John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

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Peterlag

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Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

It appears you did not understand my question. Why do so many feel the need to believe Jesus is God. What does that produce? Here let me give you a reason why he's a man. And then you tell me why he's God. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). Your turn.
 
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RLT63

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In other words, you cannot answer my question.

Do you realize that others in Scripture were worshipped besides the one true God? Total red herring.
You have no response. Yes others were worshipped like Baal. Angels refuse worship. Jesus did not
 

RLT63

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It appears you did not understand my question. Why do so many feel the need to believe Jesus is God. What does that produce? Here let me give you a reason why he's a man. And then you tell me why he's God. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). Your turn.
Jesus was a man. He is also God. Fully man and fully God.
 

RLT63

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So there’s no scripture that says what you say.

You just believe in some extra biblical teachings…
It is taught throughout the Bible. If Jesus was only a man why did he allow people to worship him?
 

RLT63

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It is taught throughout the Bible. If Jesus was only a man why did he allow people to worship him?
Just in Matthew Matthew 2:11, Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 14;33, Matthew 15:25, Matthew 28;19, Matthew 28;17 if Jesus accepted worship and he is not worthy of it what does that make him?
 

RLT63

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Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture? Jesus does not teach the trinity. He does not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god but to a singular Being, who we relate to as Father. Jesus told us God is in heaven, while Jesus was on Earth. Not the same.
You didn't answer my question. Why did Jesus allow people to worship him?
 
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Wrangler

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OK, RLT63. Let's break this down.

Do a search on how many times people worshipped Jesus. Why would he accept worship if he was not worthy of it?

Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture? Jesus does not teach the trinity. He does not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god but to a singular Being, who we relate to as Father. Jesus told us God is in heaven, while Jesus was on Earth. Not the same.

Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?

Simple question. Please answer it.

Just in Matthew Matthew 2:11, Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 14;33, Matthew 15:25, Matthew 28;19, Matthew 28;17 if Jesus accepted worship and he is not worthy of it what does that make him?

This is what trinitarians do. Rather than answer a simple question, they blast many Scripture verses pretending any of the them support their doctrine but not one does. And then, they ignore the verses cited, questions asked and pretend they are the only ones who can ask questions.

In other words, you cannot answer my question.

Do you realize that others in Scripture were worshipped besides the one true God? Total red herring.

You didn't answer my question. Why did Jesus allow people to worship him?

I didn't answer your question because I'm addressing the sentence you made before the the question. The trinitarian position that Jesus has a burden to rebuke worship has no foundation. (David, Daniel and Nebuchanazer were all worshipped.) Again, it is a total red herring that one has a burden to rebuke it or it means that they are 'accepting it', or 'allowing' it, which means they are, in fact God. You are taking what Jesus did NOT do as glorifying himself in the highest possible manner, in direct contradiction to what Jesus said at John 8:54 ‘If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing.’
Jesus never claimed to be God. The trinity is not in the Bible. Why is what is NOT in the Bible and what Jesus did NOT say or do important, more important than what is in the Bible and what Jesus said and did?
Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Why is this not good enough for you?​

So, again, let's break this down. Answer my 1st question, Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?
 
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RLT63

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OK, RLT63. Let's break this down.





Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?

Simple question. Please answer it.



This is what trinitarians do. Rather than answer a simple question, they blast many Scripture verses pretending any of the them support their doctrine but not one does. And then, they ignore the verses cited, questions asked and pretend they are the only ones who can ask questions.





I didn't answer your question because I'm addressing the sentence you made before the the question. The trinitarian position that Jesus has a burden to rebuke worship has no foundation. (David, Daniel and Nebuchanazer were all worshipped.) Again, it is a total red herring that one has a burden to rebuke it or it means that they are 'accepting it', or 'allowing' it, which means they are, in fact God. You are taking what Jesus did NOT do as glorifying himself in the highest possible manner, in direct contradiction to what Jesus said at John 8:54 ‘If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing.’
Jesus never claimed to be God. The trinity is not in the Bible. Why is what is NOT in the Bible and what Jesus did NOT say or do important, more important than what is in the Bible and what Jesus said and did?
Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Why is this not good enough for you?​

So, again, let's break this down. Answer my 1st question, Who is the authority; 'people' or Scripture?
Scripture Philippians 2;5-6, John 17:21, John 1:18, Colossians 2;9-10, John 10:33, John 5:18, John 1;1, John 1;14, John 8;57-58 Revelation 19:10 Hebrews 1;6
 
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tigger 2

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Worship (shachah, Heb.; proskuneo Greek)

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships” ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship” is here translated “did obeisance” in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).

Angels, when acting as representatives of Jehovah and speaking his words, could properly receive proskuneo as representatives for a superior authority.

Gen. 18:2 uses shachah to describe what Abraham did to the angels (p. 37, New Bible Dictionary, second ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publ.) who came to him, and what Lot did to two of those same angels (shachah) is described at Gen. 19:1 (Also see Unger and White, pp. 7 and 482.) Proskuneo is also used in these two scriptures in the Septuagint. Also see Numbers 22:31: Balaam “worshiped” (proskuneo - Sept. and shachah [”fell flat” - KJV] - Hebrew OT) the ANGEL and the angel accepted it! (Unlike Rev. 19:10 and 22:8, 9.)
 
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RLT63

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Worship (shachah, Heb.; proskuneo Greek)

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships” ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship” is here translated “did obeisance” in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).

Angels, when acting as representatives of Jehovah and speaking his words, could properly receive proskuneo as representatives for a superior authority.

Gen. 18:2 uses shachah to describe what Abraham did to the angels (p. 37, New Bible Dictionary, second ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publ.) who came to him, and what Lot did to two of those same angels (shachah) is described at Gen. 19:1 (Also see Unger and White, pp. 7 and 482.) Proskuneo is also used in these two scriptures in the Septuagint. Also see Numbers 22:31: Balaam “worshiped” (proskuneo - Sept. and shachah [”fell flat” - KJV] - Hebrew OT) the ANGEL and the angel accepted it! (Unlike Rev. 19:10 and 22:8, 9.)
Balaam worshipped The Angel of the Lord., not an angel. In the burning bush he speaks for God he is not an ordinary angel. Angels do not accept worship.
 
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