James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet from creation it is the most widespread gospel on earth.

Its sad after thousands of years. we are so weak and gullible we still fall for the same trap of legalism and pride.

Speaking of pride:

Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…”

James 4:6 says,
“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

Obviously somebody who thinks they can sin and still be saved is not being humble.
For both Jesus and Paul warned against the spiritual destruction one will face if they justify sin (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 8:13, 1 Timothy 5:8, and Titus 1:16). This is exactly what Perpetual Belief Alone-ism or OSAS (Eternal Security) does. It sets up a safety net to sin on some level (Thereby turning God’s grace into a license for immorality).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This thing that you keep repeating is false. And once again, I'll point out that you hold to the exact same thinking, only that you rate according to how long your sin is ongoing. It's as if sin up to this much is OK, but over that line not OK.

You are assuming depravity in the recreated heart, and that is wrong. Jesus KNEW where He had come from, and where He was returning to. He KNEW He would not fall to sin. He KNEW He would not fail to overcome. And that did not give Him any such license.

Your argument rests on the notion that the only way to make a child of God stop sinning is throught threats of hellfire, I say the Holy Spirit changes a man. And knowing that I'm forever changed by no means somehow makes me into someone who doesn't care whether I sin or not.

Tell me . . . what is the true heart-value of coerced obedience? Isn't the higher calling to live obedient lives because we rejoice to do so? Because we love others so much that we don't want to rob them of the service we can give them by wasting our life and love on fleshy pursuits? Whether drunkenness or divisiveness, or whatever it is, it robs our lives of precious time to share God's love with mankind.


And what gives you the right to say such things? This to you is righteousness?

Ad hominem, inaccurate, malignant.

Listen to you as you try to convince me of your "truth".

Much love!

You can also try to put up a smokescreen that a believer is a changed person beyond their control all you like, but it does not undo the problem of your view that a believer does not lose salvation when they sin and or at the very least endanger their salvation status with God. The moment you take away any consequences of sin (Which is death), is the moment a believer will justify sin on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not). For it’s why the Bible warns against those who do turn God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Also, Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why are we told this if we are changed beyond our control to live that holy life automatically until the end? It makes no sense. We are to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). How does that verse even work in your belief? It simply doesn’t. You cannot believe verses like Philippians 2:12 and or 1 Timothy 6:12 without altering what they plainly say.

 

[marks]

You can also try to put up a smokescreen that a believer is changed person beyond their control all you like, but it does not undo the problem of your view that a believer does not lose salvation when they sin and or at the very least endanger their salvation status with God. The moment you take away any consequences of sin (Which is death), is the moment a believer will justify sin on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not). For it’s why the Bible warns against those who do turn God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Also, Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why are we told this if we are changed beyond our control to live that holy life automatically until the end? It makes no sense. We are to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). How does that verse even work in your belief? It simply doesn’t. You cannot believe verses like Philippians 2:12 and or 1 Timothy 6:12 without altering what they plainly say.

What makes no sense is to keep claiming verses say things they don't, and to think that you can add to what Jesus did.

To think that God has to threaten and coerce when in fact He invites us come, and be forgiven, and free.

And you really and truly do not know my mind such that you should presume to know what and how I think. And don't think I'm going to become defensive because you continue to provoke, and insinuate, and whatever.

Sure . . . I can't believe . . . I just want to think . . . on and on it goes, trust me, I've heard it all, and when someone talks that way, where is the representation of Spiritual fruit?

And again here you insinuate that my understanding of God's grace is just being soft on sin. Such hogwash!

Those who say such things must not have anything real to say, or so it seems to me.

The moment you take away any consequences of sin (Which is death), is the moment a believer will justify sin on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not).

That may be your life, but again, where is the power of the Holy Spirit to change you? It's not threats of death, but the power of a new life.

Jesus came to set you free from sin and death and fear and all that fleshy stuff, but be it to you according to your faith. If you don't believe it, you won't walk in it.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The bible teaches those born again will never die and have eternal life

The Bible teaches that there are those who are twice dead plucked up by the roots (See: Jude 1:12).
Obviously a person who is dead twice was once dead spiritually before they came to Christ and they died again spiritually a second time by their turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).
Their roots they planted in believing God’s Word was plucked up.

You teach conditional life

No. The Bible teaches Conditional Life or Conditional Salvation (See again 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

The bible teaches that it is either grace or works. It is not, nor it is ever, both. In fact, it says one cancels out another

Romans 11:6 was never intended to be taken as referring to the whole life of the believer. In context, Paul was referring to Israel who needed to accept the Messiah by being Initially saved by God’s grace in Romans 9-11. Nowhere is Paul suggesting that we can sin and still be saved or not worry about how we live after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul makes it clear in Romans 6:1-2 that we should not continue in sin so that grace may abound. Meaning, grace cannot abound if we continue in sin.

You can post these long winded posts all you want.

The Word of God that I posted will not return void.
May the Lord Jesus get all the glory for any good He has worked through me involving His Word here.

You can label people all you want.

I only label a person based on what they said they believe.
If that’s not what they really believe and I am misunderstanding them, I am happy to adjust it if they speak up so as to clarify.
I have done so in the past, and I am willing to do so again.
But you also label people, too. There is nothing wrong in doing so.
The issue is whether or not our labels are true or not.

You can claim you are not teaching the same gospel as someone else all you want.

It dsoes not make you right.

Well, I believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and nothing else.
I believe the gospel is: Believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day (for our salvation).
This belief in the gospel plays in harmony with leading us to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus in prayer desiring to be forgiven by Him according to Romans 10:6-17.

T. Bass believes that the gospel includes water baptism (Which is something I strongly disagree with because water baptism would be a work).
Such an understanding of the gospel contradicts 1 Corinthians 1:17 (of which I am sure you will agree).

I believe I have demonstrated that my belief is clearly different than the belief of T. Bass.
T. Bass believes a belief or faith cannot exist without works. You said we both believe in faith plus works. T. Bass does not believe in faith plus works. A more accurate description of the belief of T. Bass here would be “faith = works,” or “faith only exists if it is mingled with works only.” I don’t believe that way because I believe in Temporal Belief Alone-ism. I believe Belief Alone-ism applies only temporarily when we first come to saving faith in Jesus Christ and this process of salvation is without the deeds of the law or works. Belief Alone-ism or Grace also only applies when dealing with sin that may occasionally crop in the life of the believer if they confess of their sins to the Lord Jesus Christ (while they are perfecting themselves in the Sanctification Process by what they begun in the Holy Spirit (So as to live a holy life or in bring forth the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, and peace)).

Once again. You cause the word of God to contradict.

The trinity is found. salvation by grace plus works is not found.

This is a great point about bringing up the Trinity. Many have a hard time resolving the Trinity because it seems contradictory in that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also exists as three distinct persons. The same is true with salvation. It may appear that it is a contradiction that we are first saved by God’s grace without works and to later then be saved in the Sanctification Process by the Spirit of God that does involve works, but we know that the Bible says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). While it is true that we need to believe the gospel in the fact that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day (for our salvation) according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we also have to answer the call of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 in that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth, too (Granted 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel, but it is merely the call of the gospel). However, … both are true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What makes no sense is to keep claiming verses say things they don't, and to think that you can add to what Jesus did.

To think that God has to threaten and coerce when in fact He invites us come, and be forgiven, and free.

And you really and truly do not know my mind such that you should presume to know what and how I think. And don't think I'm going to become defensive because you continue to provoke, and insinuate, and whatever.

Sure . . . I can't believe . . . I just want to think . . . on and on it goes, trust me, I've heard it all, and when someone talks that way, where is the representation of Spiritual fruit?

And again here you insinuate that my understanding of God's grace is just being soft on sin. Such hogwash!

Those who say such things must not have anything real to say, or so it seems to me.

The moment you take away any consequences of sin (Which is death), is the moment a believer will justify sin on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not).

That may be your life, but again, where is the power of the Holy Spirit to change you? It's not threats of death, but the power of a new life.

Jesus came to set you free from sin and death and fear and all that fleshy stuff, but be it to you according to your faith. If you don't believe it, you won't walk in it.

Much love!

You are not fooling anyone who is truly seeking to do the right thing. Jesus said everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Jesus warned against how looking upon a woman in lust will cause a person to be in danger of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). Paul listed various sins and said that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for responding. I appreciate your apparent soundness of Scripture, which is no doubt due to you acknowledging justification by works and not by faith alone.

However, you have bypassed the main point: There is no temporal difference between faith and obedience in the heart.

The doctrine of 'faith first and then works' is based solely upon the natural reasoning in this life between inward faith and outward works, but does not acknowledge the spiritual kingdom, where there is no such timeline difference in the heart: God sees the heart first, and commands obedience inwardly before seeking to obey Him outwardly.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

We cannot obey Him from a pure heart bodily, if we are not first obeying Him in the heart spiritually, to purify the heart by His power to become sons of God.

you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Works of faith are by obedience to the faith. Obedience begins in the heart, where we first begin to obey Him by purging our hearts from lust and thoughts for sins of the flesh

Romans 10:16 equates “obeyed the gospel” with “believed.”

True, they have not believed who have not obeyed, which proves the point: there is no believing without obeying, beginning in the heart.

I will respond to your other points in another post.

Well, for me: One of the clearest examples in the Bible of having a belief without works (for initial salvation) is in Romans 4:9-12 with it pointing back to Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:9-12
“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

Romans 4:3
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Romans 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham believing God was reckoned (or accounted for) righteousness while he was yet uncircumcised (Note: circumcision is a work). If believe in Romans 4:3 means a work of faith involving the New Testament (and thus it is not a man centered self righteous work) it would destroy the whole idea or analogy that Paul was making in this chapter and elsewhere (involving belief vs. works). So yes. It’s true, we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works AND THEN…. We enter the Sanctification Process by abiding in the Holy Spirit so as to live a holy life by putting away sin, doing good works, and keeping ourselves pure and unspotted from this world.

When you read Romans 11:6, you cannot in good conscience read this verse as referring to the word “works” as exclusively to the Law of Moses alone (while the works of the New Testament don’t count). Romans 9-11 is Paul referring to his wish in seeing Israel saved (i.e. Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace). The whole focus here is how they approached things by the Law and not by faith.

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:1-4).

Romans 9:31-32
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

When Paul speaks in Romans 11:6, he contrasts grace with law. He says it is no more grace if it be of works and it is no more works if it be of grace. This has to be referring to all forms of works based on what those words actually mean. For when we think about grace, it is the exact opposite of works (When we think of the word “works”). But is Romans 11:6 referring to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism? No. We both know there are many other warnings in Scripture about how we must live holy or we are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. So Romans 11:6 is referring to how we first get saved and it is not speaking about the second aspect of salvation.

For can you honestly say that Romans 11:6 is one of your favorite verses?
Or is it a verse that makes you squirm or feel uneasy when you read it?
In other words, we have to reconcile all the verses in the Bible in a way that sits right with our soul wherein we rejoice in all of Scripture.

Anyways, I am not the only one who believes that there are two major aspects of salvation that Christians need to be focused on in this life. Others have discovered this truth on their own with God, as well.

https://mygospel.info/initial-and-final-salvation/

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

In the opening passage of this thread, if you believe that you have no idea what you are on about. James is talking to people who are in fact worthy Christians who know what James is on about and not idiots.
James is written in the first century ?
Read the start of the AKJV regarding the Book. It starts off with. Faith without works cannot be called faith. "Faith without the works is dead".
(2:26), and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all.
Faith must work; it must produce; etc.

Faith endures trials. Trials come and go, but a strong faith will face the head-on and develop endurance. etc etc.
you must read it all. before you read James.

 

[kcnalp]

John 11:26 (NKJV)
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, for me: One of the clearest examples in the Bible of having a belief without works (for initial salvation) is in Romans 4:9-12 with it pointing back to Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:9-12
“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

Romans 4:3
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Romans 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham believing God was reckoned (or accounted for) righteousness while he was yet uncircumcised (Note: circumcision is a work). If believe in Romans 4:3 means a work of faith involving the New Testament (and thus it is not a man centered self righteous work) it would destroy the whole idea or analogy that Paul was making in this chapter and elsewhere (involving belief vs. works). So yes. It’s true, we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works AND THEN…. We enter the Sanctification Process by abiding in the Holy Spirit so as to live a holy life by putting away sin, doing good works, and keeping ourselves pure and unspotted from this world.

When you read Romans 11:6, you cannot in good conscience read this verse as referring to the word “works” as exclusively to the Law of Moses alone (while the works of the New Testament don’t count). Romans 9-11 is Paul referring to his wish in seeing Israel saved (i.e. Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace). The whole focus here is how they approached things by the Law and not by faith.

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:1-4).

Romans 9:31-32
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

When Paul speaks in Romans 11:6, he contrasts grace with law. He says it is no more grace if it be of works and it is no more works if it be of grace. This has to be referring to all forms of works based on what those words actually mean. For when we think about grace, it is the exact opposite of works (When we think of the word “works”). But is Romans 11:6 referring to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism? No. We both know there are many other warnings in Scripture about how we must live holy or we are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. So Romans 11:6 is referring to how we first get saved and it is not speaking about the second aspect of salvation.

For can you honestly say that Romans 11:6 is one of your favorite verses?
Or is it a verse that makes you squirm or feel uneasy when you read it?
In other words, we have to reconcile all the verses in the Bible in a way that sits right with our soul wherein we rejoice in all of Scripture.

Anyways, I am not the only one who believes that there are two major aspects of salvation that Christians need to be focused on in this life. Others have discovered this truth on their own with God, as well.

https://mygospel.info/initial-and-final-salvation/

Well, for me:

Well, for you, at this time you have no answer to the simple point of obedience in the heart first, and then obedience with the body.

I appreciate your study and clarity, but until you do so, it remains a true counter to your two-aspect theory of salvation.

Obedience in the heart first and before obedience of the body is the cornerstone of God's covenant with man, which could not be accomplished by the law of Moses, but is commanded in the law the Christ, and is the reason why the Jews of old were offended and rejected Jesus as the Christ:

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus told them plainly all their works of righteousness seeking to fulfill the law of God were as filthy rags, so long as their hearts remained unpurified of lust.

This remains true today for Christians keeping hearts of lust, and not obeying God to purify our hearts and so cleanse our hands.

The only thing in Scripture that ever comes first, before walking in works of God's righteousness, is obeying His faith in the heart:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Anyways, I am not the only one who believes that there are two major aspects of salvation that Christians need to be focused on in this life. Others have discovered this truth on their own with God, as well.

Ture, but consensus is not a confirmation of truth of Scripture. Until obedience to the faith beginning in the heart is countered, then your two-aspects theory of salvation remains unproven, since no such Scripture says it plainly.

The only 'two-aspects' teaching of Scripture is salvation and justification, not salvation by faith first and then continuing with works of the body.

You need also consider that such a teaching not only makes faith first before and apart from works, but also of necessity makes salvation first before and apart from justification, since we are justified by works.

If we are saved first before and apart from works, and we are justified by works, then we can only be saved first before and apart from being justified.

So, we would need to see Scripture where we can be saved first without being justified.

Until then, there is no separation between faith and works with God, no more than there is separation between His salvation and justification.

Further, since both are by grace, then your teaching separates the work of grace in salvation from the work of grace for justification.

Simply put, once the temporal understanding of natural works of the body following inward thought, is enlightened with the Spirit of Christ, then we understand with God the first works are inward with the heart by faith, followed by walking in His righteousness outwardly:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I hope you do address obedience in the heart first. After all, there may be a solution for your theory to be confirmed as possibly truth with Scripture.

I believe you have the mind for Scripture that can do so. You've already quoted a Scripture that suggests a solution.

 

[robert derrick]

Yet you label me and T-Bass.

You are being dishonest my friend.


Both of you teach our essential salvation is accomplished by works. Just because you add the word initially (not found in scripture by the way) does not mean you teach different.

Both of you teach our essential salvation is accomplished by works.

They teach with works following. Until we quote others correctly, rather than putting our false spin on it, then we can't possibly correct them.

In any case, we are justified by works.

Just because you add the word initially (not found in scripture by the way) does not mean you teach different.

I agree. When certain 'words' not found in Scripture, are used to support teaching, then their use is immediately suspect. If the doctrine is true, then we ought use the words of Scripture proving it is true.

1. Licentious - a person says something like a sinners prayer and believes in Christ. But there is no faith. These are the people James gave a warning to in chapter 2

Since 'believes Christ' contradicts 'there is no faith', then the best way to put it is: hearers that only agree Jesus is Christ, but do not obey Him as Christ the Lord.

2. Grace through faith in the work of God based on hearing the word and taking these words of life and being born again.

'Taking these words' would be receiving the engrafted word, which is only in the good ground that keeps the word to do it.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Good ground is that which keeps the word, which is to do it and keep His commandments.

Receiving without doing is hearing only: they are agreeable to it, but not unto obeying it.

3. Legalism work based. These people claim that salvation begins, is maintained or in the end fulfilled based on our works (or lack of works)

All works are anathema to being saved by faith alone. They refuse to make difference between doing 'our works' of righteousness from an unclean heart vs doing God's works of righteousness with a pure heart.

'Based on' being another purposed misrepresentation of what is actually taught: Salvation is by grace through faith with God's works being maintained to be justified by grace with God.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Without works there is no fruitfulness, without which there is no good ground to be saved.

person 1 believes in no faith or works

Which is not possible. No man can believe in no faith.

person 2 believes in grace alone through faith in the work of God alone

I.e. salvation by faith alone, which is dead, being unfruitful without works maintained unto the end.

2 is 1 in truth: Believing in salvation by faith alone, without believing in justification by works: Hearers and agreers only.

Person 3 believes in faith plus works.

The only saying 'plus works' are #2, who always falsely represents the 4th person:

Person 4 believes in Jesus as the Christ to love and obey Him as Lord with a whole pure heart.

Person 5: Like Jews of old, them seeking to do the law, without believing the law is good at all, but only necessary to keep from transgression and death: Paul's rebuke of works only without faith nor love.

O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

Person 6: Them that hear the word and reject Jesus as the Christ: hearers that believe not the gospel at all. Unbelievers. Heathen.

You and T-Bass fall into category number 3.

No, they are Number 4, but are not expressing it accurately.

Along with the many other works based religions we see in christianity and the world religious system.

I.e. they are equated as heathen in false religions, whether monotheistic or pagan. All because they believe and obey the Scripture as written: doing the word to be justified in the word of faith.

In fact. this gospel of works is the most widely spread gospel in the world.

The gospel of works only, would include unbelieving Jews and Christians who seek to obey it, but don't believe nor love it, which is just as foolish as the other gospel most widely spread in the world:

Yours. The gospel of faith alone which is dead, being without justification by works, which is the licentious, as opposed to the legalist.

The legalist seeks to do their own righteousness, and you seek to do your own good works: Both are without first purifying the heart by the faith of Jesus to love and obey Him with all the heart and soul.


Just remember, it is not me calling you or anyone a fool.

I am saying you are believing in another gospel of dead faith alone than the apostles preached, that is not another, but is accursed.

You are also falsely accusing the brethren that believe in God's justification by His works of righteousness, and equating them with unbelievers of false religions of the world.

 

[robert derrick]

In the opening passage of this thread, if you believe that you have no idea what you are on about. James is talking to people who are in fact worthy Christians who know what James is on about and not idiots.
James is written in the first century ?
Read the start of the AKJV regarding the Book. It starts off with. Faith without works cannot be called faith. "Faith without the works is dead".
(2:26), and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all.
Faith must work; it must produce; etc.

Faith endures trials. Trials come and go, but a strong faith will face the head-on and develop endurance. etc etc.
you must read it all. before you read James.

As you say, it is overly plain to any objective reader, that Scripture in James is speaking of faith that saves and justifies, and is rebuking them who think they are saved and justified by faith alone.

and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all.

That's true. Good point. Hypocrisy is worse than not believing at all, nor professing faith of Christ.

Faith must work; it must produce; etc.

True again. Well said. Doing the word is a must with God to save and justify any soul:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Good ground keeps the word sown by doing it and keeping His commandments.

Until we are obeying the word and keeping His commandments, we are not keeping His word, nor His word of faith.

Until we are keeping His first great commandment, we are not keeping any of His commandments.

The first great commandment to keep the word sown in a good heart, is to purify the heart of lust of the world.

Those with unclean hearts of lust, are not the honest and good ground of God. Which is why they are not doing His righteousness, even as He is righteous, much less believe in being justified by doing so.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, for me:

Well, for you, at this time you have no answer to the simple point of obedience in the heart first, and then obedience with the body.

I appreciate your study and clarity, but until you do so, it remains a true counter to your two-aspect theory of salvation.

Obedience in the heart first and before obedience of the body is the cornerstone of God's covenant with man, which could not be accomplished by the law of Moses, but is commanded in the law the Christ, and is the reason why the Jews of old were offended and rejected Jesus as the Christ:

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus told them plainly all their works of righteousness seeking to fulfill the law of God were as filthy rags, so long as their hearts remained unpurified of lust.

This remains true today for Christians keeping hearts of lust, and not obeying God to purify our hearts and so cleanse our hands.

The only thing in Scripture that ever comes first, before walking in works of God's righteousness, is obeying His faith in the heart:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Anyways, I am not the only one who believes that there are two major aspects of salvation that Christians need to be focused on in this life. Others have discovered this truth on their own with God, as well.

Ture, but consensus is not a confirmation of truth of Scripture. Until obedience to the faith beginning in the heart is countered, then your two-aspects theory of salvation remains unproven, since no such Scripture says it plainly.

The only 'two-aspects' teaching of Scripture is salvation and justification, not salvation by faith first and then continuing with works of the body.

You need also consider that such a teaching not only makes faith first before and apart from works, but also of necessity makes salvation first before and apart from justification, since we are justified by works.

If we are saved first before and apart from works, and we are justified by works, then we can only be saved first before and apart from being justified.

So, we would need to see Scripture where we can be saved first without being justified.

Until then, there is no separation between faith and works with God, no more than there is separation between His salvation and justification.

Further, since both are by grace, then your teaching separates the work of grace in salvation from the work of grace for justification.

Simply put, once the temporal understanding of natural works of the body following inward thought, is enlightened with the Spirit of Christ, then we understand with God the first works are inward with the heart by faith, followed by walking in His righteousness outwardly:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I hope you do address obedience in the heart first. After all, there may be a solution for your theory to be confirmed as possibly truth with Scripture.

I believe you have the mind for Scripture that can do so. You've already quoted a Scripture that suggests a solution.

How were you initially saved? Was it by water baptism like in the Church of Christ? Perhaps this is the reason why you cannot see the verses I have shown to you (like Romans 4:3, Romans 4:9-12, etcetera). Obedience can apply to both one believing (In Initial Salvation - Romans 10:16), and in doing good works or doing righteousness (In the Secondary Aspect of Salvation - Romans 6:16).

As for my pointing out how others believe as I do. Well, not many believe there are two aspects of salvation. I believe this is the case because Christians are just usually following their church blindly or they are following what they desire to be true vs. what the Bible plainly says. Many who do not understand basic morality or who have hardened their heart by sin simply fall into the OSAS Camp or Sin and Still Be Saved Camp, and others who seek to appear to be self righteous by man’s standards will take salvation as being like that of Law Alone Salvationism like the Pharisees had done. Very very very few will try to balance both Grace and Sanctification properly in the Bible because it is enticing to believe and do the wrong thing. We are living in the last days and things will only progressively get worse. This is why I believe you cannot see what I am teaching from the Bible.

Again, you cannot in good conscience read Romans 11:6 and claim that grace is like works of some kind in this verse. For Romans 11:6 basically says: If it be of grace it is no more works and it is of works, it is no more grace. Obviously Paul is referring to being Initially Saved by God’s grace and he is attacking Law Alone Salvationism (Which is what you believe). I mean, how do you understand Luke 18:9-14? How is that works in your view? Yes. It may be obedience but that’s not works. There are things God calls grace and things he calls works. How so? Well, think about the mechanics involved. Do you think it is a work to say you are sorry with somebody?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

As you say, it is overly plain to any objective reader, that Scripture in James is speaking of faith that saves and justifies, and is rebuking them who think they are saved and justified by faith alone.

and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all.

That's true. Good point. Hypocrisy is worse than not believing at all, nor professing faith of Christ.

Faith must work; it must produce; etc.

True again. Well said. Doing the word is a must with God to save and justify any soul:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Good ground keeps the word sown by doing it and keeping His commandments.

Until we are obeying the word and keeping His commandments, we are not keeping His word, nor His word of faith.

Until we are keeping His first great commandment, we are not keeping any of His commandments.

The first great commandment to keep the word sown in a good heart, is to purify the heart of lust of the world.

Those with unclean hearts of lust, are not the honest and good ground of God. Which is why they are not doing His righteousness, even as He is righteous, much less believe in being justified by doing so.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Yes !

One may think that it's by their faith that they are saved ? but it's actually not ones own faith ? That Saves, it's the Grace of God that comes to you. I never bought such ? I was given and respond to such, for I know what it is. it's not of me ?

As to the old story of once Saved always Saved. well I hear such tossed around out of control, so that it becomes a joke but I do believe that once one is Truly born again such is Saved, so once Saved one is always Saved is true ! The parable of the Sower comes to mind ? such is a fact ! Faith Grows ! but it has to mature to fend off the weeds that grow to try and strangle your faith.
So why do so many who as the Parable of the sower shows fail, now looking back in the 70's at my Bible study days, I seen such take sprout ! but how many of them now that I know fell along the wayside ? I am not happy about such at all ! And they say to me, you still don't believe all that BS do you ! and I say a Thousand fold, absolutely ! I have 100% faith in Christ Jesus. not a shadow of doubt at all what so ever, come hell or high water. it's because I know him ?
I remember when I had only faith ? because of others had faith, they gave me strength ? but I did not know our Lord and Saviour personally ?
I knew off him before hand, but I had strong faith willing to die for him, but I had some small shadows of doubt ? and it's such as that small shadows that could take hold of one and bring in the rot = a cancer ! and such a one is only a religious ? I have come out from them ? I do not need that ? for I have Christ Jesus ! and he has me, There is nothing more. one can not go back like a dog to it's own vomit. because you know it's a Vomit and one is not a dog.

One who is not of God is a Vomit ? Sick ! remember God Vomited them out of the Land ? because they were not worthy of Him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

ETBass.....You could not explain "worketh righteousness" if you had to....
Let me give you a hint...>"its not to repent, confess sin, or keep the commandments.
So, why to post verses you can't explain?
You're wasting your time again.
Find something else to do, that is productive.

Also, the scribes and the pharisees, were not born again....so, anyone who is born again, has become the "righteousness of God, in Christ"", which obviously "exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees", as they dont have any righteousness.
Jesus is being sarcastic here......as He could be on occasion when dealing with religious idiots @pride filled = legalists.

"Worketh righteousness" means doing/obeying God's commands.

Psalms 119:172
".....for all thy commandments are righteousness."

When one "worketh righteousness" means one is working/obeying God's commands. When those in Acts 10:47-48 obeyed God's commands to be water baptized, they were working righteousness therefore accepted with God. Note, GOD is the one Who commanded water baptism, therefore those baptized were working GOD'S righteousness not their own righteousness. Those Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost because "they did not submit to God’s righteousness"....they would not obey the gospel (Romans 10:16).

On the other hand, NOT working/obeying God's righteousness is UNrighteousness/disobedience/rebellion against God and God does not accept those who will not do righteousness....whosoever continues to NOT do righteousness, continues to NOT be of God (1 John 3:10).

Therefore obeying God is called RIGHTEOUSNESS and not called the made up word "legalism".
Hebrews 5:9 says:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;".
This verse does NOT teach the false idea:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that are legalists;"

 

[Taken]

Here's what the Bible says.

Hebrews 7:23-25 KJV
23) And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:31-34 KJV
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So you tell me . . . who is he that condemns? Because Jesus, Who has been declared the judge of Humanity, is our intercessor.

Much love!

Hebrews 7:
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I see this scripture as being...
“He is able also to save them to the uttermost”.... done deal...Sav-ED.
“He ever liveth”......no matter when a man is naturally born...He the Lord ever lives, is available to every man.
“make intercession for them”......no matter when a man is naturally born, He is available, to MAKE....intercession to save them to the utmost.

What IS the “uttermost”?
It is maximal, supreme, greatest, highest.
It is the effect of resulting in Sav-ED.

Uttermost Sav-ed...FROM what? Eternal Separation FROM God.

Once Jesus whom IS the Word of God, whom IS the Spirit of Truth, whom IS the Christ, whom the Christ IS the Power of God, whom Christ IS the Seed of God, whom Christ IS the Quickening Spirit......and to the “uttermost” Saves a persons soul and Quickens that person spirit......those WORKS of God, ARE Complete.

For WHAT purpose does such a man who have BECOME “uttermost” SAVED, continue to REQUIRE and “intercessory” ?

That IS for all men, regardless of their birth 2,000 years ago or 2 minutes ago...He Liveth forever, ready, able, with the same offer to every man.

A man who has Accepted His Offering;
IS Forgiven Once and Forever.
IS soul Saved once and Forever.
IS spirit Quickened once and Forever.
IS indwelt with Gods Word, Gods Seed, the Power of Gods Spirit.
Can never again, (By the Power of God IN that men), Sin AGAINST God.
IS told to REMEMBER Jesus’ sacrifice, when eating and drinking.
Should know, they can NOW pray Directly to their God, who IS:
The Lord God Almighty.

The intercessory, for an unsaved man is necessary, they are separated from God.
The intercessory, for a saved man is not necessary, they are with God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So Paul is refering in to both condign and congruous?

Well, if salvation is not of condign works, then it perverts justice, because condign works are an obligation for justice, so you would have to do them first in order to be justified, or else you would be justified without justice, which is impossible with the God of Israel.
So, if not condign works, then it would have to be interpreted as: "not of congruous works" because these are not mandatory for justice, which eliminates your OT Law interpretation, because the OT Law is not congruous, but it is condign and absolutely required for salvation and justice.
Believe it or not, Paul is teaching faith alone without works in general, neither condign nor congruous, so no man can boast.


So, according to you, God gave a Law that is impossible to keep, and everyone who does not keep the "impossible to keep Law" is to be killed. Do you not see the err?

King Davi proving you wrong by keeping the Law perfectly:

Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.


So the reward of the wicked is merited but the reward of the righteous is not merited. Are you saying the ways of the LORD are not equal? Are not the ways of the wicked and the righteous unequal?

Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

Ezekiel 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.


"Free gift" ?

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Eph 2:9 Paul was speaking of works of merit. The OT law required one to keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified by that law (Gal 3:10). If one could do so, then one would have no sin therefore not be in need of grace thereby his reward would be of debt and not of grace (Romans 4:4). Therefore one could boast of his own efforts in perfect law keeping. Obedience is NOT perfect law keeping therefore is not a work of merit and nothing one can boast about. In obeying God, one is only doing what is his duty, doing what he is supposed to do and still is an unprofitable servant, (Luke 17:10).

Therefore the OT law God gave the Jews that required perfect, flawless law keeping (which the Jew could not do) to be justified, should have demonstrated to the Jew that he could NOT rely on keeping the law perfectly to be justified, but instead rely on a faithful obedience and God's grace to be justified. (1 Samuel 15:22). God did not require flawless obedience from them to be justified, but a simple obedience to His word. (Hosea 6:6) showing God can only be rightly served through faithful obedience and not by robotic, faithless law keeping in an attempt to keep the law perfectly.

David did NOT keep the law perfectly, 2 Samuel 11:2-15. David himself declared "I have sinned" 2 Samuel 12:13 therefore David was NOT justified by the OT law that required flawless law keeping but was justified by an obedient faith. He obediently repented of his sins, God forgave him of those sins.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The verse makes it clear being lost, spiritual death is earned, a wage contrasted to eternal life that is a free gift. Are you accusing God is unfair, not equal, because condemnation is a wage earned but eternal life is a free gift??

People choose to do evil, wickedness therefore they are paid in full what is due them...condemnation.

Yet those who choose to obey, their obedience will not be perfect leaving them in need of grace. Therefore eternal life cannot ever be earned, it remains a free gift.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Both of you teach our essential salvation is accomplished by works.

They teach with works following. Until we quote others correctly, rather than putting our false spin on it, then we can't possibly correct them.

Um no they do not. They do not teach one is saved eternally, then works follow

They teach one is sort of saved initially. But must keep working to ensure that salvation is completed.

In any case, we are justified by works.

We are justified only by the work of Christ on the cross. And the work of the spirit in our lives to draw us to christ.

Just because you add the word initially (not found in scripture by the way) does not mean you teach different.

I agree. When certain 'words' not found in Scripture, are used to support teaching, then their use is immediately suspect. If the doctrine is true, then we ought use the words of Scripture proving it is true.

1. Licentious - a person says something like a sinners prayer and believes in Christ. But there is no faith. These are the people James gave a warning to in chapter 2

Since 'believes Christ' contradicts 'there is no faith', then the best way to put it is: hearers that only agree Jesus is Christ, but do not obey Him as Christ the Lord.

Actually James said “ypu believe in God you do well, even demons believe and tremble” There is no evidence these people believes Jesus was the christ.

2. Grace through faith in the work of God based on hearing the word and taking these words of life and being born again.

'Taking these words' would be receiving the engrafted word, which is only in the good ground that keeps the word to do it.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Good ground is that which keeps the word, which is to do it and keep His commandments.

Receiving without doing is hearing only: they are agreeable to it, but not unto obeying it.

As john said, Whoever sins has never seen or known God.

True believers obey. It is because they have true living faith. Thats why again, as John said, Whoever is born of God can not continue to sin, because they have been born of God.

3. Legalism work based. These people claim that salvation begins, is maintained or in the end fulfilled based on our works (or lack of works)

All works are anathema to being saved by faith alone. They refuse to make difference between doing 'our works' of righteousness from an unclean heart vs doing God's works of righteousness with a pure heart.

'Based on' being another purposed misrepresentation of what is actually taught: Salvation is by grace through faith with God's works being maintained to be justified by grace with God.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Without works there is no fruitfulness, without which there is no good ground to be saved.

person 1 believes in no faith or works

Which is not possible. No man can believe in no faith.

person 2 believes in grace alone through faith in the work of God alone

I.e. salvation by faith alone, which is dead, being unfruitful without works maintained unto the end.

2 is 1 in truth: Believing in salvation by faith alone, without believing in justification by works: Hearers and agreers only.

Person 3 believes in faith plus works.

The only saying 'plus works' are #2, who always falsely represents the 4th person:

Person 4 believes in Jesus as the Christ to love and obey Him as Lord with a whole pure heart.

Person 5: Like Jews of old, them seeking to do the law, without believing the law is good at all, but only necessary to keep from transgression and death: Paul's rebuke of works only without faith nor love.

O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

Person 6: Them that hear the word and reject Jesus as the Christ: hearers that believe not the gospel at all. Unbelievers. Heathen.

You and T-Bass fall into category number 3.

No, they are Number 4, but are not expressing it accurately.

Along with the many other works based religions we see in christianity and the world religious system.

I.e. they are equated as heathen in false religions, whether monotheistic or pagan. All because they believe and obey the Scripture as written: doing the word to be justified in the word of faith.

In fact. this gospel of works is the most widely spread gospel in the world.

The gospel of works only, would include unbelieving Jews and Christians who seek to obey it, but don't believe nor love it, which is just as foolish as the other gospel most widely spread in the world:

Yours. The gospel of faith alone which is dead, being without justification by works, which is the licentious, as opposed to the legalist.

The legalist seeks to do their own righteousness, and you seek to do your own good works: Both are without first purifying the heart by the faith of Jesus to love and obey Him with all the heart and soul.


Just remember, it is not me calling you or anyone a fool.

I am saying you are believing in another gospel of dead faith alone than the apostles preached, that is not another, but is accursed.

You are also falsely accusing the brethren that believe in God's justification by His works of righteousness, and equating them with unbelievers of false religions of the world.

Sadly you are just like the other two. You preach faith. But your whole concept is based on works. Not on the work of Christ.

You think you ca make up for one sin by doing 1 work. If you could CHrist would have stayed in heaven, put us all under law. And allowed us to pay for our won sin.

Your last Statement is meaningless. I have stated continuously we are saved by faith alone. However, faith is never alone.

When you get to Christ and you start to profess all your works you did in his name. Remember what he said. Depart from me, for I never knew you.

Your faith was in self and what you do. Not in christ and what he did.

Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. SIn had left a crimson stain, he washed me white as snow.”

Continue to try to wash yourself. And you will fail. As jesus said. We are completely clean by the word.

The word is what washes us, Not our selfish acts we call works.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So the church nor man is not justified nor righteous when sharing faith in God to provide to the poor if the church nor that believer cares to lead by example to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor with what God had provided for them.

It is the church's faith in God to provide that is dead in the eyes of the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide to the poor, will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements or starvation when the church does not care to lead by example.

James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if needing works, because James was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by callously sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing.

Paul testifies to faith in Jesus Christ in salvation which is without works for why believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is the Good News for man.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It doesn't appear you know what a "work" is that we are indeed judged by, and the works of the flesh.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[robert derrick]

How were you initially saved? Was it by water baptism like in the Church of Christ? Perhaps this is the reason why you cannot see the verses I have shown to you (like Romans 4:3, Romans 4:9-12, etcetera). Obedience can apply to both one believing (In Initial Salvation - Romans 10:16), and in doing good works or doing righteousness (In the Secondary Aspect of Salvation - Romans 6:16).

As for my pointing out how others believe as I do. Well, not many believe there are two aspects of salvation. I believe this is the case because Christians are just usually following their church blindly or they are following what they desire to be true vs. what the Bible plainly says. Many who do not understand basic morality or who have hardened their heart by sin simply fall into the OSAS Camp or Sin and Still Be Saved Camp, and others who seek to appear to be self righteous by man’s standards will take salvation as being like that of Law Alone Salvationism like the Pharisees had done. Very very very few will try to balance both Grace and Sanctification properly in the Bible because it is enticing to believe and do the wrong thing. We are living in the last days and things will only progressively get worse. This is why I believe you cannot see what I am teaching from the Bible.

Again, you cannot in good conscience read Romans 11:6 and claim that grace is like works of some kind in this verse. For Romans 11:6 basically says: If it be of grace it is no more works and it is of works, it is no more grace. Obviously Paul is referring to being Initially Saved by God’s grace and he is attacking Law Alone Salvationism (Which is what you believe). I mean, how do you understand Luke 18:9-14? How is that works in your view? Yes. It may be obedience but that’s not works. There are things God calls grace and things he calls works. How so? Well, think about the mechanics involved. Do you think it is a work to say you are sorry with somebody?

How were you initially saved?

All who are being saved, are being saved the same way: by believing and obeying Jesus first within the heart, that we may be obeying Him with the body.

There is no 'initial' to salvation. The only initial is before salvation, which is to initially hear and agree with the gospel.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The only 'first' to salvation is with cleansing the inside of the heart along with the outside body.

Until faith is recieved to obey God within the heart, the faith remains dead as a hearer that only agrees, but does not obey.

Law Alone Salvationism (Which is what you believe).

Let's back up and find out exactly what each other believes, before declaring what the other believes.

Question:

Do you agree with this: we are initially saved by faith only in the heart, before and apart from being justified by works of the body?

That is what I think you are saying. If not, you can clarify and say it more perfectly.

So far as law-alone stuff, I know I have never wrote that in any way. So if you want me to clarify something I've written, I'd be glad to. Or perhaps you can just ask me.

 

[robert derrick]

What makes no sense is to keep claiming verses say things they don't, and to think that you can add to what Jesus did.

To think that God has to threaten and coerce when in fact He invites us come, and be forgiven, and free.

And you really and truly do not know my mind such that you should presume to know what and how I think. And don't think I'm going to become defensive because you continue to provoke, and insinuate, and whatever.

Sure . . . I can't believe . . . I just want to think . . . on and on it goes, trust me, I've heard it all, and when someone talks that way, where is the representation of Spiritual fruit?

And again here you insinuate that my understanding of God's grace is just being soft on sin. Such hogwash!

Those who say such things must not have anything real to say, or so it seems to me.

The moment you take away any consequences of sin (Which is death), is the moment a believer will justify sin on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not).

That may be your life, but again, where is the power of the Holy Spirit to change you? It's not threats of death, but the power of a new life.

Jesus came to set you free from sin and death and fear and all that fleshy stuff, but be it to you according to your faith. If you don't believe it, you won't walk in it.

Much love!

To think that God has to threaten and coerce when in fact He invites us come, and be forgiven, and free.

True. God would never threaten nor coerce any human being, but just makes friendly invitations to come along and play with Him, such as with Cain, and Nimrod, and them just before the flood, and the Egyptians, and of course His own people living in disobedience to Him:

But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.

Yeah, I real bully that one. Definitely not for the toddlers that must be coaxed, wheedled, and begged with smiles and pleading eyes unto the end to just go ahead and repent already.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Obviously, such grievous threatening and coercion is not for the more refined and touchy among us. They prefer a more joyous correction while celebrating their grace.

Jesus wasn't shamed, whipped, crucified, mocked and separated from the Father, just so God could nicely ask ungodly sinners to come out and play Christian.

OSAS is truly playtime Christianity for uncleansed sinners, that think their dirty diapers don't stink as much as 'unbelieving' sinners.