Justified by Works
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I didn't think I was presenting a "conflict". Sometimes our conceptions don't allow for plain statements in Scripture (eg, Ro 14:23), but, for me, when that happens, I have to rethink my assumptions... but wasn't it you who said...
?
I don't understand how you object to me saying (in other words) the same thing you say--ie, "If you do wrong (something you are not fully convinced, in your mind and conscience, is correct--if you do something you doubt is correct), you are not right with God (you're condemned), but if you do right (what you are fully convinced, in your mind and conscience, is correct), you are right with God (justified)".
Tell me what you think.
To my mind, as it says in Galatians 3 ("Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected...?"), we are justified by the righteousness of faith, and attain peace with God (Ro 5:1), and then we are perfected by the same righteousness of faith ("God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" Ro 1:17)--the same "footsteps of faith" Abraham had after having already been justified by the righteousness of faith (Ro 4)--and if we are not remaining in faith in our walking ("fully convinced in his own mind" Ro 14:5), we are not remaining in "the righteousness of God", nor the justification based on God's righteousness, nor the peace based on the justification. Clearly : the man isn't "justified" but "condemned".
Not that the main focus is ourselves or our works (God is the focus), but, still, I can't erase what is written, I honor what is written to the best of my ability.
Therefore, the conclusion from all of these things would be, "...let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful." (Col 3:15). You have been made to be at peace, so remain at peace--do not do things that disturb your peace.
Is this wrong in your estimation?
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The occasion for the writing of the Epistle to the Romans was this : the Roman Government had ousted the Jews (as governments have been wont to do to the Jews throughout history) from Rome, but, now that they were returning to Rome, they were finding it full of Gentile believers.
In the Torah, it says "there shall be one Law for the native born and for the stranger who sojourns among you" : the Jews had to be flabberghasted that they had one set of rules they lived by, whereas the Gentiles had another set of rules they lived by.
Paul deflates this issue with the "one Law for the native born and for the stranger who sojourns among you" under the New Covenant : "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind". This allows for diversity in practice (some have a clear conscience before the Lord that they may eat only vegetables, and they are held to that, whereas others have a clear conscience to eat meat; some have a clear conscience to observe a day as special to the Lord, and they are held to that, whereas others have a clear conscience to not observe a day as unto the Lord, and they are held to that) without nullifying the Torah ("rather, we establish the Law" Ro 3:31).
Before you ask, no, I'm not saying we're under Law, because we're under Grace, but Jesus says He didn't come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it, and Paul says those who walk after the Spirit have the righteous requirement of the Law fulfilled in them (Ro 8:4).
I agree with you that Paul addresses a litany of issues in Romans 14, but that does not also mean that one of those issues could not have been the "one Law" for all, nor does it undermine the plain reality that Paul lays out the ramifications for the breaking that "one Law" for all ("God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" Ro 1:17, so that "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" Ro 14:5,6, and "anything that is not from faith is sin" with the result that "the one who eats with doubts is condemned for his eating is not of faith" Ro 14:23).
I don't know where I could have misjudged or erred so that you object.
Yes, as you say, "[God] is faithful and righteous" (1 John 1:9)--He keeps His Word--but this is not the only import of the phrase "the righteousness of God" :
Philippians 3
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Why is Paul saying he does not want to have a righteousness of his own from the Law, but another righteousness--the righteousness from God (as Romans 3:21 says, "the righteousness of God apart from the Law", because one of Jesus's Names is "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6)) if "the righteousness of God" is solely with respect to God keeping His promises?
This was the righteousness Paul wanted in lieu of his own righteousness from the Law. If it wasn't his own righteousness, whose was it? Obviously, it was God's : men have been gifted God's righteousness.
2 Co 5
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
So, being in Him, we are God's righteousness, His works, because "God is at work in us to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12, 13)--as Christ said, "The Father does the works in Me." John 14:10, the same is now true of us (God is at work in us). The Roman Gentiles could be deemed "doers of the Law" without ever having had or known the Law, because they had the Law written on the heart (Ro 2:13-15). This is all "God's righteousness".
So, again, "God's righteousness" is not solely about the issue of God keeping His promises--far from it! God's righteousness is given to men in Christ Jesus.
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In context, the "doubt" refers to breaking the Law of Faith "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5).
My point was that Paul's argument in Romans was that men are not justified by their own righteousness by "works" but by God's righteousness by His "grace" through "faith"--and that when I follow the text, and go further, I see we're expected to not only have peace by having been justified by the righteousness of faith, but also remain in peace by remaining in that justification by remaining in the righteousness of faith, because the text says the man who does not remain in faith (is not "fully convinced in his own mind" in his conscience about the rightness of his deeds) is condemned not justified.
Colossians 3
15Let the peace of Christ... rule in your hearts...
I'm saying that "faith is counted as righteousness" goes further--that it also applies to our walk. God accepts us as we are, and our conviction, by God working in us for His pleasure, about what ought to be done in light of the truth of knowing Him, is accepted as righteousness.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
My Point is….a relationship between one man and God, requires an INPUT regarding each.
God lays out His Order, His Way, His Offering, “His terms, so to speak”….and the Consequences FOR the man to ACCEPT or REJECT Gods Offering.
And the man, can hear, learn, study Gods Offering…. Try it out, (called Tasting) receive some positive “consequences”, recognize it or not, “continue”…. Take a hiatus….return….and at some point…(on the mans Journey in his Life)….
Decide to Believe, but not commit.
Decide to Commit to Gods Offering…(called Eating)
Decide to Reject Gods Offering….
and
“even” Become an Advocate TO other men…
TO:
commit or reject Gods Offering…
Pretty much…inanutshell…every mans Journey….
When an individual begins or establishes his Journey, (for or against God) has No time-stamped age, gender, ethnicity, etc. barriers.
For a man to BE Forever WITH the Lord God Almighty…
The ONLY requirement is that the man HAS a (non-committed OR Committed) Belief in his heart, IN the Lord God, BEFORE the mans physical death…
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
No issue for me. It is Scriptural teaching,
I believe, I trust, I understand.
Glory to God,
Taken
Huh?
Wait.
I need another cup of coffee !
What I said is this:
We become justified by God.
We are born again and our spirit belongs to God.
IF we sin, and we do, we have an advocate, as John stated in 1 John.
Because we sin does NOT mean that we lose our justification.
If it did, we'd be born again, lost, born again, lost etc continually.
This is not what the NT teaches.
Condemned means we're headed for hell.
We cannot be condemned and justified at the same time.
You put together a whole bunch of doctrinal words that would take paragraphs to go through.
We are justified by faith.
We are perfected/sanctified by OUR OWN obedience to God... our own works/good deeds.
Don't get WORKS mixed up with works of the Law -which is what Paul is talking about.
Good works are required.
Guess I need some verses:
Matthew 5:16
16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:10a
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
James 2:14-17
14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
Hebrews 11:13
13Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
That should be sufficient - there are many more.
I hope you understand that works are different from works of the Law.
Paul is against works of the Law.
He teaches works.
(as do all the Apostles).
Disagree.
The main focus IS ourselves and our works.
No need to erase what is written.
The NT teaches that WE ARE TO DO GOOD WORKS.
WE do the good works --- not God.
God already kept His promise and did what He had to do.
It's up to us now.
Sometimes you sound like the very persons that you post against and it's very confusing.
We are JUSTIFIED by faith alone.
We are SANCITIFIED by our works....
by obedience to our faith.
Romans 1:5 We have received the obedience of faith through grace.
WE OBEY through obedience through OUR faith through God's grace and help --- God working in us.
Philippians 2:31
The above paragraph is absolutely correct.
If we're not at peace about something, it means we did or are doing something wrong.
This does not, however, bring about our condemnation.
Romans 14:23 is speaking about OUR CONSCIENCE being condemned...
not our soul by God.
Our conscience is telling us that we're doing something wrong.
I believe I explained myself well in the post just before this one...no. 309
You bring up Romans 1:17 many times.
Paul was the bringer of the good news to the gentiles.
The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel because God is a right God and has kept
the promise He made to Abraham --- many nations. Although Israel was first - the Jews, also the Gentiles were grafted in.
God would also bless the righteous and curse the wicked....somehow this works out well.
Romans 1:17 also teaches that our faith makes us be right with God.
This gracious grace God gifts to us and allows us to be children of His.
Faith for Faith....it is our faith that saves us.
This faith will save us and is our hope in our salvation.
The above alone speaks to the love God has for us and explains why He's willing to
forgive us our sins and not condemn us even though we may condemn ourselves when
we realize we've sinned.
So you're saying that God IMPUTES to us HIS righteousness?
This is exactly what those you fight say!
Paul is saying that our righteousness of our own from THE LAW is not what he is teaching.
Philippians 3 Paul is saying that our righteousness come from Grace now --- which I know you believe.
You're stating that God is imputing His righteousness to us....
I do believe that would mean that we would never sin.
or
that we could sin all we want to because it's HIS righteousness that counts and not our own.
Why all those verses about works that I posted if we're righteous because of God and not because of our own works done in faith?
You deny the obvious verbatim statement that the one who sins is condemned.
There is nothing I can do about that.
You have it your way--and I have it my way.
The works you say we should do, which I agree with, are performed by God in us, and we walk in them.
I'm not talking about "imputation" in the sense "there, it's yours--it's been imputed, now live like the devil if you want because it's imputed"--obviously, I'm saying God's righteousness apart from the Law involves being found in Christ Whose Name is "God Is Our Righteousness", and in Christ wenwill have God's working in us to will and do for His pleasure and we are to obey that working (Php 2:12,13).
Here, he preaches to the Jewish Christians for the lions share of the epistle.
Paul also includes the concept of the Day of Judgment in his "Gospel" (Ro 2:16). It's not a one-note thing "God raised Christ from the dead." It includes other aspects than that--and when it says "God's righteousness from faith to faith", I contend that it is connected with the terms set out in Ro 14 (we are to walk in faith not do things we doubt if we are to abide in Christ Who is "God Is Our Righteousness" and thereby retain the justification based on having God as our righteousness).
Yep, but if you do what you doubt you're condemned bc you're not in faith (faith is counted as righteousness so without it you're not justified but "condemned" Ro 14:23).
Nope, faith TO faith... it's an ongoing thing, and if you take a step in doubt, instead of faith, you're condemned.
Nope. Here is where we diverge : you reject the plain words stated there, I accept them (Ro 14:23).
There is no moving forward when one party rejects the text that is supposed to be the topic of the discussion--if the chess board is overturned, the match is over, bc no board exists in the place it ought to be for a match to be played.
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We're saved by grace and through faith, the gift of GOD, and not of works nor of ourselves. Once we've been welcomed into the Kingdom and made children, there's faith and work race to reach to the top.
2 Peter 1:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promise: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Apparently believers who have faith are to add to one's faith these above in works. And these things must be in them, and abound furthermore, if they continue in these works.
2 Timothy 3:
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of GOD may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
James 2:
17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
1. Yes, "saved by grace not works" : the Jews' "salvation" from slavery by the blood of Passover lambs was a type of our salvation ("whoever sins is a slave of sin") by the blood of Christ our Passover Lamb.
However, we know that the Jews, after having been saved, became reprobate through sin, and God swore in His wrath they would never enter His rest--Paul says the same applies to Christians (1 Co 9:27-10:11).
2. As for "works", and whether they play a role in final justification, that was already addressed in the OP which you were ostensiby responding to without actually responding to in the slightest way..
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Thats find and I stand by mine, we will see one day for sure, the Day of Judgment
Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !
