Justified by Works

[GracePeace]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

Paul distinguishes between faith and works, so, no, what you are asserting is incoherent.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul distinguishes between faith and works, so, no, what you are asserting is incoherent.

Paul never said Faith /believing are conditions either.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul never said Faith /believing are conditions either.

"Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27) means "God requires you to believe", hence the phrase "obedience of faith" (ro 1:5), and "faith is counted as righteousness" (I did the thing God wanted me to do") (Ro 4:5).

Not sure in what corner of the internet this is supposed to be "controversial". Who actually denies this?

 

[brightfame52]

"Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27) means "God requires you to believe", hence the phrase "obedience of faith" (ro 1:5), and "faith is counted as righteousness" (I did the thing God wanted me to do") (Ro 4:5).

Not sure in what corner of the internet this is supposed to be "controversial". Who actually denies this?

See if you been paying attention, you would know that Im speaking about making anything you do as conditions to get saved or Justified before God, its work and condemned by God.

 

[GracePeace]

See if you been paying attention, you would know that Im speaking about making anything you do as conditions to get saved or Justified before God, its work and condemned by God.

Well, yes, it is a "condition" that you believe to be saved--and Hebrews even warns about falling away from the faith after having already believed (Heb 3:5-19).

 

[brightfame52]

Well, yes, it is a "condition" that you believe to be saved--and Hebrews even warns about falling away from the faith after having already believed (Heb 3:5-19).

Okay then you advocating Justification by your works, thats a cursed Gospel

 

[GracePeace]

Okay then you advocating Justification by your works, thats a cursed Gospel

The Law never said "believe in Christ", it said "do this good thing, don't do that bad thing" (as it is "the knowledge of good and evil"), so "faith in Christ" doesn't fall under the category of a "work" of the Law--and, again, to this point, Paul distinguishes between "faith" and "works", so your view is incoherent.

But, yeah, we seem to diverge on this point. I can accept that.

 

[brightfame52]

The Law never said "believe in Christ", it said "do this good thing, don't do that bad thing" (as it is "the knowledge of good and evil"), so "faith in Christ" doesn't fall under the category of a "work" of the Law--and, again, to this point, Paul distinguishes between "faith" and "works", so your view is incoherent.

But, yeah, we seem to diverge on this point. I can accept that.

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

 

[GracePeace]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

"Believe" is a "command", but it is not a "command" of the Law, so, no, "believing" cannot be a "work" of the Law, it is just how grace saves--if you want to disagree, again, it renders Paul incoherent when he contrasts "works" and "faith" (Ro 3:27, 4:4,5), which "righteousness of faith" is defined as God's righteousness "apart from the Law" (Ro 3:21,22), so, again, no, it cannot be a "work" of the Law when someone "obeys" the "command" to "believe".

The Law of Moses, whereby a man, by his righteous works, may have a righteousness of his own, is the Old Covenant; the Law of Faith, whereby a man, by faith, may have God's righteousness, is the New Covenant : faith cannot pertain to "a righteousness of my own", so it cannot be a "work", because faith pertains to the New Covenant of God's righteousness, not to the Old Covenant of man's own righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

"Believe" is a "command", but it is not a "command" of the Law, so, no, "believing" cannot be a "work" of the Law, it is just how grace saves--if you want to disagree, again, it renders Paul incoherent when he contrasts "works" and "faith" (Ro 3:27, 4:4,5), which "righteousness of faith" is defined as God's righteousness "apart from the Law" (Ro 3:21,22), so, again, no, it cannot be a "work" of the Law when someone "obeys" the "command" to "believe".

The Law of Moses, whereby a man, by his righteous works, may have a righteousness of his own, is the Old Covenant; the Law of Faith, whereby a man, by faith, may have God's righteousness, is the New Covenant : faith cannot pertain to "a righteousness of my own", so it cannot be a "work", because faith pertains to the New Covenant of God's righteousness, not to the Old Covenant of man's own righteousness.

Believing is something you do, an act performed by the person, so if that act you do is the basis for God justifying you, or saving you, its works salvation, condemned by the scripture.

 

[Behold]

So, yes, actually, we are justified,

The born again are "justified" by The Cross of Christ.

This is why Jesus said... "no person comes to the Father, but by (through) me"...

A.) "by Me" "Through me" = The Sacrifice of Jesus on THE Cross.

We are not saved by Faith, we are saved by JESUS.

So, never put your faith in faith.......only put your Faith in Christ, and then God will accept that faith, the instant you give it, as this...

"our FAITH is counted by God as (Christ's) Righteousness".

And that happens ONCE........and the proof is that the person who has given their faith to God, is now Born again.

Being Born again, is the only PROOF of Christianity, and the only Proof that you've given God your faith.

 

[Taken]

Justified by Works

Justified standing alone is BROAD.
Works standing alone is BROAD.

Specific examples…

Work / effort to Hear Gods Word…
Justified to receive measures of Faith (gift) from God.

Work / decision to Believe Gods Word…
Justified to receive Blessings From God.

Work / effort to CONTINUE Hearing Gods Word…
Justified to CONTINUE receiving increase of FAITH (gift) from God.

Work / decision / effort to call on the Lord and “heartfully/ ie Truthfully”, DECLARE to the Lord, the man’s BELIEF IN the Lord God.
Justified to Receive SALVATION of mans soul, (everlasting Gift), from the Lord.

The “works” of a man ARE SPECIFIC.
The “justifications” ARE SPECIFIC, per the works.

The “blessings”, given CAN be halted….
The “gifts GIVEN” are Permanent.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MatthewG]

You're always justified by the works that Christ Jesus does through you when you give the due credit.
You also make the choice though at the moment, do I react by my flesh, or do I choose to react by the holy spirit/spirit of Christ.

Simple really. People just really over look it when they always are battling Paul and James. That's not in harmony with the spirit, it's the flesh desiring to justify one way over the other.

James 2.


The work is "love." You can say love is the action that justifies ones faith. Of course that love is coming from the spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit of Yahavah.
It's just a confirmation of your faith, working in action, to love God and love others.

 

[GracePeace]

Believing is something you do, an act performed by the person, so if that act you do is the basis for God justifying you, or saving you, its works salvation, condemned by the scripture.

I stand by my arguments.

 

[JBO]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Is that promoting justification by works?

 

[JohnDB]

Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
"[Christ] came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."
Because walking in faith is not "a righteousness of my own", but God's, justification thereby is "grace not works".

When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.
What's the difference between being under Law and serving others by faith?
Doesn't the Law tell you to love your neighbor?
The Law directs attention to self, to condemn sinfulness.
Looking to the Law/self is turning from Christ; looking to Christ is turning from the Law/self.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God."
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..."
Whose righteousness it is depends on who you behold--self or Christ.
Thus, to serve others by faith Christ authors differs from Law.

Paul had Timothy circumcised, yet he was not an accursed false teacher.
Why? Because Paul did it "because of the Jews in the region".
Paul was serving the Jews, trying to open a door so they might be saved.
Paul's circumcising Timothy proceeded from Christ for the Jews' salvation.
It wasn't because Paul sought justification by Law.

Thus, what makes something a "work", one's own righteousness, is who performs it.
When we walk by faith, that is God performing the righteousness.
"Yet not I but the grace with me."
If we do works, even good ones, without faith, we are condemned (Ro 14:5,23).
Faith is looking to Christ, not self.
God's righteousness, not our works.
"Not I but Christ."

Therefore, to say we're justified by walking in faith is "grace not works".
It's not us.
James taught so.

Paul calls marriage or celibacy "each man's gift".
So, man's walking in either of these is his "gift" given by grace--not his "work".
Walking in faith is "the gift of righteousness"--not our works, but God's.

Thus, Ro 2 can say "doers of the Law will be justified" without contradicting "grace not works".
The examples of doers it gives are Gentile believers who walk in God's righteousness by faith.
Walking by faith is not a righteousness of one's own, but God's.

Some claim "works" refers to Jewish practices like circumcision.
"We're not justified by becoming Jews," is their conclusion.
That doesn't work: Ro 3 "by works of Law comes the knowledge of sin".
Ro 7:7 says the fact that coveting is sinful is known by the Law.
So, "works of Law" encompasses the entirety of the Law's commands.

Then how can we be justified by being doers of the Law?
Because the works that justify come from God, as a gift, not self.
That's the difference--God's righteousness or man's righteousness.

So, yes, actually, we are justified, as James says, by walking in faith--and it's not a contradiction of "grace not works".
Paul uses "works" technically.
It seems James is correcting people who've misunderstood Paul.
It seems James uses "works" in a less technical way.

Which book was written first?

That right there should tell you more than enough.

2Peter 1:
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

 

[GracePeace]

Which book was written first?

That right there should tell you more than enough.

2Peter 1:
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

Please clarify your point.

 

[JohnDB]

Please clarify your point.

The point is 2Peter 1

Verse 3 right there tells us plainly we have been saved by grace. No wiggle room. God's goodness is his grace.
"But wait there's more"
There's available knowledge and tools for us to use provided by God....because God is good.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 2:8.9
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 6:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin (justified), ye became the servants of righteousness.


Obedience to God's will is man's role in being saved for those who "obey not" shall not see life, be in flaming fire, be in tribulation and anguish.
Obedience to God is nowhere ever condemned nor ever called a work of merit.

 

[GracePeace]

The point is 2Peter 1

Verse 3 right there tells us plainly we have been saved by grace. No wiggle room. God's goodness is his grace.
"But wait there's more"
There's available knowledge and tools for us to use provided by God....because God is good.

Yep, the Jews were "saved" from slavery by the blood of lambs at Passover, but, afterward, became "reprobate" because of sin--Paul says the same could happen to him and all Christians (1 Co 9:27-10:11), despite having already been "saved" by the blood of Christ "our Passover Lamb".