John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Wrangler]

It has to be spiritual forces that makes someone accept that which defies all logic, common sense, language, and grammar.

And most of all, defy the explicit word of God.

The latest rant I’ve seen several times in the last couple of days is the denial of mutual exclusivity and proof by contradiction; they deny Jesus saying his God is the only true God does not mean Jesus is not God.

 

[Rich R]

I guess I struck a nerve there. Since I agreed with Rich, it can’t be all MY word about the topic.

Actually, no. It's quite simple.

When any one of us does reconsider the concept, we find ample evidence in the entirety of Scripture that your concept of Jesus not being God, and The Word not being Jesus, to be patently false.

It is Scripture that handily proves you all wrong, not spiritual forces.

I didn't write;

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Nor did I write;

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

That's why I believe that only the Father is the true God. Jesus is my Lord and the one God sent to redeem us. People do not "send" themselves anywhere. What is so complicated about that? What is there to be afraid of?

 

[GEN2REV]

Do you know of any examples in normal language (and there's no indication God did not use normal language) where one person goes "through" themselves to do something. That's a non-sequitur.

Again, it's simple.

You have to deconstruct so much of the Bible in order for any part of your non-deity Christ concept to have even a single leg to stand upon. See, God is a Spirit (John 4:24). God took a flesh body. (1 Timothy 3:16) That flesh body was Jesus Christ. That means that God - who is a Spirit - operated through that flesh form. God accomplished everything needed to break the curse of original sin through that flesh man - Jesus.

John 1:1 and John 1:14 are talking about the "word" (Greek logos).

Wrong. And all of the Bible, in its entirety, is the proof that you're very, very, wrong.

I don't need to, nor would I bother, present some well known scholar, or big name, so-called Bible authority who agrees with me because God agrees with me in His Word from Genesis to Revelation.

The onus is on YOU to prove the Bible wrong and your efforts fall very short of that.

You cannot prove, through Scripture alone, that Jesus is not God - nor that The Word is not Jesus Christ.

It is YOUR message that is demon-influenced.

 

[GEN2REV]

I didn't write;

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Nor did I write;

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

That's why I believe that only the Father is the true God. Jesus is my Lord and the one God sent to redeem us. People do not "send" themselves anywhere. What is so complicated about that? What is there to be afraid of?

And you claim God can do nothing through Himself?

"For of (by)Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be the glory forever. Amen."
Romans 11:36

 

[Wrangler]

You have to deconstruct so much of the Bible in order for any part of your non-deity Christ concept to have even a single leg to stand upon.

LOL. ‘There is only one God, the Father’. This is deconstruction for you?

And you claim God can do nothing through Himself?

"For of (by)Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be the glory forever. Amen."
Romans 11:36

Still not able to produce anything like ‘Jesus is God’, huh?

 

[Rich R]

Again, it's simple.

You have to deconstruct so much of the Bible in order for any part of your non-deity Christ concept to have even a single leg to stand upon. See, God is a Spirit (John 4:24). God took a flesh body. (1 Timothy 3:16) That flesh body was Jesus Christ. That means that God - who is a Spirit - operated through that flesh form. God accomplished everything needed to break the curse of original sin through that flesh man - Jesus.Wrong. And all of the Bible, in its entirety, is the proof that you're very, very, wrong.

I don't need to, nor would I bother, present some well known scholar, or big name, so-called Bible authority who agrees with me because God agrees with me in His Word from Genesis to Revelation.

The onus is on YOU to prove the Bible wrong and your efforts fall very short of that.

You cannot prove, through Scripture alone, that Jesus is not God - nor that The Word is not Jesus Christ.

It is YOUR message that is demon-influenced.

I've explained 1 Tim 3:16 several times. The English translators deliberately changed a word so it would fit with the trinity. I'd have to use a bit of scholarship to show that, so, knowing you're not into scholarship, I'll refrain from doing so. Maybe one of these days your interest will be sparked enough to do the research for yourself. The information is out there for anybody who is interested. Facts are facts.

I don't have to prove anything. We are told in the scriptures to declare the good news. Nowhere are we told to prove anything. We sow and water, but God gives the increase.

All the Bible proves I'm wrong?

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Well, there's at least one verse with which my thinking is perfectly aligned. There are others to be sure.

 

[GEN2REV]

LOL. ‘There is only one God, the Father’. This is deconstruction for you?

When you tear the entire chapter of John 1 out of the Bible?

Yep.

Still not able to produce anything like ‘Jesus is God’, huh?

Still in utter denial of all the verses that have been presented to you by many of us to correct and utterly shame you for your Biblical ignorance?

It's ok, Wrangler. Some people just can't handle the Truth.

 

[GEN2REV]

I've explained 1 Tim 3:16 several times. The English translators deliberately changed a word so it would fit with the trinity. I'd have to use a bit of scholarship to show that, so, knowing you're not into scholarship, I'll refrain from doing so. Maybe one of these days your interest will be sparked enough to do the research for yourself. The information is out there for anybody who is interested. Facts are facts.

I don't have to prove anything. We are told in the scriptures to declare the good news. Nowhere are we told to prove anything. We sow and water, but God gives the increase.

All the Bible proves I'm wrong?

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Well, there's at least one verse with which my thinking is perfectly aligned. There are others to be sure.

You cannot found a doctrine on a single verse, my friend. That's how God Created the Bible. It's a fail-safe to protect from those who would misconstrue God's Words.

That verse there, which is a battle cry for all those who claim Jesus is not God, is a direct reference to all of the Old Testament references to the many other gods. The Father, whose Spirit animates Christ's flesh, is the only True God among all the false gods and idols that are such an ongoing theme from Genesis to Revelation. God's Spirit, speaking through Christ's flesh, is clearly, and very obviously, not making the statement that He Himself is not God.

You have to make each and every verse align with the Bible in its entirety. That is not what your movement does. Instead they stand upon that verse like a conquered beast that somehow proves them to be almighty in their claims. They are all very wrong and their evidence is like comparing a grain of sand to all the beaches of the earth.

They are grossly inadequate in their evidence against the deity of Christ. Nothing stands against the Bible as a whole. No change of word, or meaning of a word, can hold a candle to the weight of evidence that God has filled His book with. It is a fool's errand to try and prove to the world that Christ is not God.

And those who strive to do so are the fools.

 

[Rich R]

And you claim God can do nothing through Himself?

"For of (by)Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be the glory forever. Amen."
Romans 11:36

No, God does nothing through Himself. He just does things.

Romans 11:36 is not talking about what God has done. It's simply saying that without Him we'd have nothing. God even used a figure of speech here. It is impossible for the same thing, i.e., all things, to be "by," "through," and "to." something, i.e., God, at the same time. God used the figure of speech here to emphasize how we'd be nothing without Him. That's what that verse is saying. The subject is "all thing" not "God."

 

[tigger 2]

I've explained 1 Tim 3:16 several times. The English translators deliberately changed a word so it would fit with the trinity. I'd have to use a bit of scholarship to show that, so, knowing you're not into scholarship, I'll refrain from doing so. Maybe one of these days your interest will be sparked enough to do the research for yourself. The information is out there for anybody who is interested. Facts are facts.

I don't have to prove anything. We are told in the scriptures to declare the good news. Nowhere are we told to prove anything. We sow and water, but God gives the increase.

All the Bible proves I'm wrong?

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Well, there's at least one verse with which my thinking is perfectly aligned. There are others to be sure.

...................................................

Examining the Trinity: 1 Tim. 3:16 God "manifest in the flesh" KJV

 

[Rich R]

When you tear the entire chapter of John 1 out of the Bible?

No need tear out all of John 1. Whatever John 1 says it must conform to John 20:30-31. There we are told that John wrote so that we might believe

1. that Jesus is the son of God
2. that Jesus is the anointed one, the Christ.

So even John 1:1 & 1:14 must conform to that end. John had no interest in showing us that Jesus is God.

Here's Webster on "son" - A male child; the male issue, or offspring, of a parent, father or mother.​

A son is the offspring of a parent. A son is not also his own parent! A son and his parent are two people in every sense of the word "two."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not really. That’s NOT the lesson of Original Sin.

IMO, “the lesson of original sin” is still being played out as we speak....humans are not better off making their own decisions about anything.
We were created to be ruled by the one who made us, but the devil made the reasonable limitations placed on the humans originally, into something to be alarmed over....they had it good.....but was God withholding something better? Would the humans benefit from the “knowledge of good and evil” that God was holding back from them? Eve was convinced, and so started the ball rolling as the devil intended....she was the one who talked Adam into doing something that he could not. Divided loyalties have worked for him ever since....“divide and conquer”...the oldest strategy in the book!

I suppose one can differentiate lived experience knowledge, from theoretical-theological doctrines handed down through generations.

Bingo! That is the tack that God took in the beginning....the humans could not be told that obeying God was their best insurance against calamity, so Jehovah chose to allow them to experience the full impact of self-determination, under the influence of the “god” they had chosen to obey.......the end result would be so appalling that the living would end up envying the dead....but because it would all be recorded, no human would ever want to repeat what had taken place over a long period of time......plenty of time for humans to solve the problems that they themselves had created in partnership with their chosen ruler.
Where are we now? Nations are talking about nuclear war! Seriously????

We are fast approaching the conclusion of this very important object lesson, but God will never allow the humans to destroy his handiwork. (Revelation 11:18) He did not leave mankind without his guidance and direction....he had his secretaries record his interactions with mankind through the nation that descended from his faithful servant Abraham. His only purpose in connection with them was to produce the Messiah.....initially Israel were the only ‘subjects’ of this ‘lesson’ because they were the only people on earth subject to his laws by birth. He had to bring his Messiah into the world and being a member of this nation was part of his credentials. Their behaviours in following the laws given to them would become part of example of what to do, but more importantly, what NOT to do, if one wants to please their Sovereign Lord. Israel brought so much calamity on themselves due to their disobedience.

I know gravity because I have lived experience, even if I’m unfamiliar and do not know the text book equations on the matter.

Experience is the best teacher as God has so amply demonstrated....but knowledge when coupled with experience is even better.

Jesus said it best I think....
John 3:1-6....
“Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

6 “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.”

It’s not enough to “know about” the “only true God and the one he sent”...we have to “know” them both...and the only way to know them before we can make a commitment to them is through God’s written word.
It’s the only reason why Christians were to be preachers....to tell people what God’s word says so that informed decisions can be made before “the end” comes. (Matthew 24:14)

We also have to know God’s name and all that it stands for. (Matthew 6:9)

And we have to understand *WHY* God sent his son to die for us. This information is all contained in God’s word. Jesus and his apostles constantly referred to the authority of the word of God in its written form.....so why shouldn’t we?

 

[GEN2REV]

No, God does nothing through Himself. He just does things.

Romans 11:36 is not talking about what God has done. It's simply saying that without Him we'd have nothing. God even used a figure of speech here. It is impossible for the same thing, i.e., all things, to be "by," "through," and "to." something, i.e., God, at the same time. God used the figure of speech here to emphasize how we'd be nothing without Him. That's what that verse is saying. The subject is "all thing" not "God."

You can either see the Truth or you can't, Rich. That's what it comes down to.

And when you have to repeatedly do a bunch of denying Scripture says this, or means that, contrary to the plain interpretation, and comprehension, that God presented His Word with, it is a sad, sad day.

You either can't see it, or you won't. And, honestly, I'm not sure which is worse for you.

 

[GEN2REV]

No need tear out all of John 1. Whatever John 1 says it must conform to John 20:30-31. There we are told that John wrote so that we might believe

1. that Jesus is the son of God
2. that Jesus is the anointed one, the Christ.

So even John 1:1 & 1:14 must conform to that end. John had no interest in showing us that Jesus is God.

Here's Webster on "son" - A male child; the male issue, or offspring, of a parent, father or mother.​

A son is the offspring of a parent. A son is not also his own parent! A son and his parent are two people in every sense of the word "two."

I'm glad you bring that up.

Let's talk about that.

Tell me what your nonsense story is for the conception of Jesus Christ. Who was His father, and how exactly did that work?

 

[Rich R]

...................................................

Examining the Trinity: 1 Tim. 3:16 God "manifest in the flesh" KJV

So easy. But they seem to have problems with actual scholarship. They are much more comfortable with tradition.

 

[Rich R]

And when you have to repeatedly do a bunch of denying Scripture says this, or means that, contrary to the plain interpretation, and comprehension, that God presented His Word with, it is a sad, sad day.

You either can't see it, or you won't. And, honestly, I'm not sure which is worse for you.

Odd you'd bring up believing in the clear meaning of scripture while denying the simple words Jesus spoke to God; "...that they might know thee the only true God,"

 

[Waiting on him]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

It’s really rather simple Jesus said the words that he spoke are Spirit

 

[Rich R]

I'm glad you bring that up.

Let's talk about that.

Tell me what your nonsense story is for the conception of Jesus Christ. Who was His father, and how exactly did that work?

The only one I could give you is found in Matthew chapter 1.

Jesus actually had two fathers; Joseph and God. Well, you, as a born again believer, actually have two fathers also; Mr. GEN2REV Sr. and God. In any case you are not your father and Jesus is not his father either. We both have fathers, but we are not our fathers.

 

[GEN2REV]

The only one I could give you is found in Matthew chapter 1.

Jesus actually had two fathers; Joseph and God. Well, you, as a born again believer, actually have two fathers also; Mr. GEN2REV Sr. and God. In any case you are not your father and Jesus is not his father either. We both have fathers, but we are not our fathers.

Absolutely wrong. As I suspected.

What we all have is an earthly human mother and father. Jesus only had an earthly human mother. That is where His flesh body came from.

His Spirit (soul), on the other hand, came directly from God Almighty - a Spirit, mind you. (John 4:24) A spirit does not procreate or give birth like humans. That means if God IS a spirit, and God put His spirit (Himself) into Mary's human egg, that would make HIM the outcome. That would make Jesus ... God Almighty.

God humbled Himself, made Himself obedient unto death so as to break the curse through a flesh man by obeying all the Commandments and going to the Cross 100% sinless.

Again, when Scripture is held up to the Light in its entirety, all of these little nonsense extra-biblical teachings pale and melt away in the Light of the Truth.

Jesus IS God Almighty.

 

[Rich R]

Absolutely wrong. As I suspected.

What we all have is an earthly human mother and father. Jesus only had an earthly human mother. That is where His flesh body came from.

His Spirit (soul), on the other hand, came directly from God Almighty - a Spirit, mind you. (John 4:24) A spirit does not procreate or give birth like humans. That means if God IS a spirit, and God put His spirit (Himself) into Mary's human egg, that would make HIM the outcome. That would make Jesus ... God Almighty.

So your father put his seed into your mother's egg and your father, not you, was born? That would make your father his father and you nonexistent. I mean if God wasn't born until Mary bore Him, whose seed was it that impregnated Mary? God bore Himself before He was born? See how screwy things get when a father and his son are supposedly one and the same person?

God humbled Himself, made Himself obedient unto death so as to break the curse through a flesh man by obeying all the Commandments and going to the Cross 100% sinless.

My Bible says Jesus humbled himself (Phil 2:8) What version are you using?

Again, when Scripture is held up to the Light in its entirety, all of these little nonsense extra-biblical teachings pale and melt away in the Light of the Truth.

Jesus IS God Almighty.

In its entirety? Except for the ones that say Jesus is the son of God I guess.