Justified by Works

[Grailhunter]

1. I have asserted that Christians who do not walk in faith are not remaining in God's righteousness, and will not be justified at the Judgment (Ro 2:6-16). Did you disagree with that?

I disagree with your wording. We are justified by faith before Judgment Day. But at Judgment day we receive our reward or punishment based one what we have done.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[GracePeace]

I disagree with your wording. We are justified by faith before Judgment Day. But at Judgment day we receive our reward or punishment based one what we have done.

OK In part, I agree, but if justification isn't also an issue on the Day of Judgment, why does Romans 2 says only doers of the Law will be justified on the Day of Judgment?

 

[GracePeace]

I disagree with your wording. We are justified by faith before Judgment Day. But at Judgment day we receive our reward or punishment based one what we have done.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

OK In part, I agree, but if justification isn't also an issue on the Day of Judgment, why does Romans 2 says only doers of the Law will be justified on the Day of Judgment?

See, you're acknowledging that we are justified by God's righteousness before the Day of judgment, but I am saying that we are expected to continue in God's righteousness, or else, if that righteousness is not there, because we're not continuing in faith, it won't be there to justify us on the Day of Judgment--and, actually, without it, we are "condemned", not "justified", in the here and now (Ro 14:23)--and that those Christians who are not continuing in God's righteousness by grace through faith, who are going to be condemned, not justified, on the Day of Judgment, will not be repaid eternal life but wrath.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have asserted that, at the same time, there is a need to distinguish, so as to avoid confusion, that the righteousness Christians walk in is not a righteousness of their own (works), but God's righteousness (grace and faith). Did you disagree with that?

Yes I disagree. Christ's righteousness is perfect, not that we can equate that. But still righteousness should be our goal, but still that is not what saves us….then again the alternative….sinning can send us to Hell. Forgiveness is ours by the blood of Christ, but do not take Christ for a fool. Forgiveness and Grace is not a license to sin.

People will bring it up to me all the time the scripture that indicated that no one was righteous. LOL

That is just one scripture. But the words righteous and righteousness appears around 400 times in the Bible. Never in the scriptures do they tell us not to even try to be righteous.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes I disagree. Christ's righteousness is perfect, not that we can equate that. But still righteousness should be our goal, but still that is not what saves us….then again the alternative….sinning can send us to Hell. Forgiveness is ours by the blood of Christ, but do not take Christ for a fool. Forgiveness and Grace is not a license to sin.

People will bring it up to me all the time the scripture that indicated that no one was righteous. LOL

That is just one scripture. But the words righteous and righteousness appears around 400 times in the Bible. Never in the scriptures do they tell us not to even try to be righteous.

It sounds like we're saying a similar point using different words.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes I disagree. Christ's righteousness is perfect, not that we can equate that. But still righteousness should be our goal, but still that is not what saves us….then again the alternative….sinning can send us to Hell. Forgiveness is ours by the blood of Christ, but do not take Christ for a fool. Forgiveness and Grace is not a license to sin.

People will bring it up to me all the time the scripture that indicated that no one was righteous. LOL

That is just one scripture. But the words righteous and righteousness appears around 400 times in the Bible. Never in the scriptures do they tell us not to even try to be righteous.

The reason I said we have to distinguish between works/a righteousness of our own and walking in faith/God's righteousness is bc people want to deny our behavior can affect our standing before God, bc they say "not works"--but I'm not saying "works", I'm saying "God's righteousness ".

 

[GodsGrace]

See, you're acknowledging that we are justified by God's righteousness before the Day of judgment, but I am saying that we are expected to continue in God's righteousness, or else, if that righteousness is not there, because we're not continuing in faith, it won't be there to justify us on the Day of Judgment--and, actually, without it, we are "condemned", not "justified", in the here and now (Ro 14:23)--and that those Christians who are not continuing in God's righteousness by grace through faith, who are going to be condemned, not justified, on the Day of Judgment, will not be repaid eternal life but wrath.

Hi GracePeace,
This is also for @Grailhunter because I'm having difficulty understanding what the two of you are discussing but will have to sign off till tomorrow.

This is what I don't understand and am getting a little tired of hearing...

The idea that we don't live by our righteousness, but by God's righteousness.
What does this mean exactly?

Could you explain what righteous means?
Are we giving the same definition?

Righteous means to be RIGHT WITH GOD.
WE must each be right with God.
God does not have to be right with God.

IT IS our own behavior and faith that makes us be righteous
BY OUR OWN DOING....

1 John 3:7
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;


Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I see that you have another thread on filthy rags but I have no time now.
I see that this is an important issue for you.
Do you believe YOU have to be righteous....
or do you believe Jesus has to be righteous FOR YOU?

 

[GodsGrace]

It sounds like we're saying a similar point using different words.

A problem with Christianity these days....
It's as if we speak different languages.

 

[GracePeace]

Hi GracePeace,
This is also for @Grailhunter because I'm having difficulty understanding what the two of you are discussing but will have to sign off till tomorrow.

This is what I don't understand and am getting a little tired of hearing...

The idea that we don't live by our righteousness, but by God's righteousness.
What does this mean exactly?

It has to be discussed, bc of the wording in Scripture. The wording in Scripture makes the issue difficult, bc, as Peter warns, many things Paul says are difficult to understand.

In Romans, it appears Paul distinguishes between a righteousness of one's own, which has its correspondence when he refers to "works" (or "works of the law"), which are things men do by their weakness apart from knowing God, which ostensibly "prove" they are righteous, whereas God's righteousness, which has its correspondence when he refers to when he speaks about "grace" by "faith", which proves men are not good, but that God is good (Ro 10:3), is performed by God.
However, when men are proving God is good and righteous, they "communicate" His righteousness, as it says "God Is Our Righteousness" is one of Christ's names (Jer 23:6)--they share in His righteousness, and, so, it says "the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us" (Ro 8:4), so that even men who do not possess or know the Law can be deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:13-15).

When Peter healed the beggar, he denied it was his own piety that caused the healing, yet no one would say he was living a wild life of an impious man. Lol He was speaking of the fact that God was righteous, of how God is righteous to forgive us if we submit to the truth, and vindicate God's righteous condemnation of ourselves as sinners, but also His righteousness to forgive those who believe in Christ.

Could you explain what righteous means?
Are we giving the same definition?

Righteous means to be RIGHT WITH GOD.
WE must each be right with God.
God does not have to be right with God.

Justified means God has examined the evidence, and rendered a decision based on the evidence, because He found righteousness when He examined the evidence.
Faith is counted as righteousness, so when God examines the evidence, and finds this "righteousness", He justifies us (declares us to be in right standing), and with this we find peace (Ro 5:1).

IT IS our own behavior and faith that makes us be righteous
BY OUR OWN DOING....

1 John 3:7
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I see that you have another thread on filthy rags but I have no time now.
I see that this is an important issue for you.
Do you believe YOU have to be righteous....
or do you believe Jesus has to be righteous FOR YOU?

Christian righteousness is declaring God's righteousness--to bring people into fellowship with Him, by grace through faith, not to convince anyone that we are good or righteous, for our glory, to bring people to ourselves. If we bring people to ourselves, it is only because we want to deliver them to God. That is assuming we are already ourselves with God. We are with God because He is righteous.

A problem with Christianity these days....
It's as if we speak different languages.

I try to stick closely to Scripture's language.

 

[GracePeace]

In order for Romans to make sense, it needs to be re-framed around justification by "a righteousness of my own" or "God's righteousness"--"faith or works" (to which "a righteousness of my own" and "God's righteousness" correspond) debates miss the point Paul was making, and result in empty points being made.

 

[MatthewG]

In order for Romans to make sense, it needs to be re-framed around justification by "a righteousness of my own" or "God's righteousness"--"faith or works" (to which "a righteousness of my own" and "God's righteousness" correspond) debates miss the point Paul was making, and result in empty points being made.

You also have to consider the Wrath of God was coming, would one end up being saved from that destruction if they had not already passed away? Just something to consider. Blessings.

 

[GracePeace]

A while ago, I would get a lot of challenges to what I'd claim.

I get to the point, with some people, where I notice there is no reasoning with them (they want to hold to what ever they hold, no matter what Scriptural challenge that would make any honest person curious at their own arguments' inconsistencies), so I block them.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is why some people are no longer interacting with me (ie, they may think that of me--justifiably or not (I would argue unjustifiably, since I'm satisfied I've answered most or every challenge)).

It may also be that we've already argued the points so many times, and have arrived at the same crossroads so many times, so there's no point in debating, because a) they already know where it's going, and they're actually unperturbed by the force of my arguments, believing (I would argue unjustifiably) they have answered satisfactorily, or b) they know where the argument is going, and they don't want to be perturbed by the force of my arguments which they know they have no answers to.

One of the reasons I enjoy discussion is "iron sharpens iron"--the pressure you all mercilessly apply to me (less annoyingly when it was done in good faith--when done in bad faith, more annoyingly) would always make me better, because I'd have to examine my arguments for any flaws, and question my perceptions, instead of giving them the love of a mother (loving even what is indefensible only because it "came from my mind").

I have found streaming debate communities, and I have found those circles to be helpful in similar ways (including that they pray for me as some of you used to), and I've begun to fit in there, and add my contours, as they contribute to mine (1 Co 12:20); still, "the more the merrier", and I'd prefer more interaction on these ideas than less, though I can understand the decrease in participation for any of the aforementioned reasons.

 

[GodsGrace]

It has to be discussed, bc of the wording in Scripture. The wording in Scripture makes the issue difficult, bc, as Peter warns, many things Paul says are difficult to understand.

I don't know what's so difficult.
God gave us a way to save our souls.
Jesus explained HOW we do this.
Paul was writing to Jews that understood about THE LAW....

Seems pretty simple to me:
A person believes in God
And obeys His rules and regulations.

It's up to US to obey....it's not up to Jesus.
Jesus already obeyed God Father and did what He was supposed to do.

In Romans, it appears Paul distinguishes between a righteousness of one's own, which has its correspondence when he refers to "works" (or "works of the law"), which are things men do by their weakness apart from knowing God, which ostensibly "prove" they are righteous, whereas God's righteousness,

Whatever works a man does apart from knowing God are dead works.
James made this very clear.
Works do not save a person....this is exactly what it means.
Works without faith are dead works.
Faith without works is dead faith.
James 2:26

So, a person that does works - whatever they may be - but has no faith in God cannot be righteous.
He cannot be RIGHT WITH GOD since he does not have faith in God.

which has its correspondence when he refers to when he speaks about "grace" by "faith", which proves men are not good, but that God is good (Ro 10:3), is performed by God.

No.
We are righteous by our own works.
The NT refers to OUR works AFTER we have faith...
Jesus does not do the works for us.

You mentioned Romans 10:3
First of all, Romans 10 is addressing the salvation of the Jews....corporate salvation.

Second...what do you think it means?
God made provision for mankind's salvation...
We have to follow HIS rules not the rules WE make up.
The Jews were making up their own rules as to how to be saved.
It states that CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW.
Following rules and regulations WITH NO FAITH will save no one and the Jews could not or did not adhere
to the NEW way - the way of faith and grace - the way Jesus taught.

The Law was not sufficient and thus we must depend on the New Covenant.
This is all Paul meant.

We cannot create our own righteousness....
but must follow God's law in order to be righteous.

However, when men are proving God is good and righteous, they "communicate" His righteousness, as it says "God Is Our Righteousness" is one of Christ's names (Jer 23:6)--they share in His righteousness, and, so, it says "the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us" (Ro 8:4), so that even men who do not possess or know the Law can be deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:13-15).

The above has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
Romans 2 is discussing those that did not KNOW God even existed but still followed their conscience...
It's like Romans 1:19-21.
Different topic, IMHO.

When Peter healed the beggar, he denied it was his own piety that caused the healing, yet no one would say he was living a wild life of an impious man. Lol He was speaking of the fact that God was righteous, of how God is righteous to forgive us if we submit to the truth, and vindicate God's righteous condemnation of ourselves as sinners, but also His righteousness to forgive those who believe in Christ.

OK
I think we're throwing around the word righteous/righteousness here and I don't think we're using it the same way.

Here's what it means:

Dikaiosune, or righteousness, means living in right relationship with God, other people, and all creation. We act with righteousness when we live justly, honestly, and faithfully according to God's instruction.

Now....
WHO does the living in right relationship with God?
God?
or us?

Justified means God has examined the evidence, and rendered a decision based on the evidence, because He found righteousness when He examined the evidence.
Faith is counted as righteousness, so when God examines the evidence, and finds this "righteousness", He justifies us (declares us to be in right standing), and with this we find peace (Ro 5:1).

So what comes first?
Righteousness or faith?

God finds that we have faith....
and He finds that this is what is needed to live a right relationship with God and so He declares us justified.

Christian righteousness is declaring God's righteousness--to bring people into fellowship with Him, by grace through faith, not to convince anyone that we are good or righteous,

No again.
WE MUST BE GOOD.
Isn't this what Jesus taught?
Did He teach that GOD IS GOOD and so we don't need to worry about being good?

See, you're making this much more difficult than it is.
It's actually very simple.

We have to be good FOR GOD,,,,not for men. (although man does end up better for it).

for our glory, to bring people to ourselves. If we bring people to ourselves, it is only because we want to deliver them to God. That is assuming we are already ourselves with God. We are with God because He is righteous.

I try to stick closely to Scripture's language.

I think it's good to stick close to scriptural language....
But we aren't with God because HE IS RIGHTEOUS...
we're with God because WE ARE RIGHTEOUS.

I think we need to stop saying that God is going to do everything for us as if we have no part in our salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yep, every act of obedience men do in the Gospel, including the first act of repenting from sins and turning to God (Ro 2:4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?), is an act of God, not "a righteousness of my own", and brings glory to the One Who works it, to prove His goodness and kindness, nothing of or about ourselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by "act of God" or "One Who works it" but my point is that those who obey God's commands (repent and be baptized) are the ones who are working God's righteousness therefore it can be said God is working in them for they are obeying God's commands. On the other hand, those who refuse to obey God's righteous commands in repenting and being baptized then it can be said God is not working in them.

Since God's commands are righteousness (Psa 119:172) and God commands men to repent and be baptized to have sins forgiven, those who obey God are then "working righteousness" (Acts 10:35)... they are working God's righteous commands. Here's the issue....there are those who substitute "faith alone" or "grace alone" in remitting sins or claim saying a sinner's prayer remits sin, they are thereby substituting their "own righteousness" in place of obeying God's righteousness in repenting and being baptized.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm not sure what you mean by "act of God" or "One Who works it" but my point is that those who obey God's commands (repent and be baptized) are the ones who are working God's righteousness therefore it can be said God is working in them for they are obeying God's commands. On the other hand, those who refuse to obey God's righteous commands in repenting and being baptized then it can be said God is not working in them.

Or God is working but they're not obeying (Pp 2:12,13).

Since God's commands are righteousness (Psa 119:172) and God commands men to repent and be baptized to have sins forgiven, those who obey God are then "working righteousness" (Acts 10:35)... they are working God's righteous commands. Here's the issue....there are those who substitute "faith alone" or "grace alone" in remitting sins or claim saying a sinner's prayer remits sin, they are thereby substituting their "own righteousness" in place of obeying God's righteousness in repenting and being baptized.

Well to be fair they still baptized they just disagree on what it does.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Or God is working but they're not obeying (Pp 2:12,13).

Hi

Phil 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Their having "always obeyed" hence it can be said God was working in them. SInce God commands repentance and baptism for remission of sin, yet a person refuses to repent and be baptized then how can it be said God is working in that person who is living in direct defiance to God's will?

Well to be fair they still baptized they just disagree on what it does.

Both verbs "repent" and "be baptized" are imperatives and joined by the conjunction 'and'. The fact they are both commanded, if for no other reason, makes them both necessary in working God's righteousness and having sins remitted. Therefore neither are an option and the conjunction 'and' makes them of equal importance and necessity in working God's righteousness thereby making faith only-grace only-reciting a "sinner's prayer" impossible in obtaining forgiveness of sins. Faith only-grace only-sinner's prayer is man trying to save himself by his OWN hand, by his OWN plan, by his OWN righteousness

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure what you mean by "act of God" or "One Who works it" but my point is that those who obey God's commands (repent and be baptized) are the ones who are working God's righteousness therefore it can be said God is working in them for they are obeying God's commands. On the other hand, those who refuse to obey God's righteous commands in repenting and being baptized then it can be said God is not working in them.

Since God's commands are righteousness (Psa 119:172) and God commands men to repent and be baptized to have sins forgiven, those who obey God are then "working righteousness" (Acts 10:35)... they are working God's righteous commands. Here's the issue....there are those who substitute "faith alone" or "grace alone" in remitting sins or claim saying a sinner's prayer remits sin, they are thereby substituting their "own righteousness" in place of obeying God's righteousness in repenting and being baptized.

I agree with your last sentence.
Which is exactly what Paul was teaching against, and also Jesus of course.

But I wish someone would explain to me what you all mean by God's righteousness.

What does righteous mean to you?

This should not be a difficult conversation but indeed it is.

 

[GracePeace]

Hi

Phil 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Their having "always obeyed" hence it can be said God was working in them. SInce God commands repentance and baptism for remission of sin, yet a person refuses to repent and be baptized then how can it be said God is working in that person who is living in direct defiance to God's will?

1. Matthew 25 shows a lazy servant from whom God strips the "measure of faith" He had sowed into him--God was working, but the servant was lazy.
2. I don't know a single Christian who says they refuse to be baptized, they only disagree on what baptism actually does.

Both verbs "repent" and "be baptized" are imperatives and joined by the conjunction 'and'. The fact they are both commanded, if for no other reason, makes them both necessary in working God's righteousness and having sins remitted. Therefore neither are an option and the conjunction 'and' makes them of equal importance and necessity in working God's righteousness thereby making faith only-grace only-reciting a "sinner's prayer" impossible in obtaining forgiveness of sins. Faith only-grace only-sinner's prayer is man trying to save himself by his OWN hand, by his OWN plan, by his OWN righteousness

Cornelius only believed, and he received the gift of the Spirit, which was a certification that he was already "in the Son", because of keeping God's command to believe (1 Jn 3:23,24)--but I don't want this discussion to turn in to a discussion on baptism, salvation, etc. Please do not take this any further.

 

[GracePeace]

I agree with your last sentence.
Which is exactly what Paul was teaching against, and also Jesus of course.

But I wish someone would explain to me what you all mean by God's righteousness.

What does righteous mean to you?

This should not be a difficult conversation but indeed it is.

I think you're already walking in God's righteousness by the fact that you are walking in your convictions (Ro 14:5,23).

These distinctions are only important for people who are reading very closely and who are wondering what the requirements are because Paul says salvation is by faith not works, but then seems to say things contrary to that.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't know what's so difficult.
God gave us a way to save our souls.
Jesus explained HOW we do this.
Paul was writing to Jews that understood about THE LAW....

Seems pretty simple to me:
A person believes in God
And obeys His rules and regulations.

It's up to US to obey....it's not up to Jesus.
Jesus already obeyed God Father and did what He was supposed to do.


Whatever works a man does apart from knowing God are dead works.
James made this very clear.
Works do not save a person....this is exactly what it means.
Works without faith are dead works.
Faith without works is dead faith.
James 2:26

So, a person that does works - whatever they may be - but has no faith in God cannot be righteous.
He cannot be RIGHT WITH GOD since he does not have faith in God.



No.
We are righteous by our own works.
The NT refers to OUR works AFTER we have faith...
Jesus does not do the works for us.

You mentioned Romans 10:3
First of all, Romans 10 is addressing the salvation of the Jews....corporate salvation.

Second...what do you think it means?
God made provision for mankind's salvation...
We have to follow HIS rules not the rules WE make up.
The Jews were making up their own rules as to how to be saved.
It states that CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW.
Following rules and regulations WITH NO FAITH will save no one and the Jews could not or did not adhere
to the NEW way - the way of faith and grace - the way Jesus taught.

The Law was not sufficient and thus we must depend on the New Covenant.
This is all Paul meant.

We cannot create our own righteousness....
but must follow God's law in order to be righteous.



The above has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
Romans 2 is discussing those that did not KNOW God even existed but still followed their conscience...
It's like Romans 1:19-21.
Different topic, IMHO.

OK
I think we're throwing around the word righteous/righteousness here and I don't think we're using it the same way.

Here's what it means:

Dikaiosune, or righteousness, means living in right relationship with God, other people, and all creation. We act with righteousness when we live justly, honestly, and faithfully according to God's instruction.

Now....
WHO does the living in right relationship with God?
God?
or us?


So what comes first?
Righteousness or faith?

God finds that we have faith....
and He finds that this is what is needed to live a right relationship with God and so He declares us justified.




No again.
WE MUST BE GOOD.
Isn't this what Jesus taught?
Did He teach that GOD IS GOOD and so we don't need to worry about being good?

See, you're making this much more difficult than it is.
It's actually very simple.

We have to be good FOR GOD,,,,not for men. (although man does end up better for it).



I think it's good to stick close to scriptural language....
But we aren't with God because HE IS RIGHTEOUS...
we're with God because WE ARE RIGHTEOUS.

I think we need to stop saying that God is going to do everything for us as if we have no part in our salvation.

It's OK.

If you don't find the conversation helpful, you don't need to venture in to it.

I think you're already walking in God's righteousness, not your own, by sticking with your convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23).

There's no need to get involved in the discussion because it may not help you, but confuse you, as it confused me.