Justified by Works

[GracePeace]

Scripture won't be enough to prove or convince believers in once-saved-always-saved. There's hell testimonies of Christians going there to prove that it's false doctrine.

Well, the documentary does cover Scriptural arguments against OSAS, but it also speaks of the beliefs of the early church--how it was not until the 5th century that anyone believed in OSAS, and the guy who brought it into the Church was Augustine, who used to be a Gnostic, and the Gnostics believed in OSAS. So, basically, all those who believe in OSAS are holding to Gnostic heresy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

00:01:36
"Believers in OSAS invariably take the high ground historically as though they're defending the historic faith. This is incredibly dishonest. That's because before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved. I know of no patristic scholar who disputes that fact."

00:03:22
"The early church fathers actually warned against the idea of OSAS because that doctrine was not found within any Christian churches at the time; it was found among the Gnostics. ... in their refutations of the Gnostics, they would mention how these Gnostics believed that you could never fall away from the faith..."

Why don’t you stick to the word and not all this ideology type teaching

The Roman church ruled the world up until that time. Anyone who believes in Jesus words and security as found in the gospel of John would have to hide underground

It’s funny you use the same arguments the Catholic Church does to promote their heresy

What is it that gets you to hate eternal security in Christ so Much. Why do you not trust God who promised he would change us. Paul was even confident he would And why have you not responded to my post about what justification really is?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ooh! This looks way better than watching couples hunt for Tiny houses

Excuse me? What does?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Scripture won't be enough to prove or convince believers in once-saved-always-saved. There's hell testimonies of Christians going there to prove that it's false doctrine.

Scripture proves eternal security. It will not convince we who trust god to repent and start trusting self?

So what is this an attack believers in God thread?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, the documentary does cover Scriptural arguments against OSAS, but it also speaks of the beliefs of the early church--how it was not until the 5th century that anyone believed in OSAS, and the guy who brought it into the Church was Augustine, who used to be a Gnostic, and the Gnostics believed in OSAS. So, basically, all those who believe in OSAS are holding to Gnostic heresy.

The Catholic Church destroyed any documents that they considered heresy

So we would not expect anything that showed Mary actually had kids that water baptism was not part of the salvation process than any of the hearts according them would be seen

That’s why it is called faith.

A substance if things hoped For (eternal life according g to Paul) the evidence of things not seen

I would hate to stand in front of God and find out I was wrong and use history as my excuse. The Jews did that to Jesus. Why would the gentiles church make the same Mistake

 

[Wynona]

Excuse me? What does?

The documentary GracePeace posted earlier.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The documentary GracePeace posted earlier.

Ok, I thought you meant the discussion. Whew.

I will not watch it though. To me it is propaganda

 

[Wynona]

Ok, I thought you meant the discussion. Whew.

I will not watch it though. To me it is propaganda

That is okay. Im starting to think I need to focus on being more loving in conduct and not just supporting correct head knowledge if the faith. I often value knowledge over love and I see that as a weakness in my faith.

Maybe it might come across fake but I do appreciate the way you've explained some things---especially how your experience of believers finding relief was so different than mine.

So if you never join the "NOSAS" camp, I still will remember your treatment of me because I know how difficult it can be to hear someone out when they just don't seem to get where you're coming from.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is okay. Im starting to think I need to focus on being more loving in conduct and not just supporting correct head knowledge if the faith. I often value knowledge over love and I see that as a weakness in my faith.

Maybe it might come across fake but I do appreciate the way you've explained some things---especially how your experience of believers finding relief was so different than mine.

So if you never join the "NOSAS" camp, I still will remember your treatment of me because I know how difficult it can be to hear someone out when they just don't seem to get where you're coming from.

I think the difference is you do not attack, You do not make it sound like I am lost. Or try to fight, you just share your view and I share mine. And I believe we are both sincere in the way we share to each other.

Thats how it should be.. sadly. It hardly ever happens that way

 

[Wynona]

I think the difference is you do not attack, You do not make it sound like I am lost. Or try to fight, you just share your view and I share mine. And I believe we are both sincere in the way we share to each other.

Thats how it should be.. sadly. It hardly ever happens that way

Thank you. I'm glad you don't feel defensive when I share. I had a lot of church frustration to let go of. My goal is to remain grounded and sincere, even if I am attacked. Jesus loved his enemies too. That doesn't mean they weren't enemies but we are to do good to all.

I don't want Christian love to be some legend we hear about. I want to embody it. And every day is a new day to get it right.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thank you. I'm glad you don't feel defensive when I share. I had a lot of church frustration to let go of. My goal is to remain grounded and sincere, even if I am attacked. Jesus loved his enemies too. That doesn't mean they weren't enemies but we are to do good to all.

The first step here is to understand just because someone disagrees with us does not mean they are attacking us and we have to come out swinging.. I think that us a lot of the issues

I don't want Christian love to be some legend we hear about. I want to embody it. And every day is a new day to get it right.

Amen, me too

 

[Wynona]

The first step here is to understand just because someone disagrees with us does not mean they are attacking us and we have to come out swinging.. I think that us a lot of the issues

I had to realize that. Then I had to just filter out the bad I wanted to say. For a long time Ive just had to not say a whole lot. Now I want to move into saying more good things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I had to realize that. Then I had to just filter out the bad I wanted to say. For a long time Ive just had to not say a whole lot. Now I want to move into saying more good things.

You and I both. Although when someone does act out I am quick to quip right back. Which is probably a flaw

 

[brightfame52]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

 

[GracePeace]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

Or maybe neither of the commands listed in 1 Jn 3:23,24 qualify as "works" : "works" corresponds to "a righteousness of my own", whereas "Grace through faith" corresponds to "the righteousness of God".

Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet not I, but the grace with me", and when the minister preached to the Ephesians, Paul says, "Christ came and preached to you"; "it is no longer I who live but Christ".

So, faith reveals God's righteousness, and walking in faith reveals "God's righteousness from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17)--if it's not us or "our righteousness", it's not "works".

Paul, describing the manner of walking of men, says "each man has his own gift" : the man's manner of walking being his "gift" means it is his grace, not work or debt. It is his gift of righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

@GracePeace

Or maybe neither of the commands listed in 1 Jn 3:23,24 qualify as "works"

Sure they do, they are commands of God, they are obeying the will of God. They are works of Righteousness, which we are forbidden to be saved by Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[GracePeace]

@GracePeace



Sure they do, they are commands of God, they are obeying the will of God. They are works of Righteousness, which we are forbidden to be saved by Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

"Salvation" : the Israelites were "saved" from slavery in Egypt through Passover, and we were "saved" from slavery to satan in his kingdom through "Christ our Passover", yet the Israelites sinned after salvation, and became "reprobates", which Paul says can happen to us (1 Co 9:27 - 1 Co 10:11).

Again : works corresponds to "a righteousness of my own", whereas grace corresponds to "God's righteousness" which God performs, which we are to walk in.

 

[brightfame52]

"Salvation" : the Israelites were "saved" from slavery in Egypt through Passover, and we were "saved" from slavery to satan in his kingdom through "Christ our Passover", yet the Israelites sinned after salvation, and became "reprobates", which Paul says can happen to us (1 Co 9:27 - 1 Co 10:11).

Again : works corresponds to "a righteousness of my own", whereas grace corresponds to "God's righteousness" which God performs, which we are to walk in.

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

 

[GracePeace]

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !

Even if "God commands all men to believe", Paul distinguishes between faith and works, so, no, what you are saying is incoherent.

 

[brightfame52]

Even if "God commands all men to believe", Paul distinguishes between faith and works, so, no, what you are saying is incoherent.

Even if we say that we are Justified by Faith/Believing as an condition before God, we are actually promoting Justification by works. Because believing is a command as is to love one another 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To obey a command, is a work, a law even !