Justified by Works

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GracePeace

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Thats find and I stand by mine, we will see one day for sure, the Day of Judgment
hlfWell, we can also see the fact that works and faith are not in the same category in the text today :

Romans 4
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

It's not a controversial matter (like interpreting Revelation might be); it's plain.

Toodle-oo!
 
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Johann

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hlfWell, we can also see the fact that works and faith are not in the same category in the text today :

Romans 4
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

Toodle-oo!
Lol!
J.
 
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GodsGrace

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Believing is something you do, an act performed by the person, so if that act you do is the basis for God justifying you, or saving you, its works salvation, condemned by the scripture.
Could you please post some scripture that states that works are condemned by scripture?

Do you understand the difference between
WORKS OF THE LAW
and
WORKS?

Perhaps it's time that you learn the difference?

The entire NT speaks about doing good works.

Matthew 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:23-24

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 13:16

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

James 2:18

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Galatians 6:9

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Do you need more?
There are plenty more.

So if the NT exhorts us TO DO GOOD WORKS....
how can that be condemned by scripture?

Once again your theology has caused a grave conflict.
 

GracePeace

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Could you please post some scripture that states that works are condemned by scripture?

Do you understand the difference between
WORKS OF THE LAW
and
WORKS?

Perhaps it's time that you learn the difference?

The entire NT speaks about doing good works.

Matthew 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:23-24

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 13:16

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

James 2:18

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Galatians 6:9

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Do you need more?
There are plenty more.

So if the NT exhorts us TO DO GOOD WORKS....
how can that be condemned by scripture?

Once again your theology has caused a grave conflict.
Please resolve it by showing how it is NOT a conflict.
The "faith alone" crowd argues that they don't have a problem with works, they only have a problem with works that are done for the purpose of salvation--and, because some of them feel that requiring anyone to believe would make it so that God is not the savior, but that that person saves themselves by believing, they, knowing everyone is already in agreement that "works" do not "save" (because we're "saved" by God's mercy), to try to prove their point, erroneously go ahead and define "faith" as a "work" (conflating the two categories that are contrasted in Scripture).
 
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GodsGrace

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The "faith alone" crowd argues that they don't have a problem with works, they only have a problem with works that are done for the purpose of salvation--and, because some of them feel that requiring anyone to believe would make it so that God does not save but that person saves themselves by believing they erroneously go ahead and (conflate faith and works) define "faith" as a "work" that everyone agrees does not "save" (because we're "saved" by God's mercy).
The other poster stated that BELIEVING is a work.
That would make FAITH a work.
Paul specifically taught that faith and works are totally different.
He said: IF IT IS BY FAITH, THEN IT IS NOT OF WORKS.
Romans 11:6

Faith is NOT a work.
It is a free gift of God...
Ephesians 2:8

I know very well what @brightfame52 believes.

His own denomination doesn't agree with him.
This is from Ligonier Ministries:
So, regeneration is a bringing to new life by this work of the Spirit, who then gives faith after regeneration. Therefore, faith is not a work that we do; it is a gift of God.


Faith is a gift, as the NT teaches.
It is NOT a work.
 

GracePeace

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The other poster stated that BELIEVING is a work.
That would make FAITH a work.
Paul specifically taught that faith and works are totally different.
He said: IF IT IS BY FAITH, THEN IT IS NOT OF WORKS.
Romans 11:6

Faith is NOT a work.
It is a free gift of God...
Ephesians 2:8

I know very well what @brightfame52 believes.

His own denomination doesn't agree with him.
This is from Ligonier Ministries:
So, regeneration is a bringing to new life by this work of the Spirit, who then gives faith after regeneration. Therefore, faith is not a work that we do; it is a gift of God.


Faith is a gift, as the NT teaches.
It is NOT a work.
Exactly! It's not even controversial!
This is like getting your ABCs wrong!
Everyone can see the error!
hlf
 

KUWN

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Yeah, I agree, I just needed more of an answer, because there are so many other truths in Scripture that require answering.
Concerning this comment:

"The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him."

Oh, how I wish that were true!!
 
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GracePeace

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Concerning this comment:

"The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him."

Oh, how I wish that were true!!
Please clarify.
 

brightfame52

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hlfWell, we can also see the fact that works and faith are not in the same category in the text today :

Romans 4
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

It's not a controversial matter (like interpreting Revelation might be); it's plain.

Toodle-oo!
I stand by what I posted
 

brightfame52

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Could you please post some scripture that states that works are condemned by scripture?

Do you understand the difference between
WORKS OF THE LAW
and
WORKS?

Perhaps it's time that you learn the difference?

The entire NT speaks about doing good works.

Matthew 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:23-24

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 13:16

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

James 2:18

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Galatians 6:9

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Do you need more?
There are plenty more.

So if the NT exhorts us TO DO GOOD WORKS....
how can that be condemned by scripture?

Once again your theology has caused a grave conflict.
I never said works are condemned by scripture
 

GodsGrace

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I never said works are condemned by scripture.
You said this in post no. 150:

Believing is something you do, an act performed by the person, so if that act you do is the basis for God justifying you, or saving you, its works salvation, condemned by the scripture.

Maybe you didn't read my post well....
BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK.
You stated that if believing is an act that one does and God justifies the person, then it's works salvation.

BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.

Perhaps you'd care to explain better?

And, I do seem to remember that you state this many times.
 
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brightfame52

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You said this in post no. 150:

Believing is something you do, an act performed by the person, so if that act you do is the basis for God justifying you, or saving you, its works salvation, condemned by the scripture.

Maybe you didn't read my post well....
BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK.
You stated that if believing is an act that one does and God justifies the person, then it's works salvation.

BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.

Perhaps you'd care to explain better?

And, I do seem to remember that you state this many times.
Yeah but you didn't highlight the context of the statement and I did, so that's called misrepresentation!
 

Fred J

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John 8:
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: .......................................
23. ............................................., If a man love Me, he will keep My words: .............................

24. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: .........................................................

Those who continue or keep His word, definitely are disciple who comply them. And they shall know the truth, and the truth shall make them free.

What are the commandments Jesus referring to?
 

GracePeace

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John 8:
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: .......................................
23. ............................................., If a man love Me, he will keep My words: .............................

24. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: .........................................................

Those who continue or keep His word, definitely are disciple who comply them. And they shall know the truth, and the truth shall make them free.

What are the commandments Jesus referring to?
That's not the topic.
If you are interested on pursuing that discussion, I encourage you to make a thread about it.

You are free to address the topic.
 

Fred J

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That's not the topic.
If you are interested on pursuing that discussion, I encourage you to make a thread about it.

You are free to address the topic.
What's your problem and why the hostile?

Every thread and topic according to the Holy Bible belongs to the Kingdom of GOD, and HIS church here on earth. And not to one man, but to all born again in fellowship, that anyone may share according to the wisdom given them.

Now, after one is born again into the Kingdom of GOD, not only of water but also of the Holy Ghost. Therefore the church is justified by faith with works, when disciple believers are doer and abider in the word/teaching of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Where His word/teaching is spirit and life, the lamp unto their feet and the light unto their path. That generates within them and outwardly, the city on a hill, light and salt of the earth. As they also take the baby to the elder step, not only to talk the talk but also walk the walk and finish the race. in their lifetime.

On the other hand, one is not justified by works in order to be saved by the Gospel. That no man can boast nor claim he have attained Salvation by himself. It is merely by the unmerited favor of GOD, where by grace and through faith the gift of GOD, one is simply saved.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
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GracePeace

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Now, after one is born again into the Kingdom of GOD, not only of water but also of the Holy Ghost. Therefore the church is justified by faith with works, when disciple believers are doer and abider in the word/teaching of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Where His word/teaching is spirit and life, the lamp unto their feet and the light unto their path. That generates within them and outwardly, the city on a hill, light and salt of the earth. As they also take the baby to the elder step, not only to talk the talk but also walk the walk and finish the race. in their lifetime.

On the other hand, one is not justified by works in order to be saved by the Gospel. That no man can boast nor claim he have attained Salvation by himself. It is merely by the unmerited favor of GOD, where by grace and through faith the gift of GOD, one is simply saved.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.
OK

My issue has been the idea of a gift of justification by a righteousness of faith, and that no "works" contribute to justification, but, also, if you don't walk in faith, remaining at peace (Ro 5:1), you are "condemned", not justified (Ro 2:6-16, 14:23). That was why I wrote the OP.

Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
"[Christ] came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."
Because walking in faith is not "a righteousness of my own", but God's, justification thereby is "grace not works".

When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.
What's the difference between being under Law and serving others by faith?
Doesn't the Law tell you to love your neighbor?
The Law directs attention to self, to condemn sinfulness.
Looking to the Law/self is turning from Christ; looking to Christ is turning from the Law/self.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God."
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..."
Whose righteousness it is depends on who you behold--self or Christ.
Thus, to serve others by faith Christ authors differs from Law.

Paul had Timothy circumcised, yet he was not an accursed false teacher.
Why? Because Paul did it "because of the Jews in the region".
Paul was serving the Jews, trying to open a door so they might be saved.
Paul's circumcising Timothy proceeded from Christ for the Jews' salvation.
It wasn't because Paul sought justification by Law.

Thus, what makes something a "work", one's own righteousness, is who performs it.
When we walk by faith, that is God performing the righteousness.
"Yet not I but the grace with me."
If we do works, even good ones, without faith, we are condemned (Ro 14:5,23).
Faith is looking to Christ, not self.
God's righteousness, not our works.
"Not I but Christ."

Therefore, to say we're justified by walking in faith is "grace not works".
It's not us.
James taught so.

Paul calls marriage or celibacy "each man's gift".
So, man's walking in either of these is his "gift" given by grace--not his "work".
Walking in faith is "the gift of righteousness"--not our works, but God's.

Thus, Ro 2 can say "doers of the Law will be justified" without contradicting "grace not works".
The examples of doers it gives are Gentile believers who walk in God's righteousness by faith.
Walking by faith is not a righteousness of one's own, but God's.

Some claim "works" refers to Jewish practices like circumcision.
"We're not justified by becoming Jews," is their conclusion.
That doesn't work: Ro 3 "by works of Law comes the knowledge of sin".
Ro 7:7 says the fact that coveting is sinful is known by the Law.
So, "works of Law" encompasses the entirety of the Law's commands.

Then how can we be justified by being doers of the Law?
Because the works that justify come from God, as a gift, not self.
That's the difference--God's righteousness or man's righteousness.

So, yes, actually, we are justified, as James says, by walking in faith--and it's not a contradiction of "grace not works".
Paul uses "works" technically.
It seems James is correcting people who've misunderstood Paul.
It seems James uses "works" in a less technical way.
 
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Fred J

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My issue has been the idea of a gift of justification by a righteousness of faith, and that no "works" contribute to justification, but, also, if you don't walk in faith, remaining at peace (Ro 5:1), you are "condemned", not justified (Ro 2:6-16, 14:23). That was why I wrote the OP.
Right

For example, catholic have faith with works, but is of their own wisdom and efforts, which contradicts the foundation of the Holy Bible. Apparently, we're built in the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, and our faith with works in service supposedly tangible to their word/saying/teaching.

For they were the chosen 'instruments', servants to bring and act, faith with works, serving GOD and HIS people. Their testament in word and action, is the exact word/saying/teaching of Lord Jesus Christ. Ones they've been disciple in, or after ones by revelation of the Spirit, or according to the wisdom given them in fellowship with the Spirit.

In other words, they were merely ordinary, unlooked at, and thrown away, earthen vessels. Where GOD takes them, wash them clean from inside and out, refurbish them. Hence either for ordinary or elegant use and store HIS treasures in them. So on display is to be witnessed by others in the market place, where as well comes out of them HIS treasures. For it is written, Moses gave us the Law but Jesus Christ brought us grace and truth. Jesus chose these 12 vessels in the same manner, washed, cleaned and restored them. And stored the disciple grace and truth, and power, HIS treasures inside of them.

And to the chosen 13th, the same, vessel stored further of HIS treasures, grace and truth either by revelation or according to the wisdom given such in full display. They as doers and abiders to what they preach, are partly justified by faith with works. Ones on display of these treasures manifesting in the market place for others to witness and buy. Nevertheless, they do not justify their faith with works is of their own or on their own doing. Since being mere instruments, vessels or servants in the market place and on display of these treasures. While the discovery of discarded waste, restoration and treasures bestowed in them alone done by HIM.

Luke 7:
32. They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not we
pt.

Matthew 13:

52. Then said He unto them,
Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Here in other words, new and old treasure apparently referring to the New Testament and Old Testament. Please take note that every born again scribes in the market place or church today, brings forth the New Testament and Old. And not Old Testament and New, where incompetent scribes and church of other denomination do so the other way around.

Shalom in Jesus name
 
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GracePeace

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Right

For example, catholic have faith with works, but is of their own wisdom and efforts, which contradicts the foundation of the Holy Bible.
Even the Reformers didn't say they thought all Catholics were doomed, so I wouldn't say "Catholics" are necessarily thinking or doing something completely disqualifying.
They as doers and abiders to what they preach, are partly justified by faith with works.
...
Ones on display of these treasures manifesting in the market place for others to witness and buy. Nevertheless, they do not justify their faith with works is of their own or on their own doing.
Again, per the OP, which you still haven't addressed, I think "works" has been misunderstood.