Justified by Works

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GracePeace

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Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 2:8.9
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek
;

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 6:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin
(justified), ye became the servants of righteousness.


Obedience to God's will is man's role in being saved for those who "obey not" shall not see life, be in flaming fire, be in tribulation and anguish.
Obedience to God is nowhere ever condemned nor ever called a work of merit.
Yeah, if you obey, that's God's righteousness; if not, that's your own unrighteousness (even if it is "righteousness of your own").

Anything that is not of faith is sin, and you're condemned for sinning, but whatever is of faith is God/God's righteousness/grace, not you/your righteousness/works (Ro 1:17,14:5,23)
 

GracePeace

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Paul doesn't actually say that. You are extrapolating to a faulty conclusion.

Again, I ask you how much of the law is required to be justified?

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Therefore if you have failed in just one single point then you are not a doer of the law. Only if you keep the law perfectly are you a doer of the law.
Paul says "doers of the Law" will be justified, and repaid eternal life, and then cites Gentile believers as "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27); those who serve not in the oldness of the Letter of the Law but in newness of the Spirit of Grace fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (Ro 8:4). The Gentile believers are fulfilling the righteous requirement of the Law by dint of the Spirit writing God's Law in their hearts, in accordance with the promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34), so they, Paul says, qualify as "doers of the Law".
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Yeah, if you obey, that's God's righteousness; if not, that's your own unrighteousness (even if it is "righteousness of your own").

Anything that is not of faith is sin, and you're condemned for sinning, but whatever is of faith is God/God's righteousness/grace, not you/your righteousness/works (Ro 1:17,14:5,23)
What you post above describes the reason why the Jews were lost.....

Rom 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

---the Jews were following their own traditions rather than being obedient to God's righteousness, they would not submit to God's commands.

--Psa 119:172 ".....for all thy commandments are righteousness." Obeying God's commands is how one does God's righteousness and the Jews would not obey by believing, would not confess with the mouth, would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:9-10,16). Acts 10:34-35 those who "worketh righteousness" (obey God's commands) are the ones accepted with God.

--all works are not the same for in Rom 10:3 there are two different types of works;
1) doing their own righteousness
2) obeying God's righteousness

One work does not save (doing own righteousness) while the other work (obeying God) does save. Therefore the Bible does not teach no work of any kind saves for clearly obedience to God's will, working God's righteousness, does save. It would have saved those Jews.
 

JLB

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Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
"[Christ] came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."
Because walking in faith is not "a righteousness of my own", but God's, justification thereby is "grace not works".

When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.
What's the difference between being under Law and serving others by faith?
Doesn't the Law tell you to love your neighbor?
The Law directs attention to self, to condemn sinfulness.
Looking to the Law/self is turning from Christ; looking to Christ is turning from the Law/self.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God."
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..."
Whose righteousness it is depends on who you behold--self or Christ.
Thus, to serve others by faith Christ authors differs from Law.

Paul had Timothy circumcised, yet he was not an accursed false teacher.
Why? Because Paul did it "because of the Jews in the region".
Paul was serving the Jews, trying to open a door so they might be saved.
Paul's circumcising Timothy proceeded from Christ for the Jews' salvation.
It wasn't because Paul sought justification by Law.

Thus, what makes something a "work", one's own righteousness, is who performs it.
When we walk by faith, that is God performing the righteousness.
"Yet not I but the grace with me."
If we do works, even good ones, without faith, we are condemned (Ro 14:5,23).
Faith is looking to Christ, not self.
God's righteousness, not our works.
"Not I but Christ."

Therefore, to say we're justified by walking in faith is "grace not works".
It's not us.
James taught so.

Paul calls marriage or celibacy "each man's gift".
So, man's walking in either of these is his "gift" given by grace--not his "work".
Walking in faith is "the gift of righteousness"--not our works, but God's.

Thus, Ro 2 can say "doers of the Law will be justified" without contradicting "grace not works".
The examples of doers it gives are Gentile believers who walk in God's righteousness by faith.
Walking by faith is not a righteousness of one's own, but God's.

Some claim "works" refers to Jewish practices like circumcision.
"We're not justified by becoming Jews," is their conclusion.
That doesn't work: Ro 3 "by works of Law comes the knowledge of sin".
Ro 7:7 says the fact that coveting is sinful is known by the Law.
So, "works of Law" encompasses the entirety of the Law's commands.

Then how can we be justified by being doers of the Law?
Because the works that justify come from God, as a gift, not self.
That's the difference--God's righteousness or man's righteousness.

So, yes, actually, we are justified, as James says, by walking in faith--and it's not a contradiction of "grace not works".
Paul uses "works" technically.
It seems James is correcting people who've misunderstood Paul.
It seems James uses "works" in a less technical way.

Yes! Amen.

Faith without the action or work of obedience is dead.


Not the works of the law.
Not works that earn a wage.
Not good works.


The work or corresponding act of obedience.

The obedience of faith by which Abraham was justified was he offered his Isaac on the altar... as God commanded.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB
 
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JLB

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When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.

Amen. Paul plainly taught the law of Moses had been removed, nailed to the cross, taken out of the way.
 
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GracePeace

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What you post above describes the reason why the Jews were lost.....

Rom 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

---the Jews were following their own traditions rather than being obedient to God's righteousness, they would not submit to God's commands.

--Psa 119:172 ".....for all thy commandments are righteousness." Obeying God's commands is how one does God's righteousness and the Jews would not obey by believing, would not confess with the mouth, would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:9-10,16). Acts 10:34-35 those who "worketh righteousness" (obey God's commands) are the ones accepted with God.

--all works are not the same for in Rom 10:3 there are two different types of works;
1) doing their own righteousness
2) obeying God's righteousness

One work does not save (doing own righteousness) while the other work (obeying God) does save. Therefore the Bible does not teach no work of any kind saves for clearly obedience to God's will, working God's righteousness, does save. It would have saved those Jews.
Yeah cause my own righteousness goes toward proving/establishing my own goodness and acceptability and praiseworthiness, whereas Paul says "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners [not good--like the tax collector Lk 18]," regarding God's righteousness whereby He has proven and is proving His goodness.
 
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GracePeace

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Yes! Amen.

Faith without the action or work of obedience is dead.


Not the works of the law.
Not works that earn a wage.
Not good works.


The work or corresponding act of obedience.

The obedience of faith by which Abraham was justified was he offered his Isaac on the altar... as God commanded.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB
Yes, and the first obedience of faith, whereby we ourselves are found sinners, is admitting we have sinned, and going to Him as sinners to be reconciled to Him to know Him by His righteousness in forgiving. All of God's righteousness is by grace through faith, and all of it glorifies God as good not ourselves (ie, so that we might prove we are good and acceptable--we are only acceptable because He is good and acceptable, because He does not remember our sins, He is righteous).
 
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JLB

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Yes, and the first obedience of faith, whereby we ourselves are found sinners, is admitting we have sinned, and going to Him as sinners to be reconciled to Him to know Him by His righteousness in forgiving. All of God's righteousness is by grace through faith, and all of it glorifies God as good not ourselves (ie, so that we might prove we are good and acceptable--we are only acceptable because He is good and acceptable, because He does not remember our sins, He is righteous).

Yes sir. To obey the Gospel is to repent.

Repent means turn to God in submission to Him as Lord.

The way we obey the Gospel commands to repent is to confess Jesus as LORD.

  • For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Israel Rejects the Gospel
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:9-17
 
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GracePeace

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But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:9-17
Yes, "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness." Ro 10:3

They're still trying to prove they are good so God will accept them because they're good, instead of submitting to God's righteousness whereby they would be proven NOT GOOD ("we were proven sinners"), and yet accepted, because God is good and righteous and forgives.

Thereafter, what we do is to prove His goodness, not that we are good in any way, though seeking to persuade others that He is good and righteous LOOKS like we are good when it's Him/His goodness "from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17).
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Yeah cause my own righteousness goes toward proving/establishing my own goodness and acceptability and praiseworthiness, whereas Paul says "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners [not good--like the tax collector Lk 18]," regarding God's righteousness whereby He has proven and is proving His goodness.
This means, for example, when God commands man to repent and be baptized for remission of sins (justified) (Acts 2:38), obedience by repenting and submitting to baptism is doing God's righteousness since it's God's command. Therefore repenting and being baptized is not one doing his own righteousness since Acts 2:38 is not an invention derived from man's own ideas.
 

GracePeace

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This means, for example, when God commands man to repent and be baptized for remission of sins (justified) (Acts 2:38), obedience by repenting and submitting to baptism is doing God's righteousness since it's God's command. Therefore repenting and being baptized is not one doing his own righteousness since Acts 2:38 is not an invention derived from man's own ideas.
Yep, every act of obedience men do in the Gospel, including the first act of repenting from sins and turning to God (Ro 2:4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?), is an act of God, not "a righteousness of my own", and brings glory to the One Who works it, to prove His goodness and kindness, nothing of or about ourselves.
 

Grailhunter

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The misunderstandings regarding works

As used in the New Testament, as a whole the term works can be misunderstood. And the concept of Law as defined by the Old Testament does not exist in Christianity. The Law failed, there were 613 Mosaic Laws and that was still not enough to cover all situations and acts of wrong. The Laws could not develop a relationship between God and His people because if they broke one you were out. They could sacrifice animals but that only appeased God’s wrath, but not get forgiveness or salvation, because For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

The teachings of Christ and the Apostles have a spirit and an overall intent for good that covers billions of situations, something that the Law could not do. Something that we can apply to our lives to do the best we can do and even learn along the way in our walk with Christ without fear of losing our relationship with God because we error a little here and there.

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works
This is not what the scriptures say but it is what a lot of people remember and it is how many apply Christianity to their lives and to the Commandment that we should love one another, as well as the responsibilities of Christians ….Which is why some are resistant to my motto to Be good and do good.

The scripture actually says…
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Romans 3:18

This scripture is actually referring to works as the observance of the Mosaic Law. And this leads to a curse for Christians that try…..but that is another topic. But again, This scripture is actually referring to the observance of the Mosaic Law not Good Deeds.

I have a long essay on this but the bottom line …. We are not saved by Good Deeds but we can go to Hell for not doing them. The Sheep received eternal life and the Goats…the Goats went to Hell. Matthew 25:31-46 Saved is a moment in time, from there we workout our Salvation with fear and trembling....Philippians 2:12...to appear in the before Christ to receive judgment ….for what we have done….For the good we have done…. Eternal reward for the good we have done or to Hell for the bad we have done. 2nd Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

But the case in point is that some people equate the word works to the Good Deeds of Christians. So how did this confusion start?

The Greeks have a few words for works and Good Deeds so you have to look at the context that the words are used in, in the actual scriptures. And do not always relay on the translations….look it up for yourself.

In the beginning of the Protestant reform they were struggling with the Catholic Church’s control and requirements for salvations, and all the rituals as well as some of the Catholic klondike doctrines that still dog Protestantism to this day.

Martin Luther was not alone in the reform effort because other groups had already broke away from the Church. But history shows him as the central figure at the beginning of the reform and the leader that lost control of it and it went from a reform to a fracturing of the Church.

And of course he rejected the Church’s claim of total authority over salvation ….and rightly so. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works…But what was he talking about? Did he believe that Christians should not do good for one another? No. He was talking about the rituals and ceremonies and pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church and you could say adherence to all the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

People think that Luther's central claim is that faith alone justifies (that is, makes a person righteous in the eyes of God) the one who believes in Christ as a result of hearing the gospel. So people took it that Martin was not big on Good Deeds or charity….But actually that could not be more wrong and he wrote on Good Deeds and charity, but history marginalized his interest in such things.

As time went on a lot of Christians did not believe that Christians needed to do anything. And rejected the scriptural beliefs as well as Martin’s teachings that Christians have responsibilities. That there are things we should do for others that pleases the Lord and is part of loving one another….not just lip service.

Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion….Odd terms but descriptive, some of the beliefs that lead to Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved and Universalism. If you do Good Deeds, that means you do not have faith in Christ’s salvation. Good Deeds = Works and It is what you don’t do that makes you right with God. These are concepts that are crept into Christianity after the 17th century. The fact that the topic of “works” in the scriptures is usually referring to the futility of the “works of the Mosaic Law” gets lost.

So now a days you will hear people say that Good Deeds have nothing to do with salvation. And they are right, Good Deeds do not save you….they are right …. sort of. On this topic it would be good to read James 2:14-26 and more importantly about the sheep and the goats Matthew 25:31-46 and pay close attention to the last two verses….. Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either. And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

So does this mean that saved Christians that do not help others will end up in Hell or that Christians that do not help others were not saved to begin with? Either way people that do not have compassion for those that need help and actually do not help them will go to Hell for it and maybe they did not have the Spirit of Christ in them to begin with. It is a serious matter. So it is true that Good Deeds do not save you but not doing Good Deeds can land you in the place of eternal fiery torment forever. That is the fact that gets lost after the 17th century. The do nothing approach to Christianity, where did it come from. Part of it was the scriptures that talked about Christians separating themselves “from the world” So the concept of monasticism and asceticism were born.

Defined here as….
Monasticism have their origins in the New Testament, which describes practices like fasting, celibacy, and withdrawing into the isolation in the desert or wilderness. Even to the point of living in caves, cliffs, and trees and towers most their lives.

Asceticism is a system of spiritual practices that includes self-discipline, self-knowledge, interior vigilance, and developing virtues. Monasticism emerged in the late 3rd century and became an established institution in the Christian church by the 4th century. These people were considered the most pious and most right with God in their era.

The problem with this is that it defeats and ignores a good part of the meaning and spirit of the New Testament….the New Covenant because it is all about “self” These people did nothing for anybody but themselves….they were only concerned with the advancement of their own souls to Heaven. Some of the most well known Christian leaders made no effort to actual apply Christianity in their lives and the lives of others, other than the concern for their own salvation….celebacy….no families….and isolation.

Protestantism rejected the concepts of monasticism and asceticism but still it was about self. Not being the light to the world and did exactly what Christ said not to do….They but the lamp under a bushel basket. So they developed a bunch of man-made sins and Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion was born. Rightness was defined by what you didn’t do….that you did not sin against the man-made sins like sex, drinking, smoking, gambling, dancing, playing card or dice games etc. This replaced monasticism and asceticism in defining piety. But Lazinessism eventually worked against them because over time people did not want to go to church….works! To much work and it fell into the category of the dreaded “works” column. The early Christians risked their lives to gather and worship the Lord….now a days a lot of Christians do not even try. And the Christian life was not about doing anything, mostly not doing anything. And the application of Christianity became like a club….and you sign up and don’t do the man-made sins, and you are good to go.

The truth is….Accepting Yeshua as your savior and Acts 2:38 is only the first step in a long Journey from there you workout your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 The Way….the way of life, the way to Heaven.

Christ would much prefer that you exhaust yourself doing good. And if you stumbled along the way He would pick you up, pat the dust off and send you on your way because He is pleased with what you are doing. And in the end the conversation with Christ will be pleasant.

So love God and love one another and obey God and go to church and stand with other Christians and worship the Lord and give to the church and charity and certainly help those you can and those that Christ places in your path and you will gather riches in heaven. Stay away from condemnation and gossip.

Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
 

GracePeace

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The misunderstandings regarding works

As used in the New Testament, as a whole the term works can be misunderstood. And the concept of Law as defined by the Old Testament does not exist in Christianity. The Law failed, there were 613 Mosaic Laws and that was still not enough to cover all situations and acts of wrong. The Laws could not develop a relationship between God and His people because if they broke one you were out. They could sacrifice animals but that only appeased God’s wrath, but not get forgiveness or salvation, because For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

The teachings of Christ and the Apostles have a spirit and an overall intent for good that covers billions of situations, something that the Law could not do. Something that we can apply to our lives to do the best we can do and even learn along the way in our walk with Christ without fear of losing our relationship with God because we error a little here and there.

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works
This is not what the scriptures say but it is what a lot of people remember and it is how many apply Christianity to their lives and to the Commandment that we should love one another, as well as the responsibilities of Christians ….Which is why some are resistant to my motto to Be good and do good.

The scripture actually says…
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Romans 3:18

This scripture is actually referring to works as the observance of the Mosaic Law. And this leads to a curse for Christians that try…..but that is another topic. But again, This scripture is actually referring to the observance of the Mosaic Law not Good Deeds.

I have a long essay on this but the bottom line …. We are not saved by Good Deeds but we can go to Hell for not doing them. The Sheep received eternal life and the Goats…the Goats went to Hell. Matthew 25:31-46 Saved is a moment in time, from there we workout our Salvation with fear and trembling....Philippians 2:12...to appear in the before Christ to receive judgment ….for what we have done….For the good we have done…. Eternal reward for the good we have done or to Hell for the bad we have done. 2nd Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

But the case in point is that some people equate the word works to the Good Deeds of Christians. So how did this confusion start?

The Greeks have a few words for works and Good Deeds so you have to look at the context that the words are used in, in the actual scriptures. And do not always relay on the translations….look it up for yourself.

In the beginning of the Protestant reform they were struggling with the Catholic Church’s control and requirements for salvations, and all the rituals as well as some of the Catholic klondike doctrines that still dog Protestantism to this day.

Martin Luther was not alone in the reform effort because other groups had already broke away from the Church. But history shows him as the central figure at the beginning of the reform and the leader that lost control of it and it went from a reform to a fracturing of the Church.

And of course he rejected the Church’s claim of total authority over salvation ….and rightly so. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works…But what was he talking about? Did he believe that Christians should not do good for one another? No. He was talking about the rituals and ceremonies and pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church and you could say adherence to all the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

People think that Luther's central claim is that faith alone justifies (that is, makes a person righteous in the eyes of God) the one who believes in Christ as a result of hearing the gospel. So people took it that Martin was not big on Good Deeds or charity….But actually that could not be more wrong and he wrote on Good Deeds and charity, but history marginalized his interest in such things.

As time went on a lot of Christians did not believe that Christians needed to do anything. And rejected the scriptural beliefs as well as Martin’s teachings that Christians have responsibilities. That there are things we should do for others that pleases the Lord and is part of loving one another….not just lip service.

Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion….Odd terms but descriptive, some of the beliefs that lead to Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved and Universalism. If you do Good Deeds, that means you do not have faith in Christ’s salvation. Good Deeds = Works and It is what you don’t do that makes you right with God. These are concepts that are crept into Christianity after the 17th century. The fact that the topic of “works” in the scriptures is usually referring to the futility of the “works of the Mosaic Law” gets lost.

So now a days you will hear people say that Good Deeds have nothing to do with salvation. And they are right, Good Deeds do not save you….they are right …. sort of. On this topic it would be good to read James 2:14-26 and more importantly about the sheep and the goats Matthew 25:31-46 and pay close attention to the last two verses….. Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either. And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

So does this mean that saved Christians that do not help others will end up in Hell or that Christians that do not help others were not saved to begin with? Either way people that do not have compassion for those that need help and actually do not help them will go to Hell for it and maybe they did not have the Spirit of Christ in them to begin with. It is a serious matter. So it is true that Good Deeds do not save you but not doing Good Deeds can land you in the place of eternal fiery torment forever. That is the fact that gets lost after the 17th century. The do nothing approach to Christianity, where did it come from. Part of it was the scriptures that talked about Christians separating themselves “from the world” So the concept of monasticism and asceticism were born.

Defined here as….
Monasticism have their origins in the New Testament, which describes practices like fasting, celibacy, and withdrawing into the isolation in the desert or wilderness. Even to the point of living in caves, cliffs, and trees and towers most their lives.

Asceticism is a system of spiritual practices that includes self-discipline, self-knowledge, interior vigilance, and developing virtues. Monasticism emerged in the late 3rd century and became an established institution in the Christian church by the 4th century. These people were considered the most pious and most right with God in their era.

The problem with this is that it defeats and ignores a good part of the meaning and spirit of the New Testament….the New Covenant because it is all about “self” These people did nothing for anybody but themselves….they were only concerned with the advancement of their own souls to Heaven. Some of the most well known Christian leaders made no effort to actual apply Christianity in their lives and the lives of others, other than the concern for their own salvation….celebacy….no families….and isolation.

Protestantism rejected the concepts of monasticism and asceticism but still it was about self. Not being the light to the world and did exactly what Christ said not to do….They but the lamp under a bushel basket. So they developed a bunch of man-made sins and Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion was born. Rightness was defined by what you didn’t do….that you did not sin against the man-made sins like sex, drinking, smoking, gambling, dancing, playing card or dice games etc. This replaced monasticism and asceticism in defining piety. But Lazinessism eventually worked against them because over time people did not want to go to church….works! To much work and it fell into the category of the dreaded “works” column. The early Christians risked their lives to gather and worship the Lord….now a days a lot of Christians do not even try. And the Christian life was not about doing anything, mostly not doing anything. And the application of Christianity became like a club….and you sign up and don’t do the man-made sins, and you are good to go.

The truth is….Accepting Yeshua as your savior and Acts 2:38 is only the first step in a long Journey from there you workout your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 The Way….the way of life, the way to Heaven.

Christ would much prefer that you exhaust yourself doing good. And if you stumbled along the way He would pick you up, pat the dust off and send you on your way because He is pleased with what you are doing. And in the end the conversation with Christ will be pleasant.

So love God and love one another and obey God and go to church and stand with other Christians and worship the Lord and give to the church and charity and certainly help those you can and those that Christ places in your path and you will gather riches in heaven. Stay away from condemnation and gossip.

Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
The way to bring clarity to the issue is to focus on the heart of the issue : we are not justified by a righteousness of our own (works), but by God's righteousness (grace and faith), and the life we live after having been proven sinners while seeking to be justified by God's righteousness, is to be lived by the same grace and faith not to make God accept us, but because we are accepted, and living by faith (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) is to extend grace and faith to others (both saved and unsaved).
 

Grailhunter

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The way to bring clarity to the issue is to focus on the heart of the issue : we are not justified by a righteousness of our own (works), but by God's righteousness (grace and faith), and the life we live after having been proven sinners while seeking to be justified by God's righteousness, is to be lived by the same grace and faith not to make God accept us, but because we are accepted, and living by faith (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) is to extend grace and faith to others (both saved and unsaved).

Living by faith and obeying the Word of God.
Love God and love one another.
Be good and do good.

You can believe, you can have faith, but if it is not applyed to how you live, your faith is dead.

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:14-17


Christianity is not a club you sign on to and then go on about your business. If it does not change you, you are still dead in your sins.
Faith means you emulate Christ and apply Christianity to your life.

You worship God and fellowship with Christians and stand together and worship Him in church. There maybe such a thing as an armchair quarterback but not an armchair Christian.
 

GracePeace

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Living by faith and obeying the Word of God.
Love God and love one another.
Be good and do good.

You can believe, you can have faith, but if it is not applyed to how you live, your faith is dead.

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:14-17


Christianity is not a club you sign on to and then go on about your business. If it does not change you, you are still dead in your sins.
Faith means you emulate Christ and apply Christianity to your life.

You worship God and fellowship with Christians and stand together and worship Him in church. There maybe such a thing as an armchair quarterback but not an armchair Christian.
Romans 1
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Romans 14
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

So, again, grace and faith are God's righteousness, so that the righteousness we walk in as believers is not "a righteousness of our own" (works), and its aim is to bring salvation to unbelievers and to edify believers, not to prove our goodness to God to make God accept us, because God's righteousness already established we are not good (Ro 10:3; Gal 2:17), and that God is good.
 

MatthewG

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Romans 1
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Romans 14
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

So, again, grace and faith are God's righteousness, so that the righteousness we walk in as believers is not a righteousness of our own (works), and its aim is to bring salvation to unbelievers and to edify believers, not to prove our goodness to God to make God accept us, because God's righteousness already established we are not good, and that God is good.
That’s right.



@Grailhunter

Every person reaps what they sow even in the face of knowledge. “Yahavah isn’t mocked, nor does he play favorites.”
 

Grailhunter

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Romans 1
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Romans 14
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

So, again, grace and faith are God's righteousness, so that the righteousness we walk in as believers is not "a righteousness of our own" (works), and its aim is to bring salvation to unbelievers and to edify believers, not to prove our goodness to God to make God accept us, because God's righteousness already established we are not good (Ro 10:3; Gal 2:17), and that God is good.
Sound good, but a Christian assassin is going to hell....His faith may have saved him but his actions sent him to Hell. Saved is an instant in time....you have a whole life to do good or bad and at the end you will be judged accordingly.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10

You can sin your way to Hell and you can do nothing your way to Hell.
 

GracePeace

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Sound good, but a Christian assassin is going to hell....His faith may have saved him but his actions sent him to Hell. Saved is an instant in time....you have a whole life to do good or bad and at the end you will be judged accordingly.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10

You can sin your way to Hell and you can do nothing your way to Hell.
Yeah, the discussion is on "Justification by Works", and the need to distinguish between "God's righteousness" we walk in by faith, and why and how it is that it is not "a righteousness of my own" aka "works".


If there is a Christian who is a murderer, he is not abiding in God's righteousness by grace through faith--obviously, "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him". Murder does not prove God's righteousness.
 

Grailhunter

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Yeah, the discussion is on "Justification by Works", and the need to distinguish between "God's righteousness" we walk in by faith, and why and how it is that it is not "a righteousness of my own" aka "works".


If there is a Christian who is a murderer, he is not abiding in God's righteousness by grace through faith--obviously, "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him". Murder does not prove God's righteousness.

I am not sure if you can get it or not. No one is saying we are saved by our own righteousness! No one is saying that we are Justified by our own "works." But as a Christian we should strive to be righteous. If you are not applying Christian teachings to you life, you are lost. Faith in Christ puts you in the saved category but you can sin your way to Hell and if you do not help others you can go to Hell. Love one another does not mean lip service.

Once Saved Always Saved is the doctrine of Satan.
 

GracePeace

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I am not sure if you can get it or not. No one is saying we are saved by our own righteousness! No one is saying that we are Justified by our own "works." But as a Christian we should strive to be righteous. If you are not applying Christian teachings to you life, you are lost. Faith in Christ puts you in the saved category but you can sin your way to Hell and if you do not help others you can go to Hell. Love one another does not mean lip service.

Once Saved Always Saved is the doctrine of Satan.
I'm always striving to understand Christianity better--that's the reason I started this thread! LOL

1. I have asserted that Christians who do not walk in faith are not remaining in God's righteousness, and will not be justified at the Judgment (Ro 2:6-16). Did you disagree with that?
2. I have asserted that, at the same time, there is a need to distinguish, so as to avoid confusion, that the righteousness Christians walk in is not a righteousness of their own (works), but God's righteousness (grace and faith). Did you disagree with that? We are speaking of God's righteousness, not our own, yet, in speaking of God's righteousness, we ourselves are righteous.
 
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