John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Wrangler]

Scripture Philippians 2;5-6, John 17:21, John 1:18, Colossians 2;9-10, John 10:33, John 5:18, John 1;1, John 1;14, John 8;57-58 Revelation 19:10 Hebrews 1;6

There you go again!

This is what trinitarians do. Rather than answer a simple question, they blast many Scripture verses pretending any of the them support their doctrine but not one does.

The question is, Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?

 

[Wrangler]

Balaam worshipped The Angel of the Lord., not an angel. In the burning bush he speaks for God he is not an ordinary angel. Angels do not accept worship.

That's your doctrine speaking - independent of any Scripture supporting it!

A is A. Angels are angels. Angels are not non-angels. What angels are there besides 'of the lord?'

 

[Angelina]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

Jesus is not the father - Matthew 7:21, Matthew 10:32, Mark 10:17-18, Mark 13:32, Luke 2:49, Luke 9:26, Luke 18:18-19, John 17:1-5, John 5:20-22, John 5:45, John 5:37, John 6:27, Romans 1:7, Romans 15:5-6, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 2 Corinthians 1:2, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:3, Philippians 2:11, Colossians 3:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, 2 Timothy 1:2, He is the Son - Matthew 3:17, John 1:14, John 1:18, John 1:33-34, Romans 5:10, Romans 8:3, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:4, Colossians 1:13, Hebrews 1:1-3, 2 Peter 1:16-18, 1 John 1:3, I John 2:22-24, 1 John 4:10, 1 John 5:11-13, Revelation 5:8:8-9 But they are one Godhead - John 8:54, John 17:3-5, Ephesians 2:18, Hebrews 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:8-9, Hebrews 1:13....and I can go.....

 

[Wrangler]

Balaam worshipped The Angel of the Lord., not an angel.

Even by your own admission, you are saying that Beings other than God were worshipped.

 

[RLT63]

There you go again!



The question is, Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?

As I said Scripture, which you ignore

 

[Rich R]

Jesus is not the father - Matthew 7:21, Matthew 10:32, Matthew 10:36, Mark 10:17, Mark 13:32, Luke 2:49, Luke 9:26, Luke 18:18-19, John 17:1-5, John 5:20-22, John 5:45, John 5:37, John 6:27, Romans 1:7, Romans 15:5-6, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 2 Corinthians 1:2, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:3, Philippians 2:11, Colossians 3:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, 2 Timothy 1:2, He is the Son - Matthew 3:17, John 1:14, John 1:18, John 1:33-34, Romans 5:10, Romans 8:3, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:4, Colossians 1:13, Hebrews 1:1-3, 2 Peter 1:16-18, 1 John 1:3, I John 2:22-24, 1 John 4:10, 1 John 5:11-13, Revelation 5:8:8-9 But they are one Godhead - John 8:54, John 17:3-5, Ephesians 2:18, Hebrews 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:8-9, Hebrews 1:13....and I can go.....

I'm sorry, but none of the verses you listed actually say anything about Jesus being God. John 8:54 for example is clearly talking about two different people with no hint whatsoever that those two people are part of the trinity. Such an idea has to be inserted into the verse because. Likewise with John 17:3-5. There we see Jesus asking his Father to glorify him. Wouldn't that lead one to think there was a time when Jesus was not glorified, leading to the conclusion that at some time in the past God was not glorified?

Ephesians 2:18 says we go through Jesus to get to God. One person to go through to get to another...two people with no hint they are somehow actually one person, (nor the non-scriptural term "essence").

Anyway, I think the power of tradition causes us to see things that aren't there at all.

I

 

[RLT63]

Even by your own admission, you are saying that Beings other than God were worshipped.

The Angel of The Lord is the same as God. Many believe he is the pre-incarnate Jesus

 

[Rich R]

Even by your own admission, you are saying that Beings other than God were worshipped.

Yeah, the Hebrew word for worship is used many times of people bowing to a superior. The same Hebrew word is used for "worship" and "bowing." I think it's something like "shelach" but better verify that before passing it on. :)

 

[Angelina]

I'm sorry, but none of the verses you listed actually say anything about Jesus being God. John 8:54 for example is clearly talking about two different people with no hint whatsoever that those two people are part of the trinity. Such an idea has to be inserted into the verse because. Likewise with John 17:3-5. There we see Jesus asking his Father to glorify him. Wouldn't that lead one to think there was a time when Jesus was not glorified, leading to the conclusion that at some time in the past God was not glorified?

Ephesians 2:18 says we go through Jesus to get to God. One person to go through to get to another...two people with no hint they are somehow actually one person, (nor the non-scriptural term "essence").

Anyway, I think the power of tradition causes us to see things that aren't there at all.

I

My apologies, I thought your point in the O/P was that "Jesus is the Father " the bible verses above, indicate that Jesus is not the Father

 

[RLT63]

That's your doctrine speaking - independent of any Scripture supporting it!

A is A. Angels are angels. Angels are not non-angels. What angels are there besides 'of the lord?'

The Angel of the Lord is specific. In the burning Bush he speaks as God himself. Unless you are using The New World Translation, the only version that translates it differently.

 

[Angelina]

@Rich R - your post - Anyway, I think the power of tradition causes us to see things that aren't there at all.

I came straight out of the world brother. No traditional background at all. Just a pagan who became a believer and has the Holy Spirit dwelling within...

 

[Wrangler]

The Angel of The Lord is the same as God.

To fit your doctrine, it has to be the case but god and angels are not the same form of life. Can you at least admit that there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God?

It's so odd to suppose God sometimes goes by the name God and sometimes by the name angel.

 

[RLT63]

To fit your doctrine, it has to be the case but god and angels are not the same form of life. Can you at least admit that there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God?

It's so odd to suppose God sometimes goes by the name God and sometimes by the name angel.

Who is the angel of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

 

[tigger 2]

Yeah, the Hebrew word for worship is used many times of people bowing to a superior. The same Hebrew word is used for "worship" and "bowing." I think it's something like "shelach" but better verify that before passing it on. :)

................................................
Shachah (Heb.) proskuneo (Gk.) - See post #759 above.

 

[Wrangler]

The Angel of the Lord is specific.

Still, an angel. The Angel of the Lord is a specific angel. My question was Can you at least admit that there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God?

I guess the answer is no.

 

[tigger 2]

Who is the angel of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

Any angel God chooses to speak for him will be called "the Angel of God" or "the Angel of the Lord." See Matt. 1:20; Matt. 28:2-6; Luke 1:11, 19; etc.

 

[Wrangler]

Who is the angel of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

In other words, you cannot admit there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God. It's the whole reason you have to defer to a website.

 

[RLT63]

To fit your doctrine, it has to be the case but god and angels are not the same form of life. Can you at least admit that there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God?

It's so odd to suppose God sometimes goes by the name God and sometimes by the name angel.

God goes by many names. At least you believe in God I have been on a forum filled with atheists and evolutionists. This one is much better. We may never agree on the Godhead but at least we agree that there is a God.

 

[RLT63]

In other words, you cannot admit there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God. It's the whole reason you have to defer to a website.

Is there a scripture verse that says Lucifer is the devil?

 

[RLT63]

Still, an angel. The Angel of the Lord is a specific angel. My question was Can you at least admit that there is no Scripture verse that actually says The Angel of The Lord is the same as God?

I guess the answer is no.

There is no scripture verse that says Lucifer is the devil but we draw that conclusion from the scriptures