John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

Kermos · Oct 26, 2022

@Aunty Jane @Rich R @APAK @tigger 2 @JohnPaul @Keiw @True Faith @face2face

We must return to the consistent Apostolic testimony that Jesus is YHWH God.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony.

Now, switching to @Aunty Jane preaching against the veracity (John 14:6) of the above Apostolic testimony.

The Truth (John 14:6) has been proclaimed to you, and in a single post, you expose a multitude of Watchtower Society people's deception in your denial of Apostolic testimony:

Aunty Jane · Oct 26, 2022

@Kermos every single point has been discussed ad nauseum.....for goodness sake give it a rest.
We’ve heard it all a millions times, and never once have we agreed with a word you’ve said.
Nothing on your regurgitated list is of the slightest interest to me or any others who disagree with you.

You must have some desperate need to keep harping on when it’s all dead and buried. You can believe whatever you wish, but the one thing you cannot do is turn the lies of the past into present truth.

Christendom has never taught he truth......which is why Jesus tells the “many” at the judgment....”I NEVER knew you...depart from me you workers of lawlessness”. He has never known those who promote things that Christ and his apostles never taught.

There is no trinity....there is no immortal soul....and there is no hellfire.....Jesus is not Yahweh.
None of those things are found in God’s word. But you can believe them as much as you want to.
We all have the same judge....remember? He will let us all know soon enough whom he accepts as his own.

PinSeeker · Oct 26, 2022

"May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, O Jehovah (YHVH), my Rock and my Redeemer." (David, Psalm 19:14)

Christ Jesus is our Rock:

“Everyone then who hears these words of Mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock." (Jesus, Matthew 7:24)
"(Jesus) said to (His disciples), 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'" (Jesus, Matthwe 16:15-18)
"...all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ." (Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:2-4)
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone..." (Paul, Ephesians 2:19-20)
"...you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.' So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,' and 'A stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offense.'" (Peter, 1 Peter 2:4-8)

Christ Jesus is our Redeemer:

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." (Galatians 3:13)
"God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4-5)
"...in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." (Paul, Titus 2:11-14)
"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption... Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Hebrews 9:11-15)

YHVH is our Rock and Redeemer. Christ Jesus is our Rock and Redeemer. YHVH is manifest in the man Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is YHVH made flesh.

Many other like word associations can easily be made in Scripture ~ YHVH is our shepherd (Psalm 23), and Jesus is our shepherd (John 10) ~ and truths about Him ~ "For I the LORD (YHVH) do not change..." (Malachi 3:6), and "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

Grace and peace to all.

Wrangler · Oct 26, 2022

PinSeeker said:
Christ Jesus is our Rock:...
Christ Jesus is our Redeemer:

You are confounding the sovereign with his agent.

Aunty Jane · Oct 26, 2022

Wrangler said:
You are confounding the sovereign with his agent.

How strange that there is not one clear and unequivocal declaration from either the Sovereign Lord Yahweh or his appointed co-regent to clear up this debate. All the trinitarians have is conjecture, suggestion and similarities in titles.

The one who sends the redeemer is also a redeemer....the one who sends the savior is also a savior.
What does it mean to call someone a “rock”? “The church” is built on a rock solid foundation in Jesus, but who was the builder who supplied the rock? Yahweh did not “send” himself. (John 17:3)

Seriously the conflating of titles is rather pathetic but when you have an ancient lie to present as scriptural truth, I guess you have to grasp at any straw that will support your assertion.

Nowhere in all of scripture is Jesus called Yahweh. Nowhere is he called the Creator either.

Jack · Oct 26, 2022

Rich R said:
That's the verse that proves I'm going to burn in hell because I believe Jesus is son of God, my Lord, and that God raised him from the dead?

I didn't say you're gonna burn in Hell. But if God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Jude 1:25
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

BeyondET · Oct 27, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
How strange that there is not one clear and unequivocal declaration from either the Sovereign Lord Yahweh or his appointed co-regent to clear up this debate. All the trinitarians have is conjecture, suggestion and similarities in titles.

The one who sends the redeemer is also a redeemer....the one who sends the savior is also a savior.
What does it mean to call someone a “rock”? “The church” is built on a rock solid foundation in Jesus, but who was the builder who supplied the rock? Yahweh did not “send” himself. (John 17:3)

Seriously the conflating of titles is rather pathetic but when you have an ancient lie to present as scriptural truth, I guess you have to grasp at any straw that will support your assertion.

Nowhere in all of scripture is Jesus called Yahweh. Nowhere is he called the Creator either.

That's the thing about faith, it's not all about what you can physically see and hear for a declaration to be true...

Aunty Jane · Oct 27, 2022

BeyondET said:
That's the thing about faith, it's not all about what you can physically see and hear for a declaration to be true...

Faith must be based on knowledge....it cannot be blind or its not worth having....

Wrangler · Oct 27, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
Faith must be based on knowledge

Not really. That’s NOT the lesson of Original Sin.

I suppose one can differentiate lived experience knowledge, from theoretical-theological doctrines handed down through generations.

I know gravity because I have lived experience, even if I’m unfamiliar and do not know the text book equations on the matter.

Rich R · Oct 27, 2022

Jack said:
I didn't say you're gonna burn in Hell. But if God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Jude 1:25
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Yes! God saved us through His only begotten son, our living Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It reminds me how Joshua, whose name means "Yahweh saved," led Israel from the dessert into the promised land. That must have been some day. But our leaving this earth to meet Jesus in the air and be with him for evermore will be light years beyond that!

GEN2REV · Oct 27, 2022

Rich R said:
John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

The verse where Jesus references God as the only True God is not at all saying that He is not Himself God. Jesus was merely referring to the OT that is chock full of references to all the other gods (little g).

Can you explain John 1:10 in a way that makes it speak of somebody other than Jesus Christ AS God?

Here's the verse for reference:

"He was in the world (physically - so not the Father), and the world was made by Him (only God has the power to make a world), and the world knew Him not (Jesus was rejected by God's chosen people while physically in the earth world - this does not align with the Father).

Your thoughts?

Rich R · Oct 27, 2022

GEN2REV said:
The verse where Jesus references God as the only True God is not at all saying that He is not Himself God. Jesus was merely referring to the OT that is chock full of references to all the other gods (little g).
Jesus is God, the Father, who Paul said was the only God? Jesus is the God's son. He's not the Father.

Can you explain John 1:10 in a way that makes it speak of somebody other than Jesus Christ AS God?

Here's the verse for reference:

"He was in the world (physically - so not the Father), and the world was made by Him (only God has the power to make a world), and the world knew Him not (Jesus was rejected by God's chosen people while physically in the earth world - this does not align with the Father).

Your thoughts?

Well, Jesus was certainly in the world. Otherwise we'd all be sunk! And Israel certainly rejected him. You can tell that by the crucifixion.

To say the world was made "by" Jesus is a misleading translation. The word they translated "by" is the Greek work "dia.

G1223 διά dia (d̮iy-a') prep.

δι- di- (d̮iy-) [shortened prefix]
1. through.

Without going into a lot of detail, it should suffice to understand that "dia" means agency, something one person does "through" or "dia" another person. Every leading Hollywood actor has an agent. Same with a star quarterback. The agent acts as a go-between. The actor or quarterback does not negotiate directly with their producer or team owner. Instead they go through an agent. The upshot is that the agent is not the same person as the the one they represent.

The logos (word) of John 1:1 is the idea, the plan,God had in mind in the beginning. It was Jesus who acted as the agent between God and man in order to make that plan a reality. Much simpler than trying to make one the same thing as three. As many councils as they've held, as many arguments that have been put forth for thousands of years now, nobody has yet to make a coherent statement as to how one can be the same as three. They just say it is so and we're all supposed to, "just take it by faith." You'd think they'd give up and accept the simple assertion that God is the Father and Jesus is His son. No explanation needed for that.

Wrangler · Oct 27, 2022

GEN2REV said:
The verse where Jesus references God as the only True God is not at all saying that He is not Himself God.

No, of course not.

GEN2REV · Oct 27, 2022

Rich R said:
Well, Jesus was certainly in the world. Otherwise we'd all be sunk! And Israel certainly rejected him. You can tell that by the crucifixion.

To say the world was made "by" Jesus is a misleading translation. The word they translated "by" is the Greek work "dia.

G1223 διά dia (d̮iy-a') prep.

δι- di- (d̮iy-) [shortened prefix]
1. through.

Without going into a lot of detail, it should suffice to understand that "dia" means agency, something one person does "through" or "dia" another person. Every leading Hollywood actor has an agent. Same with a star quarterback. The agent acts as a go-between. The actor or quarterback does not negotiate directly with their producer or team owner. Instead they go through and agent. The upshot is that the agent is not the same person as the the one they represent.

The logos (word) of John 1:1 is the idea, the plan,God had in mind in the beginning. It was Jesus who acted as the agent between God and man in order to make that plan a reality. Much simpler than trying to make one the same thing as three. As many councils as they've held, as many arguments that have been put forth for thousands of years now, nobody has yet to make a coherent statement as to how one can be the same as three. They just say it is so and we're all supposed to, "just take it by faith." You'd think they'd give up and accept the simple assertion that God is the Father and Jesus is His son. No explanation needed for that.

Ok, but let's not overlook that the verse in question makes three assertions about the same person, regardless of whether it uses 'by' or 'through.'

So the first assertion is not God, it's clearly Jesus, as you agree.

The third assertion is not God, it's clearly Jesus, as you also agree.

By simple logic, that makes the second assertion about Jesus as well.

So, if you want to go with the idea that Jesus did not make the world Himself, we go to verse 14.

Explain how it's possible that verse 14 is not speaking of Jesus Christ. Because if it is, that blows your entire theory out of the water. It makes Jesus God, it makes Jesus The Word and it makes Jesus the Creator of all things.

Here's the verse:
"And the Word was made flesh (Jesus was flesh, the Father is Spirit), and dwelt among us (Jesus dwelt among us), (and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father,) [God shares His glory with nobody Isaiah 42:8] full of grace and Truth." (Grace comes only from God Almighty and Jesus IS the Truth John 14:6)"

Wrangler · Oct 27, 2022

Rich R said:
To say the world was made "by" Jesus is a misleading translation. The word they translated "by" is the Greek work "dia.

G1223 διά dia (d̮iy-a') prep.
δι- di- (d̮iy-) [shortened prefix]
1. through.
Without going into a lot of detail, it should suffice to understand that "dia" means agency, something one person does "through" or "dia" another person.

It’s sad and telling that so many continue to rely on a bad translation AFTER it has been pointed out to them.

GEN2REV · Oct 27, 2022

Wrangler said:
It’s sad and telling that so many continue to rely on a bad translation AFTER it has been pointed out to them.

It's sad that you are so arrogant and certain that ONLY YOU are right that you literally EXPECT everyone to take YOUR word for things.

The Bible is the Authority for me, certainly not you. And when you say that a word doesn't mean what it says, or that it's not the correct word, when all of Scripture aligns with the word that is there and its obvious meaning, you are flat WRONG.

And it doesn't matter how many of us correct you, and give you a thousand verses of evidence to the contrary of the agenda you're pushing, you still just refuse to even be sensible and learn something.

You're not omniscient, Wrangler, and you don't know more than God's Word has made plain for thousands of years now.

So sit your a$$ down!

Rich R · Oct 27, 2022

GEN2REV said:
Ok, but let's not overlook that the verse in question makes three assertions about the same person, regardless of whether it uses 'by' or 'through.'

So the first assertion is not God, it's clearly Jesus, as you agree.

The third assertion is not God, it's clearly Jesus, as you also agree.

By simple logic, that makes the second assertion about Jesus as well.

Do you know of any examples in normal language (and there's no indication God did not use normal language) where one person goes "through" themselves to do something. That's a non-sequitur.

So, if you want to go with the idea that Jesus did not make the world Himself, we go to verse 14.

Explain how it's possible that verse 14 is not speaking of Jesus Christ. Because if it is, that blows your entire theory out of the water. It makes Jesus God, it makes Jesus The Word and it makes Jesus the Creator of all things.

Here's the verse:
"And the Word was made flesh (Jesus was flesh, the Father is Spirit), and dwelt among us (Jesus dwelt among us), (and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father,) [God shares His glory with nobody Isaiah 42:8] full of grace and Truth." (Grace comes only from God Almighty and Jesus IS the Truth John 14:6)"

John 1:1 and John 1:14 are talking about the "word" (Greek logos). No matter how bad we want to change that word into "Jesus" it's just not a good idea. It's changing the word of God and that never ends well. Instead of substituting "Jesus" for "logos," why not find out what "logos" actually means then go from there?

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.

1. a word, something said (including the thought).
2. (by implication) a saying or expression.
3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).
4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).
5. (thus) a matter.
6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).
7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).
8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).
9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).
10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).
11. (of asking) a question.

You will notice none of these definitions mentions Jesus. God had a plan in mind and, as I said before, Jesus was agent who carried out the plan. He made the plan a physical reality.

John 14 is a figure of speech to show how closely Jesus followed God. He always did exactly what was in God's mind, the logos. Jesus was the physical manifestation of the plan or idea God had in mind from the beginning. An idea can never literally become something concrete, so it has to be a figure of speech. We might show a friend the blueprint for our new house, saying, "Here's my new house." Well, the blueprint is actually a sheet of paper and it wouldn't make a good place to live! It's a figure of speech. Same thing with John 1:14.

In any case, John 1:14 does not say "Jesus became flesh..." It says the, "the word became flesh..."

John stated in clear terms why he wrote his Gospel:

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Two things John wanted to show us:

Jesus is the Christ
Jesus is the son of God

The entire book, including 1:1 and 1:14, must be understood with that purpose in mind. John had no interest in writing so that we would know Jesus is God.

Rich R · Oct 27, 2022

Wrangler said:
It’s sad and telling that so many continue to rely on a bad translation AFTER it has been pointed out to them.

Jesus told some Pharisees that tradition makes the word of God of none effect. I guess it's nothing new. Still you'd think what you, I, and a few others here, have said would at least make them re-consider their position. It has to be spiritual forces that makes someone accept that which defies all logic, common sense, language, and grammar.

Wrangler · Oct 27, 2022

GEN2REV said:
It's sad that you are so arrogant and certain that ONLY YOU are right that you literally EXPECT everyone to take YOUR word for things.

The Bible is the Authority for me

I guess I struck a nerve there. Since I agreed with Rich, it can’t be all MY word about the topic.

GEN2REV · Oct 27, 2022

Rich R said:
Jesus told some Pharisees that tradition makes the word of God of none effect. I guess it's nothing new. Still you'd think what you, I, and a few others here, have said would at least make them re-consider their position. It has to be spiritual forces that makes someone accept that which defies all logic, common sense, language, and grammar.

Actually, no. It's quite simple.

When any one of us does reconsider the concept, we find ample evidence in the entirety of Scripture that your concept of Jesus not being God, and The Word not being Jesus, to be patently false.

It is Scripture that handily proves you all wrong, not spiritual forces.

John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

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