Justification By Works

[Christ4Me]

He said exactly what I said he said.

So why shoudl I read it again. It just continues to prove what I said

Only because the context of the message was never about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

He asked the question. CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM. If he is already saved, the question is nonsensical. Because they would already be saved.

Read it again but this time without reading that errant theology into it but what is being plainly written. \

Can the church's faith in God to provide being issued to the poor, can save the poor or profit the poor when the church fails to lead by example?

This is what the church is not justified nor righteous in doing because they were professing their faith in God's providence to the poor without meeting their immediate needs to the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation and so therefore in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide was dead and that is why the church's faith in God to provide will not "profit" the poor" nor "save" the poor from the elements nor starvation.

Justified means to be declaired righteous (the greek word is a judicial term, which literally means innocent, not guilty etc etc)

James was pointing out that the saved church were guilty of mistreating the poor and they cannot issue their faith in God to provide to the poor when they are not leading by example. The church issued that faith in God to provide to the poor to get out of helping the poor in need of immediate help. And that is why they are not "justified" nor "being in the right" for issuing their faith in God to provide to the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide is dead for why it will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements and starvation.

He even mentioned abraham, Abraham believe God and it was accounted to him as righteousness

James referred to the event regarding Abraham offering Isaac by which before that Abraham had voiced in God to provide and afterwards named that place in regards to that specific faith that requires works in believing that God will provide and He did in the eyes of Isaac in seeing Abraham's faith in God to provide.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

again, A salvation term, to be made right with God..

Not a salvation term nor a saving faith but how we apply faith in God to provide to the poor that we better be leading by example or it is dead in the eyes of the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor if they are about to perish from starvation or/and the elements.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Only because the context of the message was never about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

Yet jesus ver and over spoke of how salvation/eternal life/new birth is based on faith in the one whome God sent, and never about works.

And once again, HE SAID WHAT I SAID HE SAID.

Your ignoring him, not me.

Read it again but this time without reading that errant theology into it but what is being plainly written.

Why don’t you try that.

Its rude to tell people to read it in a way that will get them to see it as you do. ANd claim if they do not see it your way, they see it because of errant theology.

Its also hypocritical to think your right and everyone else is wrong.

Can the church's faith in God to provide being issued to the poor, can save the poor or profit the poor when the church fails to lead by example?

This is what the church is not justified nor righteous in doing because they were professing their faith in God's providence to the poor without meeting their immediate needs to the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation and so therefore in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide was dead and that is why the church's faith in God to provide will not "profit" the poor" nor "save" the poor from the elements nor starvation.

non of this negates what James said.

James was pointing out that the saved church were guilty of mistreating the poor and they cannot issue their faith in God to provide to the poor when they are not leading by example. The church issued that faith in God to provide to the poor to get out of helping the poor in need of immediate help. And that is why they are not "justified" nor "being in the right" for issuing their faith in God to provide to the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide is dead for why it will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements and starvation.

He was speaking to individuals. Not the church. Thats your first mistake. You have mistaken context and who he is talking to.

Look even at the first chapter. He asks each of them to test their faith.

He asked them again, are you hearers of the word only or hearers and doers.

James referred to the event regarding Abraham offering Isaac by which before that Abraham had voiced in God to provide and afterwards named that place in regards to that specific faith that requires works in believing that God will provide and He did in the eyes of Isaac in seeing Abraham's faith in God to provide.

Yes, When Abraham offered Isaac (how long AFTER God said he was accounted of righteous did this act take place?

Abraham proved his faith. To who?

To God? Did God need proof?

Or to abraham??

Abraham became a much greater man of faith after this event took place. That happens to us all when Gods tests our faith.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

And?????

Not a salvation term nor a saving faith but how we apply faith in God to provide to the poor that we better be leading by example or it is dead in the eyes of the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor if they are about to perish from starvation or/and the elements.

Whatever my friend.

You want me to listen to you. Yet you twist the word justified t suit your own belief system?

Sorry my friend. Not buying it

James was talking to a licentious group of individuals. Who took the grace that Paul offered the jews. And went 190 degrees out. They took advantage of it. And thought that all they have to do is call out on the name of God with no true faith r repentance and they are saved/ think they can play the game and be saved.

They were in church. They were sitting people. So they evidently had offices in the church

Yet James said they HAD NO WORKS..

You will be surprised how many people we think are saved will not be with us in heaven, because they has mere belief and not tru saving faith.

james called them to test the our own faith. ets let james works talk to the licentious. And stop trying to twist the words of james to support our own legalistic tendencies, and in doing so make james and paul appose each other

 

[Christ4Me]

Yet jesus ver and over spoke of how salvation/eternal life/new birth is based on faith in the one whome God sent, and never about works.

And once again, HE SAID WHAT I SAID HE SAID.

Seems like we are not understanding each other still.

I believe we are saved since having believed in Jesus Christ as He has said; Believing in Jesus Christ Is How We Are Saved

Its rude to tell people to read it in a way that will get them to see it as you do. ANd claim if they do not see it your way, they see it because of errant theology.

Its also hypocritical to think your right and everyone else is wrong.

non of this negates what James said.

He was speaking to individuals. Not the church. Thats your first mistake. You have mistaken context and who he is talking to.

Look even at the first chapter. He asks each of them to test their faith.

He asked them again, are you hearers of the word only or hearers and doers.

Yes, When Abraham offered Isaac (how long AFTER God said he was accounted of righteous did this act take place?

Abraham proved his faith. To who?

To God? Did God need proof?

Or to abraham??

Abraham became a much greater man of faith after this event took place. That happens to us all when Gods tests our faith.

And?????
Whatever my friend.

You want me to listen to you. Yet you twist the word justified t suit your own belief system?

Sorry my friend. Not buying it

James was talking to a licentious group of individuals. Who took the grace that Paul offered the jews. And went 190 degrees out. They took advantage of it. And thought that all they have to do is call out on the name of God with no true faith r repentance and they are saved/ think they can play the game and be saved.

They were in church. They were sitting people. So they evidently had offices in the church

Yet James said they HAD NO WORKS..

You will be surprised how many people we think are saved will not be with us in heaven, because they has mere belief and not tru saving faith.

james called them to test the our own faith. ets let james works talk to the licentious. And stop trying to twist the words of james to support our own legalistic tendencies, and in doing so make james and paul appose each other

I believe you have lost track of the two sides of this discussion because believers are using James words as proving "saving" faith needs works thus inferring the ones for obtaining salvation.

I say now that James never gave the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Book of James but about how we are to follow Him, not just individually, but as a church as well. The faith of Abraham that James was talking about, was not the one about in Jesus Christ for salvation because it is without works, but when a church issues faith in God to provide to the poor after church service, the church better lead by example for why that requires works.

The faith James referred to Abraham about was his faith in God to provide and he led by example for which the church was not but voicing faith to the poor to get out of helping the poor for why the church's faith will not profit the poor nor save the poor.

 

[Michael Hanson]

I liked how someone pointed it out to me: "Good works don't make a good man, but a good man will do good works."

 

[farouk]

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Romans 3:22)

Salvation is Christ alone. Saved by grace through faith.

@Rudometkin I saw a design which depicted the various solas: by grace alone, though faith alone, etc.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Seems like we are not understanding each other still.

I believe we are saved since having believed in Jesus Christ as He has said; Believing in Jesus Christ Is How We Are Saved



I believe you have lost track of the two sides of this discussion because believers are using James words as proving "saving" faith needs works thus inferring the ones for obtaining salvation.

I say now that James never gave the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Book of James but about how we are to follow Him, not just individually, but as a church as well. The faith of Abraham that James was talking about, was not the one about in Jesus Christ for salvation because it is without works, but when a church issues faith in God to provide to the poor after church service, the church better lead by example for why that requires works.

The faith James referred to Abraham about was his faith in God to provide and he led by example for which the church was not but voicing faith to the poor to get out of helping the poor for why the church's faith will not profit the poor nor save the poor.

Our discussion, unless I have misread, Is that James was not talking to people concerning salvation. Which I disagree with

I agree, he was not telling them the gospel. They already knew the gospel.

His point was to make sure they had true living faith in the gospel. and not mere belief in that gospel. (a dead faith)

Can a claimed faith only save you? James answer is no. They would be lost.

 

[Christ4Me]

Our discussion, unless I have misread, Is that James was not talking to people concerning salvation. Which I disagree with

Okay. I am clear now on what that disagreement is about.

I agree, he was not telling them the gospel. They already knew the gospel.

Okay. In that we are in agreement.

His point was to make sure they had true living faith in the gospel. and not mere belief in that gospel. (a dead faith)

Can a claimed faith only save you? James answer is no. They would be lost.

That is where I disagree with you about.

James was rebuking the church for mistreating the poor.

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

That was not all this church was doing in mistreating the poor. At the end of church service, they were issuing a blessing of the church's faith in God to provide for the poor to the poor to get out of helping the poor without leading by example in the eyes of the poor by meeting their immediate needs of those poor from the bounty collected at church service for the poor that were about to perish from starvation and/or the elements.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is the church's faith in the eyes of the poor that was dead when the church would not lead by example. It is the church's faith that will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor seeing how the church's faith in God to provide for them was dead in the eyes of the poor.

James reference to Abraham's faith in God to provide which he had shared with Isaac confirms that is the faith James was talking about that requires works in the eyes of others that we profess that faith in God to provide.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

The name of that place means "God provides for His servants". That is the kind of faith James was referring to and not the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

The "saving" faith James was referring to, was the church's faith in God to provide for the poor that was not going to profit nor save the poor when the church was not willing to lead by example in meeting their immediate needs that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James was not saying the church was not saved, but the church's faith in God to provide to the poor was not going to save the poor when the church refuses to lead by example.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay. I am clear now on what that disagreement is about.



Okay. In that we are in agreement.



That is where I disagree with you about.

James was rebuking the church for mistreating the poor.

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

That was not all this church was doing in mistreating the poor. At the end of church service, they were issuing a blessing of the church's faith in God to provide for the poor to the poor to get out of helping the poor without leading by example in the eyes of the poor by meeting their immediate needs of those poor from the bounty collected at church service for the poor that were about to perish from starvation and/or the elements.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is the church's faith in the eyes of the poor that was dead when the church would not lead by example. It is the church's faith that will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor seeing how the church's faith in God to provide for them was dead in the eyes of the poor.

James reference to Abraham's faith in God to provide which he had shared with Isaac confirms that is the faith James was talking about that requires works in the eyes of others that we profess that faith in God to provide.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

The name of that place means "God provides for His servants". That is the kind of faith James was referring to and not the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

The "saving" faith James was referring to, was the church's faith in God to provide for the poor that was not going to profit nor save the poor when the church was not willing to lead by example in meeting their immediate needs that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James was not saying the church was not saved, but the church's faith in God to provide to the poor was not going to save the poor when the church refuses to lead by example.

You still do not get it

He said they HAD NO WORKS. He did not say they had some.

He said they CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH. He never said they had faith

And he asked the question. CAN THAT FAITH SAVE YOU.

Secondly, He was not talking to the church. The church was not the problem. It was induviduals within that church. He was directly adressing those who claimed to have faith. But had no works.

Your trying to take a disciplin and calling out of a few select induviduals. And direct it to the whole church.

 

[robert derrick]

Since James was addressing the brethren that believe in Jesus Christ as among the 12 tribes of Israel scattered through out. then they are saved.

James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

James was rebuking the church, hence saved believers, for disrespecting the poor.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

James rebuked the church for another abuse towards the poor like the church's sharing their faith in God to provide for the poor to the poor in getting out of helping the poor. Read it in context and stop applying that to the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

@PinSeeker You may find this of interest.

James was rebuking hearers only, who believe the faith of the Lord that saves is without need of works to be justified by with God.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Loving in word and tongue only was one of two points only, which have to do with being respecter of persons in the faith of the Lord.

The faith in James is that which saves being with works that justify with God.

 

[robert derrick]

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

No man knows the Lord, until he keeps the commandments of the Lord.

No man is saved and justified with God, who knows not the Lord.

 

[robert derrick]

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Until the word is done with the heart and obeyed, no man is begotten of the word in the heart, but remains an unborn hearer only.

Only when the faith is obeyed, does the faith enter into the heart from between the ears, and saves the souls from their sins.

There is no salvation by faith only and apart from justification by works of His righteousness.

No man is born of the word, until he obeys the word. Until then it is hearing only.

 

[Christ4Me]

James was rebuking hearers only, who believe the faith of the Lord that saves is without need of works to be justified by with God.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

But James explained what he was talking about that if the church express faith in God to provide to the poor and yet do not lead by example, then the church's faith to the poor is dead in the eyes of the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements & starvation.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Loving in word and tongue only was one of two points only, which have to do with being respecter of persons in the faith of the Lord.

The faith in James is that which saves being with works that justify with God.

It is the church's faith in God to provide to the poor that was not going to save the poor nor profit the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God was dead by not leading by example. This church's faith in God to provide was not about whether the church is saved or not.

 

[robert derrick]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

But James explained what he was talking about that if the church express faith in God to provide to the poor and yet do not lead by example, then the church's faith to the poor is dead in the eyes of the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements & starvation.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



It is the church's faith in God to provide to the poor that was not going to save the poor nor profit the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God was dead by not leading by example. This church's faith in God to provide was not about whether the church is saved or not.

The faith of our Lord Jesus is the faith that saves, and is the plain subject of Scripture in James.

The question Scripture asks of the faith in James is, Can faith save him?

The question is not, Can faith bless another?

You can reject it all you wish. As I said, you have a unique ability to thread through Scriptures, but in this you are not honestly handling the Word of truth.

 

[robert derrick]

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It is not possible to be just before God, before obeying His word: doing the works of His righteousness with the heart.

Before obeying God, all are judged unjust before God.

 

[robert derrick]

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes. That is why you have Paul saying what he did in regards to how Abraham was justified in the sight of God and that was for believing in Him.

In regards to telling someone like the poor, to have faith in God to provide and yet do not lead by example, that kind of faith requires works which is what James was referring to Abraham & Isaac about in how God will provide for His servants for why he named the place Jehovah-jireh.

However since we are saved, we are to go on to perfection by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House, ( Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) otherwise we can get disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven and become a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) as in left behind to die, but the spirits will be with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation in becoming vessels of wood & earth; the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.

So works does profit the believer but not for salvation, but to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

The danger of not running the race lawfully to obtain eternal salvation is not obtaining eternal salvation, which is only for them that obey Him and run the race lawfully unto the end.

It's called enduring and overcoming temptation unto the end.

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Salvation is obtained. It is obtained at the end of the race not at the beginning. No man obtains and wins the crown of a race at it's beginning.

Trying to believe in obtaining and winning the crown before and apart from obeying Him, is the spiritual wickedness in high places of trying to apply believe that the crown is obtained and won before even beginning the race.

The first step in His race to obtain eternal salvation is obeying Him in the heart, which is the first step in His steps.

Those who believe the lie of being 'gifted' unconditional salvation, merely by 'agreeing' with the gospel, are in the strong delusion of hearers only who never obey God and purify their hearts from the lust of the world.

No heart of lust and unclean hands will ever ascend unto the hill of the Lord, because they haven't even taken the first step to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You might want to study Paul and James more.

Paul emphasizes in all his epistles that we are not justified by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, while James emphasizes we are justified by different type of works than are found in the law of Moses.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him - see verse 21 above.

He believed for many years before being justified.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him.

Not until he did the work and finished it was he justified with God. He was not justified on the way up, nor at the top of the mountain. He was only justified when he did the work of offering up Isaac. Until then he was believing God and seeking to do God's will, but had not yet obeyed God unto the end.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Scripture plainly says he was justified by doing the work, not by believing in God's 'provision' for it.

Unless we learn to read Scripture as it is written, we will never know the truth of what God says, vs what we want to think about the things of God in our own vain imagination.

In this way we have power to cast down vain imaginations of our own minds, by acknowledging plainly what is written, and so discarding what we were imagning about what is written.

In fact, Scripture makes it clear that God justified Abraham as having sacrificed Isaac physically, because God saw in his heart the stroke coming.

 

[robert derrick]

And there are plenty of scriptures that reminds us that we are not saved by any work we have done.

Not by any works we had done as sinners before believing God, but only by works we do and have done of His righteousness from the heart with faith in the heart.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Abraham was justified by the work he had done through faith in the heart.

Until we do the faith with the heart, the faith is not yet in the heart, but remains only between the ears of hearing.

Hearing the gospel and 'agreeing' with it, is not believing and obeying it with the heart.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

We remain servants to sin, until we obey the gospel with the heart, to purify our heart from the lust of the world and cleanse our hands from the sins of the flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

It is not an inconvenience to me, because I can see the truth in His words.

Explain how Jesus can still abide in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13 after denying them for denying Him in 2 Timothy 2:12?

Explain how the vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood and earth, are the ones that did not depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) for why they were denied by Him per Titus 1:16?

Why have those kinds of vessels still in His House? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Him, even in His name. John 1:12-13

Did not Paul testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe the preaching of the cross without water baptism being involved in that process? 1 Corinthians 1:17-21.

The inconvenience truth for you guys is that there is a rest for the people of God in Christ Jesus regarding our salvation ( Hebrews 4:1-3 & Hebrews 4:9-11 ) as we have no part in finishing His work in us ( Philippians 1:6 & 2 Timothy 4:18) .



What is the name of the place that Abraham offered Isaac on the altar? What does that name means? That is the faith in God that James is specifically referring to because the church was disrespecting the poor by voicing the faith in God's Providence to the poor to get out of helping the poor. The church was not voicing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to the poor, but applying faith in God to provide to the poor without really believing in His Providence to the poor to lead by example in the eyes of the poor.

That OP starts out addressing Paul's words and James's words and arrived at the conclusion of nulling and voiding Paul's words when James was not talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which was without works but Paul was.

When you put salvation with works on us to do, then there is no salvation obtained yet because then you can never be assured you did enough, thus faith is made void and the cross of Christ has come to no effect. The Holy Spirit is in you by faith in Jesus Christ testifying that you are saved.

There is only going on to perfection in running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to abide in Him as His disciples to bear fruit and that our joy may be full. Hebrews 12:1-2 Or else the consequence for not abiding in him is to be excommunicated from the Marriage Super in Heaven by being left behind into the bed of the great tribulation. John 15:1-8 & Revelation 2:18-25

because then you can never be assured you did enough

We can always be sure of doing enough by doing whatsoever He commands at all times unto the end.

That will be when enough is enough. Until then it is never enough, but we do as we are able by His power.

One thing is for sure, if we are not obeying Him we are neither saved nor justified by Him.

 

[robert derrick]

Salvation is Christ on the Cross.
Jesus , Himself... is Salvation.... and there is no other. And to have His Salvation, given to you as "the gift of Salvation", = "you must be born again", as this is the only proof that you are saved and going to heaven.

Is that a work you can do? If it is, then get busy bleeding on a cross after you have lived a sinless life.

Can't do it?
Then get busy giving faith to CHRIST, who did it for you so that God can justify you, through your faith, based on Christ who is God's Salvation.

Is that a work you can do? If it is, then get busy bleeding on a cross after you have lived a sinless life.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Then get busy giving faith to CHRIST, who did it for you so that God can justify you, through your faith, based on Christ who is God's Salvation.

Jesus don't need us giving Him faith. He has the faith, we need to receive His faith from Him.

'Our faith' neither saves no justifies anything. It is the faith of Jesus that is the gift of God unto salvation for all that obey His faith.

Man's faith is dead and useless, and it also lies against Scripture to justify themselves:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Not only do I not get busy with the hypocrites, no saint has any business with their self-saving doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

But James explained what he was talking about that if the church express faith in God to provide to the poor and yet do not lead by example, then the church's faith to the poor is dead in the eyes of the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements & starvation.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



It is the church's faith in God to provide to the poor that was not going to save the poor nor profit the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God was dead by not leading by example. This church's faith in God to provide was not about whether the church is saved or not.

James was talking about the faith that saves with works, vs the faith only that does not save at all.

Salvation is the context of all faith of the Lord Jesus in Scripture, especially in that of James, and written specifically in the exact middle of James 2.

But your effort to teach otherwise has been most instructive. Thanks.