of Lord Jesus Christ. Ones they've been disciple in, or after ones by revelation of the Spirit, or according to the wisdom given them in fellowship with the Spirit.

In other words, they were merely ordinary, unlooked at, and thrown away, earthen vessels. Where GOD takes them, wash them clean from inside and out, refurbish them. Hence either for ordinary or elegant use and store HIS treasures in them. So on display is to be witnessed by others in the market place, where as well comes out of them HIS treasures. For it is written, Moses gave us the Law but Jesus Christ brought us grace and truth. Jesus chose these 12 vessels in the same manner, washed, cleaned and restored them. And stored the disciple grace and truth, and power, HIS treasures inside of them.

And to the chosen 13th, the same, vessel stored further of HIS treasures, grace and truth either by revelation or according to the wisdom given such in full display. They as doers and abiders to what they preach, are partly justified by faith with works. Ones on display of these treasures manifesting in the market place for others to witness and buy. Nevertheless, they do not justify their faith with works is of their own or on their own doing. Since being mere instruments, vessels or servants in the market place and on display of these treasures. While the discovery of discarded waste, restoration and treasures bestowed in them alone done by HIM.

Luke 7:
32. They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Matthew 13:

52. Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Here in other words, new and old treasure apparently referring to the New Testament and Old Testament. Please take note that every born again scribes in the market place or church today, brings forth the New Testament and Old. And not Old Testament and New, where incompetent scribes and church of other denomination do so the other way around.

Shalom in Jesus name

Are good works necessary for our salvation or not?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah but you didn't highlight the context of the statement and I did, so that's called misrepresentation!

Why not go ahead and highlight the context of the statement you made?
HOW am I misrepresenting you when I plainly posted your exact words?

 

[Fred J]

Even the Reformers didn't say they thought all Catholics were doomed, so I wouldn't say "Catholics" are necessarily thinking or doing something completely disqualifying.

Again, per the OP, which you still haven't addressed, I think "works" has been misunderstood.

Looks like you're too in the same page of misunderstanding 'works', when the Holy Bible is clear about it.

Based on catholics or other denominations, besides the Reformers, those who are disciple in the All Scripture = Holy Bible. Apparently these are able to recognize them by their fruit, or distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and 'spirit of error'.

For the record, the Reformers initially being ordained catholic priests, came out of catholicism themselves. By their teaching and the distribution of the Holy Bible, as catholic peasants to the kings and queens. They firsthand got to witness for themselves the twistedness of papacy and catholicism. Now, whether they decide to leave and get persecuted, or to stay continue and be safe cowards the matter.

Or in other words, know nothing at all or want not to know nothing at all, just go with the flow to catholicism is till today. For example, if am part or in the organization of brutal mafia, but i do good besides them and the godfather. Now as the fruit from catholicism, am i justified that am not one of them being in the same gang of evil doers? Or am i not a similar fellow criminal like them with blood and blood money in my hands doing good?

What if i come out completely and get a legal job, and for a start get to do good for even one needy at a time. Have i not repented and henceforth doing real good is legit and justified? Even if i steal from the rich and give it to the poor, am still a thief and criminal at heart before acting on it.

Would want to leave you with these and move on, thank you

 

[GracePeace]

Looks like you're too in the same page of misunderstanding 'works', when the Holy Bible is clear about it.

Based on catholics or other denominations, besides the Reformers, those who are disciple in the All Scripture = Holy Bible. Apparently these are able to recognize them by their fruit, or distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and 'spirit of error'.

For the record, the Reformers initially being ordained catholic priests, came out of catholicism themselves. By their teaching and the distribution of the Holy Bible, as catholic peasants to the kings and queens. They firsthand got to witness for themselves the twistedness of papacy and catholicism. Now, whether they decide to leave and get persecuted, or to stay continue and be safe cowards the matter.

Or in other words, know nothing at all or want not to know nothing at all, just go with the flow to catholicism is till today. For example, if am part or in the organization of brutal mafia, but i do good besides them and the godfather. Now as the fruit from catholicism, am i justified that am not one of them being in the same gang of evil doers? Or am i not a similar fellow criminal like them with blood and blood money in my hands doing good?

What if i come out completely and get a legal job, and for a start get to do good for even one needy at a time. Have i not repented and henceforth doing real good is legit and justified? Even if i steal from the rich and give it to the poor, am still a thief and criminal at heart before acting on it.

Would want to leave you with these and move on, thank you

Based on what you've said (you seem to be under the impression I don't believe or say doing good matters, and we can just do evil--the opposite is true, i affirm we must do good), I have doubts you actually read what I thought the confusion about the word "works" was (eg, in the OP) before responding.

Proverbs 18
13 One who gives an answer before he hears, It is foolishness and shame to him.

 

[brightfame52]

Why not go ahead and highlight the context of the statement you made?
HOW am I misrepresenting you when I plainly posted your exact words?

I just told you how

 

[Fred J]

What does faith and works mean?
What does of their own wisdom and efforts mean?
I don't know any denomination that claims to be able to serve God with only man's strength.
Isn't this the entire controversy with Pelagius?
Didn't the church side with Augustine?

I'm reading such contradicting and incorrect statements in this thead.

Matthew 15:
6. .......................................... Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of non effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Besides the Jews, even born again and non founded churches, if man made tradition progresses, make it grander, popular, and takes over the time. And besides the Holy Bible, where apparently less and lesser time spent on context, at home nor in the church. Moreover, timely merely out of context from the scripture justification is made based on one's traditions and purposeful at all time, occupies believers.

Therefore hence these men and believers have made the commandment of GOD of non effect by their tradition.

Are good works necessary for our salvation or not?

Receiving salvation by the Gospel, is not of any man's good works, but alone by the unmerited favor of GOD.

Now saved, one born again have entered into the gates of the Kingdom of GOD. Ahead of this believer there is a narrow path showing and a difficult road to follow signs given, to journey forth to HIS House.

The foundation of the Apostles and Prophets in the New Testament believers are disciple and built. In them consist the word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ directly or indirectly given and made with believers in covenant. There are signs and guides to follow closely from the start of the journey, to 'do' and 'abide' by. While taking the narrow path and difficult road to follow in reaching GOD's place of rest, as scripture depicts.

So, that's why according to James to the church, there's faith with works, if not, it's dead and alone. Even so to the church why scripture depicts: 'Workout your own salvation in fear and trembling.' ?

 

[Fred J]

Based on what you've said (you seem to be under the impression I don't believe or say doing good matters, and we can just do evil--the opposite is true, i affirm we must do good), I have doubts you actually read what I thought the confusion about the word "works" was (eg, in the OP) before responding.

Proverbs 18
13 One who gives an answer before he hears, It is foolishness and shame to him.

If you're getting personal, best i leave you alone, no thank you

 

[GracePeace]

If you're getting personal, best i leave you alone, no thank you

You've misrepresented me.
Is that something you like to have happen to you--for people to misrepresent you? If not, why are you perfectly fine doing it to others?

 

[GodsGrace]

I just told you how

It's so exciting posting to you BF.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 15:
6. .......................................... Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of non effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Besides the Jews, even born again and non founded churches, if man made tradition progresses, make it grander, popular, and takes over the time. And besides the Holy Bible, where apparently less and lesser time spent on context, at home nor in the church. Moreover, timely merely out of context from the scripture justification is made based on one's traditions and purposeful at all time, occupies believers.

The above, referring to traditions, is alluding to the Traditions of the CC --- which are totally different.
I would like to point out that the NT also teaches that we are to follow traditions...
2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

By the spoken word or by a letter....
Traditions are fine as long as they're biblical.
The commandments of men were all the rules and laws that the Pharisees had placed on the shoulders of the Jews which were very difficult to keep. Jesus said: My burden is light and my yoke is easy....

But I digress....
This is not what I intended to discuss.

You stated:
For example, catholic have faith with works, but is of their own wisdom and efforts, which contradicts the foundation of the Holy Bible.

I meant to say that there is no such idea as with our own wisdom and efforts - EVEN the CC does not teach this.
Everything we do comes from the grace of God and the strength of the Holy Spirit.

And I wanted to understand better what you meant by faith and works.
Faith saves....
but works are necessary.

Therefore hence these men and believers have made the commandment of GOD of non effect by their tradition.

Receiving salvation by the Gospel, is not of any man's good works, but alone by the unmerited favor of GOD.

By faith.
Agreed.

Now saved, one born again have entered into the gates of the Kingdom of GOD. Ahead of this believer there is a narrow path showing and a difficult road to follow signs given, to journey forth to HIS House.

The foundation of the Apostles and Prophets in the New Testament believers are disciple and built. In them consist the word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ directly or indirectly given and made with believers in covenant. There are signs and guides to follow closely from the start of the journey, to 'do' and 'abide' by. While taking the narrow path and difficult road to follow in reaching GOD's place of rest, as scripture depicts.

I believe the path may not be so difficult if we love our Lord and live to please Him. (but we will not be sin-free).

So, that's why according to James to the church, there's faith with works, if not, it's dead and alone. Even so to the church why scripture depicts: 'Workout your own salvation in fear and trembling.' ?

OK
But so many make such a complicated issue of this.
FAITH SAVES.....not works.

I guess what I'm asking you is this:
MUST we do good works/deeds in order to REMAIN saved?

I never get a straight answer...
always the idea that once we are saved we WANT to do good works.

But the question is simple.
My reply is YES.
Can YOU give a simple reply?

IOW, if we remain as before and there's no change....
are we really regenerated and made into a new creature?

 

[Fred J]

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

'Taught by us', he means by them Apostles chosen of Jesus Christ. Definitely he's not referring to the traditions of the Jews, to some of them he did specify in his epistle.

So, please name and quote the traditions the Apostles taught in the New Testament.

The commandments of men were all the rules and laws that the Pharisees had placed on the shoulders of the Jews which were very difficult to keep. Jesus said: My burden is light and my yoke is easy....

That's what the CC placed on it's peasant, the very bad side of Jews, history repeating itself. Have she repented, nope, until this very day the very leftover of it is witnessable as men made traditions.

But I digress....
This is not what I intended to discuss.

You're right, apparently one may get busted saying the wrong thing, bear with me, thanks.

You stated:
For example, catholic have faith with works, but is of their own wisdom and efforts, which contradicts the foundation of the Holy Bible.

I meant to say that there is no such idea as with our own wisdom and efforts - EVEN the CC does not teach this.
Everything we do comes from the grace of God and the strength of the Holy Spirit.

He the Holy Spirit does not conduct himself outside of the foundation of the Apostle and Prophets in the New Testament we're built in. We're able to recognize the fruit outside of it within Christendom itself. Ones beguiled and led by the one who disguises himself as the spirit of Light.

And moreover it's not surprising that his beguiled human servants disguises themselves as servants of righteousness. Many churches have fallen into this snare of his conducted in disguise and with his beguiled human servants. Therefore, his beguiled servants to the beguiled believers think it's the Holy Spirit.

For example, even when the Jews confronted Jesus, they boasted that the GOD of Abraham was their FATHER. In the very same beguiled state all along they assumed to be true and tradition. Until on the contrary, the Son of GOD Himself in person whom they did not recognize, had to break the spell they're in.

Today He's left it to the true born again church, to break the spells of the false denomination and representatives.

And I wanted to understand better what you meant by faith and works.
Faith saves....
but works are necessary.

Right, for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast.

This initiation faith bestowed on us to respond to the Gospel, be saved and born again, is the gift of GOD. The next initiation of faith comes from hearing the Word of GOD, Jesus' saying/word/teaching making them disciples. The very disciples are required to be not only 'hearers' but also 'doers', and likewise 'abiders' of all His saying/word/ teaching.

Apparently His disciples eventually turn into competent servants of the field. They conduct oneself accordingly and prepared for every good works serving the Kingdom. (2Timothy3:16&17) This is what James refers to, 'faith', comes from hearing the Word of GOD, Jesus, disciple(hearers), 'with', prepared for every good, 'works'(doers). This is corelated to the Gospel saying/word/teaching of Jesus Christ about a 'wise man'.

On the contrary James continues, 'faith'(again hearers), 'without', 'works'(not doers), is 'alone' and 'dead', corelating to a 'foolish man'. Apparently, both built their houses on a foundation, like all the denomination today built. Whether by the 'wise man' or 'foolish man' denominations, where GOD's true church unrecognized servants are 'highlighting' and 'exposing'. Before the test of time when a calamity force will come against these houses/denominations to determine strong and weak foundation built houses.

Well, the weak foundation built house/denomination fell, and great was the fall of it. Paul, even talks about foundations that will tested with fire. Whether made of cheap or expensive materials, to stand the test of time.

I believe the path may not be so difficult if we love our Lord and live to please Him. (but we will not be sin-free).

This is where i differ listening Jesus who speaks the truth and men lie. Unless if you're like Paul and endured what he endured and martyred, then i agree.

But overall, Jesus is the final say, where He said, 'only a few find it.'

MUST we do good works/deeds in order to REMAIN saved?

Can't be a more simpler than 2Timothy3:16&17 / Matthew 7: 24-27 / John 8:31 / 2 John 1: 9-11.

 

[GodsGrace]

He the Holy Spirit does not conduct himself outside of the foundation of the Apostle and Prophets in the New Testament we're built in. We're able to recognize the fruit outside of it within Christendom itself. Ones beguiled and led by the one who disguises himself as the spirit of Light.

I think I lost you at the bakery.
Who is beguiled?
Who disguises himself as the spirit of light?

I was stating how we cannot do anything on our own without the grace of God and the help of the Holy Spirit.
I'm not sure why you're stating the above.

And moreover it's not surprising that his beguiled human servants disguises themselves as servants of righteousness. Many churches have fallen into this snare of his conducted in disguise and with his beguiled human servants. Therefore, his beguiled servants to the beguiled believers think it's the Holy Spirit.

For example, even when the Jews confronted Jesus, they boasted that the GOD of Abraham was their FATHER. In the very same beguiled state all along they assumed to be true and tradition. Until on the contrary, the Son of GOD Himself in person whom they did not recognize, had to break the spell they're in.

Today He's left it to the true born again church, to break the spells of the false denomination and representatives.

I think we're discussing two different topics here.

Right, for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast.

This initiation faith bestowed on us to respond to the Gospel, be saved and born again, is the gift of GOD. The next initiation of faith comes from hearing the Word of GOD, Jesus' saying/word/teaching making them disciples. The very disciples are required to be not only 'hearers' but also 'doers', and likewise 'abiders' of all His saying/word/ teaching.

OK. Now we're discussing the same topic.
We must be doers of the word and not only hearers of the word.
James 1:22

Apparently His disciples eventually turn into competent servants of the field. They conduct oneself accordingly and prepared for every good works serving the Kingdom. (2Timothy3:16&17) This is what James refers to, 'faith', comes from hearing the Word of GOD, Jesus, disciple(hearers), 'with', prepared for every good, 'works'(doers). This is corelated to the Gospel saying/word/teaching of Jesus Christ about a 'wise man'.

Agreed.

On the contrary James continues, 'faith'(again hearers), 'without', 'works'(not doers), is 'alone' and 'dead', corelating to a 'foolish man'. Apparently, both built their houses on a foundation, like all the denomination today built. Whether by the 'wise man' or 'foolish man' denominations, where GOD's true church unrecognized servants are 'highlighting' and 'exposing'. Before the test of time when a calamity force will come against these houses/denominations to determine strong and weak foundation built houses.

I believe Matthew 7:23.....is speaking to individuals.
Jesus states EVERYONE who hears these words of Mine....
these would be individuals and not denominations.
There were no denominations at the time of Jesus....the Christian church had not even begun yet.

Well, the weak foundation built house/denomination fell, and great was the fall of it. Paul, even talks about foundations that will tested with fire. Whether made of cheap or expensive materials, to stand the test of time.

You're applying the scripture to churches/denominations.
I suppose that would still make Jesus statements true.

This is where i differ listening Jesus who speaks the truth and men lie. Unless if you're like Paul and endured what he endured and martyred, then i agree.

But overall, Jesus is the final say, where He said, 'only a few find it.'

Can't be a more simpler than 2Timothy3:16&17 / Matthew 7: 24-27 / John 8:31 / 2 John 1: 9-11.

Agreed. I just hope more than a few find it.
And you posted good verses.
I like, especially, John 8:31
and yes, we're to follow Jesus' teachings, as 2 John 1:9-11 states.

 

[Behold]

The above, referring to traditions, is alluding to the Traditions of the CC ---

Let me show you what is not just "alluding to the Cult of Mary" but is describing it.

'"Your Traditions (of men) have made the word of God of none effect"..

This means that this Cult's man made church traditions, are the authority, and the Bible is just ................whatever.

Any Catholic, who is honest, knows that the Traditions of the Church Fathers, that the Catholic Church Traditions... take precedence over the Bible.

The way the "cult of mary" works that angle, is that they say.>>"well, the Bible is not all there is, so, we added to it, so that its always being filled out and evolved, according to OUR Traditions, OUR Teachings'..

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me show you what is not just "alluding to the Cult of Mary" but is describing it.

'"Your Traditions (of men) have made the word of God of none effect"..

This means that this Cult's man made church traditions, are the authority, and the Bible is just ................whatever.

Any Catholic, who is honest, knows that the Traditions of the Church Fathers, that the Catholic Church Traditions... take precedence over the Bible.

The way the "cult of mary" works that angle, is that they say.>>"well, the Bible is not all there is, so, we added to it, so that its always being filled out and evolved, according to OUR Traditions, OUR Teachings'..

Behold
I stopped reading at CULT OF MARY.

 

[GracePeace]

Behold
I stopped reading at CULT OF MARY.

Are you Catholic, then?

 

[Johann]

Are you Catholic, then?

Yep.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you Catholic, then?

This is for @Johann too.

I'm not Catholic.
I can't be because I don't agree/believe some of the doctrine - let alone dogma.
I'm also becoming disillusioned with Protestantism....too many differing views....
this can't be what Jesus wanted.

So, I guess I'm non-denominational.
Right now I'm attending a Catholic church and am rather immersed in the CC here by me.

 

[Johann]

This is for @Johann too.

I'm not Catholic.
I can't be because I don't agree/believe some of the doctrine - let alone dogma.
I'm also becoming disillusioned with Protestantism....too many differing views....
this can't be what Jesus wanted.

So, I guess I'm non-denominational.
Right now I'm attending a Catholic church and am rather immersed in the CC here by me.

Can you kindly let me know what you don't agree with re the doctrines and dogmas?
I think the last time I've checked there are now over 45, 000 denominations?
Hence me sitting at home and do my studies from here.

Non devi rispondermi, sorella, ma ti consiglierei di restare forte in Gesù Cristo.

J.

 

[Behold]

Behold
I stopped reading at CULT OF MARY.

"cut of Mary" or "cult of the Virgin".. was the original title of what later became the "Catholic" Church.

A "church father'... created this TITLE......."cult of Mary". (Cult of the Virgin).

You thought i did, but this came from your Church.

Was first called the cult of Mary, at Ephesus...........About the middle of AD400.


You should do some research on that title(s), and that would be the beginning of quite a journey for you.

You should supplement that with ......""the Marian theology of key Apostolic Fathers who lived between 100-200 AD.""""

You should do a research into the "Gospel of James" as this one is filled with "Marian" emphasis, that was coveted and used by early Catholic (Cult of Mary) Church Fathers, that developed the "Status of Mary", farther and farther along.

You should find out what happened to the Temple of Diana in Ephesus... what it became.

You should find out why the "Goddess Diana" is referred to as the '"queen of heaven, and a "perpetual virgin"... before this became "Cult of the Virgin" theology.

This book would be of interest to you.., but, not until you really want to know the Truth.
-

 

[uncle silas]

This is for @Johann too.

I'm not Catholic.
I can't be because I don't agree/believe some of the doctrine - let alone dogma.
I'm also becoming disillusioned with Protestantism....too many differing views....
this can't be what Jesus wanted.

So, I guess I'm non-denominational.
Right now I'm attending a Catholic church and am rather immersed in the CC here by me.

In the church of my youth, the minister revelled in attacking the catholic church(it was pentecostal) So, I grew up wondering if catholics could even be saved. A few years later I ended up living in a predominantly catholic community for a while. I saw more love in that commnuity for the poor, downtrodden, and those who had many issues in their lives than I ever had in the churches I had been to. Wish I'd stayed there now.