Jesus and Peter taught that the earth will be destroyed unexpectedly on the day Jesus returns just as the earth was destroyed in Noah's day

[Spiritual Israelite]

First, let's look at what Jesus taught will happen on the day He returns.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

First, Jesus points out here that "heaven and earth shall pass away and "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only". So, He taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly. Then He pointed out that the flood "took them all away" ("destroyed them all" - Luke 17:27) after Noah entered the ark and He said in relation to that "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" ("Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". - Luke 17:30).

Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly and will destroy all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We know that Peter is talking about something relating to the day of Christ's return in 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 because the context of what he is talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he points out that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming. Their scoffing will be put to an end once and for all when Jesus returns to "destroy them all" like happened with the flood in Noah's day except this time they will all be destroyed by fire.

No one knows the day or hour Jesus will come as a thief in the night to burn up and renew the heavens and the earth by fire, resulting in the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". That's why Peter said "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God". Knowing that the day will come when Jesus takes vengeance on all of His enemies, we need to examine ourselves and make sure that we are ready for that day. As Paul said about that same day, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, I guess everyone agrees with me about this. Good to know.

 

[Keraz]

So, I guess everyone agrees with me about this. Good to know.

Haha!
It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse the holy Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, years later, at the glorious Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, Revelation 16:17-24...the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ by the Sword of His Word – NOT by fire and chains Satan up. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

Then there will be a thousand year reign of King Jesus on earth and after that; He will hand the Kingdom back to God.
Everyone who has ever lives will be judged and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will go into Eternity with God.

 

[Zao is life]

First, let's look at what Jesus taught will happen on the day He returns.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Peter used different words for "the earth" and "the world" when he mentioned the fact that the world perished.

Question: Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

Is your answer:
(a) The heavens and the earth perished in the flood; or
(b) The world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it perished in the flood.
?

Question: Can the meaning of a Greek word used in the New Testament be the same in every verse except one where the same word is used?

(Yes or no please).

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

THE SENSE IN WHICH THE ABOVE GREEK WORDS ARE USED WHEREVER ELSE THEY APPEAR IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

3. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away [parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly".

If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

4. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

2 Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire [pyro] shall be dissolved [lýō], and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:11-12).

Pyro: πυρόω pyro (Strongs Greek Dictionary 4448):

to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined, (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):--burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (2 Peter 3:13).

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life [zoe]; and the life [zoe] was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." (Revelation 21:5).

Continued in next Post

 

[Zao is life]

MAKING ALL THINGS NEW [kaínōsis]

Strongs Greek 02537 καινός kainós
of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness).

Strongs Greek 00342 ἀνακαίνωσις anakaínōsis
from 341 (anakainóō); renovation:--renewing.

Strongs Greek 00341 ἀνακαινόω anakainóō
from 303 and a derivative of 2537; to renovate:--renew.

kainós

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing (anakaínōsis) of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2).

"So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new (kainós) creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new (kainós)." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new (kainós) creation." (Galatians 6:15).

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH

--- And I saw a new (kainós) heaven and a new (kainós) earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
And I, John, saw the holy city, New (kainós) Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband. --- Revelation 21:1-2

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make (poiéō) all things new (kainós). And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful" (Revelation 21:5).

So please answer the questions in the previous post:

Question: Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

Is your answer:
(a) The heavens and the earth perished in the flood; or
(b) The world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it perished in the flood.
?

Question: Can the meaning of a Greek word used in the New Testament be the same in every verse except one where the same word is used?

(Yes or no please).

First, let's look at what Jesus taught will happen on the day He returns.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Zao is life]

Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly and will destroy all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns.

He didn't say the heavens and the earth will pass away, if one takes the meaning of the Greek word in accordance with what it means in every other New Testament verse where the same word is used, and the example of Noah and the flood - because the heaven and earth did not pass away in the flood - the world and all flesh in it perished.

He was saying that he return of Christ would come upon us all unexpectedly - and elsewhere Jesus warns us to watch and apostles warn us to be ready:

We know that Peter is talking about something relating to the day of Christ's return in 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 because the context of what he is talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he points out that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming. Their scoffing will be put to an end once and for all when Jesus returns to "destroy them all" like happened with the flood in Noah's day except this time they will all be destroyed by fire.

The fire of God's judgment / wrath.

And there are no scoffers in these boards saying what Peter says the scoffers will be saying. So who are you talking to, actually?

No one knows the day or hour Jesus will come as a thief

Correct.

That's why Peter said "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God".

Knowing that the day will come when Jesus takes vengeance on all of His enemies, we need to examine ourselves and make sure that we are ready for that day.

As Paul said about that same day, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

Thanks for the exhortation you close off with. If only you wouldn't "interpret" for the saints THE REST of what Peter was talking about (because you just push your own misinterpretation upon the saints yet again).

But thanks for the exhortation, or should I say, the reminder because Jesus and the apostles through the scriptures are the ones still doing the exhorting.

May I suggest that it behooves us all to start with not insulting, replying to the posts of the saints in demeaning ways, and making false accusations in boards like this?

@Spiritual Israelite Maybe you could give and invite suggestions of what we should be doing - and NOT doing - to be ready?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Haha!
It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies.

This is what Premills have to resort to in order to keep their doctrine afloat. I saw one Premill trying to say there are two new heavens and two new earths and now you're trying to say there are two separate days of the Lord. I can't take nonsense like that seriously at all.

Why aren't you addressing anything I said in my post? Typical.

The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse the holy Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, years later, at the glorious Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, Revelation 16:17-24...the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ by the Sword of His Word – NOT by fire and chains Satan up. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord. There is only one. You noticeably don't bother referring to the passages that actually refer to the day of the Lord specifically which each show that no mortal will survive it. Paul made it clear by saying those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" and Peter said the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord when Jesus comes. Good luck escaping that. It won't happen.

Then there will be a thousand year reign of King Jesus on earth and after that; He will hand the Kingdom back to God.
Everyone who has ever lives will be judged and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will go into Eternity with God.

Scripture teaches that He will hand the kingdom to God the Father at His second coming at the end of the age.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He didn't say the heavens and the earth will pass away, if one takes the meaning of the Greek word in accordance with what it means in every other New Testament verse where the same word is used, and the example of Noah and the flood - because the heaven and earth did not pass away in the flood - the world and all flesh in it perished.

I didn't say the heavens and earth will pass away in that sense, either. I have said many times that I believe the heavens and earth will be renewed by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth. I don't believe in an entirely new and separate heavens and earth.

He was saying that he return of Christ would come upon us all unexpectedly - and elsewhere Jesus warns us to watch and apostles warn us to be ready:

Exactly.

The fire of God's judgment / wrath.

That occurs after the literal fire comes down on the earth to physically destroy all of His living enemies when Jesus comes.

And there are no scoffers in these boards saying what Peter says the scoffers will be saying. So who are you talking to, actually?

Say what now? I didn't say there were any scoffers on these boards. I don't know what you're talking about here. No one here scoffs at the promise of Christ's second coming. That's one thing we all actually agree on, that He will come again.

Thanks for the exhortation you close off with. If only you wouldn't "interpret" for the saints THE REST of what Peter was talking about (because you just push your own misinterpretation upon the saints yet again).

Can you be more specific? Being vague like this adds nothing to the discussion. What are you talking about here? What is your issue with my interpretation? Jesus, Peter and Paul warn believers about being ready for Him to come as a thief at which point He will physically destroy His enemies. Why else would Jesus and Peter compare what will happen on the day of His return to the flood in Noah's day if He wasn't comparing similar global, physical events?

But thanks for the exhortation, or should I say, the reminder because Jesus and the apostles through the scriptures are the ones still doing the exhorting.

Yes, we see that often. I think some don't take it seriously. I know I do.

May I suggest that it behooves us all to start with not insulting, replying to the posts of the saints in demeaning ways, and making false accusations in boards like this?

Yes, that would be nice.

@Spiritual Israelite Maybe you could give and invite suggestions of what we should be doing - and NOT doing - to be ready?

I'm not saying I even do this as much as I should at times, but we should be praying regularly, reading God's Word regularly, having fellowship with other believers regularly, witnessing to unbelievers, helping the needy regularly and things like that. I'm sure could list several more things we should be doing, but those are some examples.

As far as what we should NOT be doing, I think that would include the following...

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 Therefore, “Come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”.

 

[Zao is life]

I didn't say the heavens and earth will pass away in that sense, either. I have said many times that I believe the heavens and earth will be renewed by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth. I don't believe in an entirely new and separate heavens and earth.


Exactly.


That occurs after the literal fire comes down on the earth to physically destroy all of His living enemies when Jesus comes.


Say what now? I didn't say there were any scoffers on these boards. I don't know what you're talking about here. No one here scoffs at the promise of Christ's second coming. That's one thing we all actually agree on, that He will come again.


Can you be more specific? Being vague like this adds nothing to the discussion. What are you talking about here? What is your issue with my interpretation? Jesus, Peter and Paul warn believers about being ready for Him to come as a thief at which point He will physically destroy His enemies. Why else would Jesus and Peter compare what will happen on the day of His return to the flood in Noah's day if He wasn't comparing similar global, physical events?


Yes, we see that often. I think some don't take it seriously. I know I do.


Yes, that would be nice.


I'm not saying I even do this as much as I should at times, but we should be praying regularly, reading God's Word regularly, having fellowship with other believers regularly, witnessing to unbelievers, helping the needy regularly and things like that. I'm sure could list several more things we should be doing, but those are some examples.

As far as what we should NOT be doing, I think that would include the following...

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 Therefore, “Come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”.

I agree with your list, but I would add that one of the things we need to be praying for is this:

Help me Lord to abide in You and to produce Your fruit, because the fruit of the Spirit is self-control, as well as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance - all goodness and righteousness and truth,

because without You Lord, I can produce no fruit.

And to ask Him for forgiveness, daily.

You never answered the questions I asked:

Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Peter used different words for "the earth" and "the world" when he mentioned the fact that the world perished.

Question: Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

Is your answer:
(a) The heavens and the earth perished in the flood; or
(b) The world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it perished in the flood.
?

Question: Can the meaning of a Greek word used in the New Testament be the same in every verse except one where the same word is used?

(Yes or no).

So let me rephrase that:

Can the meaning of a Greek word used in the New Testament EVER be the same in every verse except one where the same word is used?

(Yes or no).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Peter used different words for "the earth" and "the world" when he mentioned the fact that the world perished.

Question: Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

Is your answer:
(a) The heavens and the earth perished in the flood; or
(b) The world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it perished in the flood.
?

b. Notice the title of this thread. I said "Jesus and Peter taught that the earth will be destroyed unexpectedly on the day Jesus returns just as the earth was destroyed in Noah's day". Was the earth annihilated by the flood? No. It killed all living things on the earth except those that were on the ark. So, by saying the earth will be destroyed like that, am I saying the earth will be annihilated? No, because it was not annihilated by the flood. What I'm saying then is that just as all unbelievers were killed by water in the flood, all unbelievers will be killed by fire when Jesus returns. The result of the burning up of the heavens and the earth will be the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

Question: Can the meaning of a Greek word used in the New Testament be the same in every verse except one where the same word is used?

(Yes or no please).

Yes, of course. If a Greek word has more than one definition, then any of its definitions can potentially be used in the New Testament. There is no requirement that the same definition be used in every verse. Look at the word "zao" that we have been talking about. A vast majority of the time the word is used to describe human beings with bodies, but there are verses where it is used to describe God the Father, who has no body, and at least a few verses (Matt 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38) where it is used to describe all who belong to God including those who are physically/bodily dead like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, of course, I believe it is used in that way in Revelation 20:4 as well. So, just because a vast majority of the time one particular definition of a word is used doesn't mean that is the only definition of that word that can be used in the New Testament.

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

THE SENSE IN WHICH THE ABOVE GREEK WORDS ARE USED WHEREVER ELSE THEY APPEAR IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

Right, but in none of those verses are they used in association with the burning up and dissolving of the heavens and the earth. I don't see you saying anything about context here. It's good to look at how words are used in other verses, of course, but not at the expense of ignoring context. If you're going to claim that the dissolving of the elements is a case of dissolving the rudiments/principles of the world than you need to explain what the dissolving of the heavens means and the burning up of the earth means in conjunction with that.

2. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

Again, in none of those verses is the word used in relation to the heavens, the earth or the elements. The Greek word can refer to things being burned up, melted and/or dissolved, so why can't it be used that way in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

3. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away [parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly".

If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. 2 Peter 3:10 does have heaven and earth passing away suddenly in the sense of them being changed from what they are now to "the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells".

4. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

2 Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

Read 2 Peter 3:10 again. It says the earth itself will be burned up, not just "the works that are therein". It's saying the earth will be burned up which will include the works that are therein.

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

2 Peter 3:7 is referring to literal, physical fire, as I will show (keep reading).

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire [pyro] shall be dissolved [lýō], and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:11-12).

Pyro: πυρόω pyro (Strongs Greek Dictionary 4448):

to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined, (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):--burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

Again, context is key. What kind of fire (pyro) is that talking about? It's not as if that word can't be used to refer to literal, physical fire. It can. We can determine the context from this verse that you referenced earlier:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (pyr: G4442) against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This verse is in direct relation to the second coming of Christ. What kind of fire (pyr) is it referring to in 2 Peter 3:7?

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire (pyr: G4442) and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus said just as literal, physical fire came down on Sodom in Lot's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".

Paul indicated the same thing:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire (pyr) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree with your list, but I would add that one of the things we need to be praying for is this:

Help me Lord to abide in You and to produce Your fruit, because the fruit of the Spirit is self-control, as well as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance - all goodness and righteousness and truth,

because without You Lord, I can produce no fruit.

And to ask Him for forgiveness, daily.

You never answered the questions I asked:

LOL. Here's one other thing you should pray for. Patience. I wasn't done responding to your posts. I just responded to one of them where I answered your questions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

First, let's look at what Jesus taught will happen on the day He returns.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

First, Jesus points out here that "heaven and earth shall pass away and "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only". So, He taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly. Then He pointed out that the flood "took them all away" ("destroyed them all" - Luke 17:27) after Noah entered the ark and He said in relation to that "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" ("Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". - Luke 17:30).

Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly and will destroy all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We know that Peter is talking about something relating to the day of Christ's return in 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 because the context of what he is talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he points out that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming. Their scoffing will be put to an end once and for all when Jesus returns to "destroy them all" like happened with the flood in Noah's day except this time they will all be destroyed by fire.

No one knows the day or hour Jesus will come as a thief in the night to burn up and renew the heavens and the earth by fire, resulting in the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". That's why Peter said "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God". Knowing that the day will come when Jesus takes vengeance on all of His enemies, we need to examine ourselves and make sure that we are ready for that day. As Paul said about that same day, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

Matthew 24:29
Here, Jesus prophesies that celestial events will mark the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of a new era. He describes how the heavenly bodies will be affected, but we should not conclude that their transformation marks their destruction. The sun grows dark, and the moon does not give her light, but the cause of this phenomenon might be smoke in the sky, which would cause the sun to darken and the moon to appear dimmer from the ground.

Matthew 24:30
Here, Jesus explicitly turns our focus to the sky and how it appears from the ground. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and the tribes of the earth (land) will mourn, and see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31
The elect, in this context, are the followers of Jesus, since the Hebrew people are already gathered to witness the Son of Man coming on the clouds. This appears to be the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:32
Here, we have an analogy between future events and the nature of trees during the spring. We can discern the arrival of Spring when the leaves begin to appear on trees.

Matthew 24:33
Just as one can discern when spring is about to arrive, one can discern when Jesus is about to arrive based on the clues Jesus just gave: darkened skies and the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:34
The generation living at that time will not pass away before the Second Advent. Here, Jesus alludes to a gap of time between the rapture of the church and his physical return to earth. All he is willing to say is that the time between the rapture and the Second Advent will not be longer than a single generation.

Matthew 24:35
Although Heaven and Earth will eventually pass away, he isn't suggesting that their cessation will coincide with his return. He intends to declare that his prophetic words are more stable and lasting than the creation itself. For this kind of Image, refer to Isaiah 40:8; 55:10-11 and Jeremiah 33:24-36.

Matthew 24:36
Jesus is referring to the day and hour when the heavenly bodies will be dimmed, the rapture of the church will occur, and those living in Jerusalem will see Him coming on the clouds. No one knows when that will take place except the Father alone.

Matthew 24:37
Jesus draws an indirect comparison between his coming and the days of Noah. His simile compares some aspect of his arrival with the days of Noah and he will explain how they are similar.

Matthew 24:38
The key point about the days of Noah is that those who faced death and destruction were completely unaware of what was coming. They were busy with everyday activities like eating, drinking, marrying, and celebrating. The flood arrived while people were engaged in these typical, joyful moments of life.

Matthew 24:39
The phrase "they did not understand until..." implies a realization or comprehension that occurred only after a specific event, experience, or point in time. It suggests that people won't understand what is happening until the very moment when Jesus arrives.

Matthew 24:40
The flood event had two different distinct outcomes, depending on whether someone was in the Ark or outside the Ark. Likewise, the Second Advent will have two different and distinct outcomes for those in Jerusalem, depending on how someone is situated concerning faith in Jesus Christ and God.

(See next post.)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly and will destroy all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns.

2 Peter 3:3
The apostle proposes that there is a reason behind mocking others. Often, people mock to shift attention away from their vulnerabilities or shortcomings. In the end times, some individuals will attempt to distract others from their excessive desires and behaviors.

2 Peter 3:4
Peter's discussion will focus on the period immediately preceding the Lord's return, which he describes as the "last days." The key question during this time will revolve around the perceived delay of the Lord's coming. The state of the world appears to remain unchanged for hundreds of years. Does this delay and inactivity suggest that He may not return after all?

2 Peter 3:5
Here, the Apostle begins his case against the steady-state assumption of the world held by the mockers. In the beginning, by the word of God, the world was formed out of water and by water.

2 Peter 3:6
Then, much later in time, at the word of God, the world system was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:7
In the future, the current world system will be destroyed with fire. The current world system will be kept for a day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8
In this passage, the apostle elaborates on the profound distinction between human perception of time and the divine experience of it. As human beings, we often find ourselves grappling with impatience as we await outcomes, feeling the weight of each passing moment. In stark contrast, God exists in a realm of eternity, unshackled by the limitations that time imposes on our lives. To Him, the concept of time holds no significance, nor is it a source of frustration or urgency. Whether a single day passes or a millennium unfolds, it matters not to the Creator, for in His eternal nature, time becomes a mere abstraction. In essence, for an infinite being, moments blend into one another, rendering the passage of time nearly inconsequential.

2 Peter 3:9
God doesn't count "slowness" the way we count slowness. What appears to be a delay is actually patience toward us, waiting for us to repent because he wishes that none should perish.

2 Peter 3:10
Peter invites his readers to assess the relevance of this world system in comparison to what will endure into the next age. Since this world system will be destroyed by fire, then what eternal value does it hold, if any?

2 Peter 3:11
What sort of people ought we to be, given that most things in this world we take for granted will not survive into the next age? There is a lot of value in this world but very little will survive the fires.

2 Peter 3:12
Since we find little of eternal value in this world, we should think and act like those who value the coming age more, embracing holiness and goodness in anticipation of that day.

2 Peter 3:13
The most essential characteristic of the New Heavens and the New Earth is righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@CadyandZoe What is the reason that you decided to just quote scripture without any commentary? What purpose does that serve?

Matthew 24:29
Here, Jesus prophesies that celestial events will mark the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of a new era. He describes how the heavenly bodies will be affected, but we should not conclude that their transformation marks their destruction. The sun grows dark, and the moon does not give her light, but the cause of this phenomenon might be smoke in the sky, which would cause the sun to darken and the moon to appear dimmer from the ground.

Matthew 24:30
Here, Jesus explicitly turns our focus to the sky and how it appears from the ground. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and the tribes of the earth (land) will mourn, and see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31
The elect, in this context, are the followers of Jesus, since the Hebrew people are already gathered to witness the Son of Man coming on the clouds. This appears to be the rapture of the church.

What do you mean "the Hebrew people are already gathered to witness the Son of Man coming on the clouds"?

I agree that this refers to the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:32
Here, we have an analogy between future events and the nature of trees during the spring. We can discern the arrival of Spring when the leaves begin to appear on trees.

Matthew 24:33
Just as one can discern when spring is about to arrive, one can discern when Jesus is about to arrive

Agree.

based on the clues Jesus just gave: darkened skies and the rapture of the church.

The rapture of the church happens when He arrives "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). It's not a sign of His soon arrival, it shows that He has arrived.

Matthew 24:34
The generation living at that time will not pass away before the Second Advent. Here, Jesus alludes to a gap of time between the rapture of the church and his physical return to earth. All he is willing to say is that the time between the rapture and the Second Advent will not be longer than a single generation.

I completely disagree with this. Nowhere does Jesus allude at all to returning to earth. We will meet Him "in the air", at which point what is described in the verses that follow this one occurs (heaven and earth passing away with Jesus destroying all unbelievers just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood).

Matthew 24:35
Although Heaven and Earth will eventually pass away, he isn't suggesting that their cessation will coincide with his return.

Yes, He most certainly is. In the very next verse He says "of that day and hour knows no man". What day and hour? The day and hour of His second coming when this generation and heaven and earth will pass away.

Matthew 24:36
Jesus is referring to the day and hour when the heavenly bodies will be dimmed, the rapture of the church will occur, and those living in Jerusalem will see Him coming on the clouds. No one knows when that will take place except the Father alone.

Why only those living in Jerusalem seeing Him? It says the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven at that time (Mark 13:24-27), so it's clearly a global event and not one limited in scope to Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:37
Jesus draws an indirect comparison between his coming and the days of Noah. His simile compares some aspect of his arrival with the days of Noah and he will explain how they are similar.

Matthew 24:38
The key point about the days of Noah is that those who faced death and destruction were completely unaware of what was coming. They were busy with everyday activities like eating, drinking, marrying, and celebrating. The flood arrived while people were engaged in these typical, joyful moments of life.

Agree.

Matthew 24:39
The phrase "they did not understand until..." implies a realization or comprehension that occurred only after a specific event, experience, or point in time. It suggests that people won't understand what is happening until the very moment when Jesus arrives.

Is that your only takeaway from that verse?

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus specifically pointed out how the flood "took them all away" and said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". So, He was saying just as unbelievers were all destroyed in Noah's day, that will happen at the coming of the Son of man as well. That lines up with heaven and earth passing away at that time since the earth passing away would result in all unbelievers being destroyed just as happened with the flood in Noah's day.

Matthew 24:40
The flood event had two different distinct outcomes, depending on whether someone was in the Ark or outside the Ark. Likewise, the Second Advent will have two different and distinct outcomes for those in Jerusalem, depending on how someone is situated concerning faith in Jesus Christ and God.

Only those in Jerusalem? Why do you think that Jesus was comparing a local event to a global event there? No, He was comparing one global event with another just like Peter compared the same two events here:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Like Jesus, Peter referred to ignorant people around the world being around when Jesus comes, having no clue about what is about to happen to them, and then fire will come down on them throughout the earth and destroy them just like the floodwaters destroyed everyone not on the ark in Noah's day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 3:3
The apostle proposes that there is a reason behind mocking others. Often, people mock to shift attention away from their vulnerabilities or shortcomings. In the end times, some individuals will attempt to distract others from their excessive desires and behaviors.

2 Peter 3:4
Peter's discussion will focus on the period immediately preceding the Lord's return, which he describes as the "last days." The key question during this time will revolve around the perceived delay of the Lord's coming. The state of the world appears to remain unchanged for hundreds of years. Does this delay and inactivity suggest that He may not return after all?

2 Peter 3:5
Here, the Apostle begins his case against the steady-state assumption of the world held by the mockers. In the beginning, by the word of God, the world was formed out of water and by water.

2 Peter 3:6
Then, much later in time, at the word of God, the world system was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:7
In the future, the current world system will be destroyed with fire. The current world system will be kept for a day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly men.

Why is it that you can't see that the scoffers of the last days who were clueless about what was coming are just like those who are eating, drinking and marrying that Jesus referred to in the days before His second coming? Why can't you see that the destruction that Jesus talked about and compared to the flood in Noah's day is the same future destruction that Peter compared to the flood in Noah's day? Yet, Peter clearly indicated that Christ's second coming will be a global event. You even say yourself that 2 Peter 3:7, which is talking about what will happen at Christ's second coming to those who scoff at the promise of His second coming, refers to a worldwide event. Yet, you try to say that the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:37-39, which is the same event as 2 Peter 3:7, only refers to something that will happen in Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:8
In this passage, the apostle elaborates on the profound distinction between human perception of time and the divine experience of it. As human beings, we often find ourselves grappling with impatience as we await outcomes, feeling the weight of each passing moment. In stark contrast, God exists in a realm of eternity, unshackled by the limitations that time imposes on our lives. To Him, the concept of time holds no significance, nor is it a source of frustration or urgency. Whether a single day passes or a millennium unfolds, it matters not to the Creator, for in His eternal nature, time becomes a mere abstraction. In essence, for an infinite being, moments blend into one another, rendering the passage of time nearly inconsequential.

Finally, a Premill who actually interprets this verse correctly. I agree completely. This verse refers to the fact that the Lord exists in the realm of eternity and therefore a day, a thousand years or any amount of time makes no difference to Him. Most Premills try to relate this verse to Revelation 20 just because it references a thousand years, but the context of this verse has nothing to do with the context of Revelation 20.

2 Peter 3:9
God doesn't count "slowness" the way we count slowness. What appears to be a delay is actually patience toward us, waiting for us to repent because he wishes that none should perish.

Agree. I figure I might as well agree with any comment you make that I agree with since we normally disagree on almost everything.

2 Peter 3:10
Peter invites his readers to assess the relevance of this world system in comparison to what will endure into the next age. Since this world system will be destroyed by fire, then what eternal value does it hold, if any?

Where does Peter refer to "the world system" there? He refers specifically to the heavens, the earth (and the works therein) and the elements being burned up and dissolved. How does that equate to this world system being destroyed by fire? What does the world system being destroyed by fire mean exactly?

Why does Peter compare this event to the flood in Noah's day in 2 Peter 3:6-7 if He is not comparing like events in the sense of comparing one literal global destruction event to another?

2 Peter 3:11
What sort of people ought we to be, given that most things in this world we take for granted will not survive into the next age? There is a lot of value in this world but very little will survive the fires.

What exactly do you think will survive the fires?

2 Peter 3:12
Since we find little of eternal value in this world, we should think and act like those who value the coming age more, embracing holiness and goodness in anticipation of that day.

2 Peter 3:13
The most essential characteristic of the New Heavens and the New Earth is righteousness.

How about where Peter indicates in verse 13 that we look for the new heavens and new earth in accordance with "His promise"? I think it's clear that "His promise refers to "the promise of His coming":

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The Lord is not slack according to the promise of His coming.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, it's clear to me that what Peter was saying is that we look for the new heavens and new earth in accordance with the promise of His second coming.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why do Premills instead look for an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with His second coming when we should be looking for the new heavens and new earth in accordance with His second coming?

 

[ScottA]

First, let's look at what Jesus taught will happen on the day He returns.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

First, Jesus points out here that "heaven and earth shall pass away and "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only". So, He taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly. Then He pointed out that the flood "took them all away" ("destroyed them all" - Luke 17:27) after Noah entered the ark and He said in relation to that "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" ("Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". - Luke 17:30).

Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly and will destroy all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We know that Peter is talking about something relating to the day of Christ's return in 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 because the context of what he is talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he points out that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming. Their scoffing will be put to an end once and for all when Jesus returns to "destroy them all" like happened with the flood in Noah's day except this time they will all be destroyed by fire.

No one knows the day or hour Jesus will come as a thief in the night to burn up and renew the heavens and the earth by fire, resulting in the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". That's why Peter said "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God". Knowing that the day will come when Jesus takes vengeance on all of His enemies, we need to examine ourselves and make sure that we are ready for that day. As Paul said about that same day, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

All reasonable deductions. However the greatest question, and where the key to the whole matter lies, is not in the "what" or the "how" of Jesus' return, but the "when."

Wherein, the first thing that needs to be taken to heart, is "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Luke 12:40). Those are the terms of the whole matter, including the "what" and the "how." In other words, what ever we think is true, probably isn't.

If and when we can seriously and faithfully accept that, we might all come together with our different ideas of when Jesus might come again--and agree that all of those are least likely to be true.

When and if we can do that, what remains is nothing from us or by our own understanding, but everything from God.

But who is willing?

 

[Davidpt]

Nowhere does Jesus allude at all to returning to earth

LOL.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


And what would like manner look like in reverse? If He starts out being bodily upon the earth then ascending into the sky, and if someone had recorded that on video, for example, then played it back in reverse, it is absurd that in reverse it wouldn't show Him touching down on the earth. Yeah, right. lol

It would be like a plane that is on a runway in Dallas, Texas, and it is leaving for New York and that it eventually returns to this same airport in like manner. In like manner would mean after it leaves Dallas and lands in New York, it then leaves New York and returns to Dallas. It is absurd that it can return to Dallas in like manner without ever touching down in the airport it intially left and was expected to return to.

Your idea of like manner is apparently this. Jesus is initially bodily upon the earth then ascends into the sky. And then when He returns in like manner He never touches down on the ground, lol. You are cutting that part out because of your doctrinal bias'. And like I pointed out, had anyone recorded that on video at the time, and yes I know they didn't have things like that back then, yet that is beside the point, and if they played that in reverse it would show Jesus then setting foot on the earth. You can't expect to be taken seriously whatsoever if you insist that this, if played in reverse would not show Him setting foot back on earth. In reverse it would show Him descending not ascending. And it would show Him touching down on the earth. It's that simple. Seriously.

BTW, it's easy to debunk the nonsense you come up with from time to time because of your doctrinal bias', such as, Nowhere does Jesus allude at all to returning to earth

BTW. In Acts 1:11 even though Jesus Himself did not say those things, His angels did. Which then means in 1 Thessolanians 1:4, what is coming down must come all the way down. Just because they are meeting in the air does not mean that Jesus returns to heaven at the time, which I'm pretty sure you already agree with.

In the same manner, when Jesus initially left, He did not remain in limbo in the sky wondering where to to go. He continued ascending until He reached His destination, heaven in this case. And when He leaves heaven He will continue descending until He touches down where He initially left. Meaning literally in that same region, meaning on the mount of Olives. IOW, He's not going to be in limbo in the sky above wondering what to do, where to go. Only per your theology would He be confused like that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe What is the reason that you decided to just quote scripture without any commentary? What purpose does that serve?

I apologize. This topic required several posts. So my strategy is to break them up into manageable sizes. I fully intend to offer more commentary in subsequent posts. But I ran out of time yesterday.

What do you mean "the Hebrew people are already gathered to witness the Son of Man coming on the clouds"?

I base this on my study of Joel, Malachi, and Isaiah. They each paint the same picture using different wording. God will test Israel one last time. He will bring on them a series of "natural" disasters, causing famine and starvation. The call will go out to all of Israel to come to Jerusalem to pray for the nation's survival. Then God will bring his armies of fire to incinerate everyone and everything remaining behind. Only those who come to Jerusalem and call upon the name of the lord will be saved. At this time, the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky, and Israel will mourn.

The rapture of the church happens when He arrives "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). It's not a sign of His soon arrival, it shows that He has arrived.

The specific meaning of "parousia" can vary depending on the context, but it generally refers to a significant or official visit or presence. Jesus came to Jerusalem many times. But one could argue that his only "official" visit took place when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey as recorded in Matthew 21:6-11 The children sang the Hosanna and said, "Blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord." Later in Matthew 23, Jesus proclaims "woes" on Jerusalem, followed by this prediction.

Matthew 23:38-39 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Presumably, Jerusalem will welcome Jesus into the city, and once again, they will say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!". Somehow, after 2000+ years, they recognize him and bless him. This event is the official Second coming.

I completely disagree with this. Nowhere does Jesus allude at all to returning to earth. We will meet Him "in the air", at which point what is described in the verses that follow this one occurs (heaven and earth passing away with Jesus destroying all unbelievers just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood).

I agree; we meet him in the air. But he also comes back to earth for his official arrival. Jesus predicted that Jerusalem will once again give him an official welcome, saying, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" Jesus also promised the Twelve apostles that they would be seated on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes. (Luke 22:30)

Yes, He most certainly is. In the very next verse He says "of that day and hour knows no man". What day and hour? The day and hour of His second coming when this generation and heaven and earth will pass away.

Does verse 29 sound like a total destruction of the heavenly bodies (a new heavens)? A sky filled with smoke or even clouds can easily explain the phenomenon. No? Would a million people gathered over Jerusalem not block out the sun and moon?

Why only those living in Jerusalem seeing Him?

Jesus predicts that the tribes of the "earth" will mourn when they see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky. In both Hebrew and Greek, the word for "earth" is the same word for "land." I believe this is a reference to Zechariah 12, where is is written that "they will look on me whom they pierced."

Jesus specifically pointed out how the flood "took them all away" and said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

I agree. But remember, Jesus also said that some would be taken while others would be left. Where? The vultures are gathered around the body, which lies on the ground. This is a local judgment of people living in Israel, not a judgment of the entire world. The prophet Malachi also predicts this same event in terms of fire. At the very same time that the fire destroys evil-doers, the sun of righteousness rises with healing in its wings. Just like the flood event, this event has two different outcomes, depending on how one is spiritually situated.

Only those in Jerusalem? Why do you think that Jesus was comparing a local event to a global event there?

Jesus mentions two events: Noah's flood and the destruction of Sodom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All reasonable deductions.

I appreciate you saying that even if you disagree. We could use more of that on this forum.

However the greatest question, and where the key to the whole matter lies, is not in the "what" or the "how" of Jesus' return, but the "when."

Not sure how you decided that, but okay.

Wherein, the first thing that needs to be taken to heart, is "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Luke 12:40). Those are the terms of the whole matter, including the "what" and the "how." In other words, what ever we think is true, probably isn't.

Why is it that whatever we think is true probably isn't just because we don't know the day or hour He will come?

If and when we can seriously and faithfully accept that, we might all come together with our different ideas of when Jesus might come again--and agree that all of those are least likely to be true.

I'm not sure why I need to accept that whatever I think is true probably isn't. I don't accept that.

When and if we can do that, what remains is nothing from us or by our own understanding, but everything from God.

What I think is from what I see taught in God's Word, so maybe I'm already doing what you're saying we should do? You're not easy to follow.

But who is willing?

If you're asking who is willing to accept that their interpretations of scripture are not likely true? Not me. If you were asking who was willing to rely on God for understanding and not ourselves, then I would say that I am willing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I apologize. This topic required several posts. So my strategy is to break them up into manageable sizes. I fully intend to offer more commentary in subsequent posts. But I ran out of time yesterday.

No, that was fine. I meant to delete that comment after posting it, but somehow I didn't end up actually doing that. I didn't realize at first that you weren't actually quoting the verses at all, but putting the verse references and then adding your commentary next to each verse.