James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry, I don't hold to your labels, my friend. I am merely following what the Bible says.

Yet you label me and T-Bass.

You are being dishonest my friend.

My belief is unlike T.Bass' belief because I actually believe we are INITIALLY and FOUNDATIONALLY saved by God's grace without works. No person can actually put the cart before the horse. T. Bass believes in being saved first by a work like water baptism similar to how the Jews were trying to deceive Christians at the Jerusalem council in that circumcision was necessary to be initially saved (Which is also a work). I believe a Christian is FIRST saved by God's grace without works. If a believer happens to on rare occasion stumble into sin, they can confess of their sins to Jesus to be forgiven of those sins (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16, Luke 18:9-14). This again is not of works. So a believer is INITIALLY and ULTIMATELY saved by God's grace. But as the Bible says, God's grace TEACHES us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). Your version of grace simply does not teach that because it is a license to sin on some level. But Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality or licentiousness.

Both of you teach our essential salvation is accomplished by works. Just because you add the word initially (not found in scripture by the way) does not mean you teach different.

There are three gospels found in the world

1. Licentious - a person says something like a sinners prayer and believes in Christ. But there is no faith. These are the people James gave a warning to in chapter 2

2. Grace through faith in the work of God based on hearing the word and taking these words of life and being born again.

3. Legalism work based. These people claim that salvation begins, is maintained or in the end fulfilled based on our works (or lack of works)

person one believes in no faith or works

person 2 believes in grace alone through faith in the work of God alone

Person 3 believes in faith plus works.

You and T-Bass fall into category number 3. Along with the many other works based religions we see in christianity and the world religious system. In fact. this gospel of works is the most widely spread gospel in the world..

It's not surprising that you would say this. But we both cannot be right. The Bible is the final word on the matter and I don't believe it supports your belief here. I believe that Christians who hold to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism do not really believe in holy living according to the Bible even though they say they do.

How so? Well, take for example: Gotquestions article on the matter. They make the same contradictory statements that many in the Perpetual Belief Alone camp makes. They say a Christian will generally progress more towards being identified to living holy and yet they contradict themselves by saying that a believer who has backslidden into sin is saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

So their consistency on holy living is just a sham. In other words, if a believer can backslide into sin and be saved then they can deceive themselves into thinking they can remain that way and be saved or they can justify sin every once in a while. In short, it's turning God's grace into a license for immorality.



Think of it like this: If Bob saved Rick from drowning in a lake last year, then it is still true that Rick was saved last year even if Rick ends up later in life turns to be drowned in that same lake with nobody being around to save him. I say this because Jesus used parables or real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. This is where Belief Alone-ism crumbles. For it cannot be illustrated by way of real world example and align with basic morality.


Here is the verse:

Galatians 3:3 says,
“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Okay, so what is Paul talking about here? Well, you have to understand that Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call, "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised (a work) in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24) (Note: Please stop and read these three verses in the King James Bible).

Anyways, the point of Acts 15 is that Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (instead of being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel, and His mercy), then they would be making a Work of the Law (the Torah or Old Law) the basis of their salvation instead of God's grace. The entrance gate and the foundation of salvation would be circumcision or a law, or work.

This is why Paul spoke in the way he did in Ephesians 2:8-9. He is not referring to all forms of works that were taught to us by the Lord Jesus Himself and His followers after we are saved by God’s grace.

Just remember, it is not me calling you or anyone a fool

Gal 3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, (INITIALLY SAVED BY FAITH) are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (MAINTAIN BY HOLY LIVING) 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

 

[marks]

Not so.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): One can say the prodigal son was acting immature, but was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father, his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, as well.

Parables.

A familiar story, to show a basic truth, but not every detail is intended to form doctrine. The father's statement that he was dead and is now alive shouldn't be construed that way, in some technical sense about the coming salvation, particularly when that is so contrary to such plainly stated passages telling us about the permanence of our salvation, being saved by God, and not ourselves.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved then lost then saved then lost then saved then lost.....is foreign to Scripture.

But I just clearly demonstrated by Scripture that what you say is not true here.

 

[farouk]

But I just clearly demonstrated by Scripture that what you say is not true here.

Take @Eternally Grateful ' advice, above, and see how Galatians shows that one is not saved by grace and then perfected by works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Parables.

A familiar story, to show a basic truth, but not every detail is intended to form doctrine. The father's statement that he was dead and is now alive shouldn't be construed that way, in some technical sense about the coming salvation, particularly when that is so contrary to such plainly stated passages telling us about the permanence of our salvation, being saved by God, and not ourselves.

Much love!

Problem is that you are not offering any alternative meaning, though. Then there is also James 5:19-20 that teaches the same truth that you have to distort, as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Take @Eternally Grateful ' advice, above, and see how Galatians shows that one is not saved by grace and then perfected by works.

But both you and Eternally Grateful are ignoring the context. Galatians 2:3 and Galatians 5:2 talks about Circumcision Salvationism (Which was the same heresy promoted at the Jerusalem Council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). This heresy was basically saying a person had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved and it said you had to keep the 613 Laws of Moses (Which believers do not have to keep). Believers are under the Law(s) of Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21) or under the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). We are to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit so that we will live (Romans 8:13). You ignore the part in Galatians 3:3 about what we have begun in the Spirit. What was begun in the Spirit? Sanctification and holy living. For the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, and peace, etcetera. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.

The context of Galatians 3:3 is the Laws of Moses (the 613) because Paul says that the Law came 430 years after the promise of Abraham (See: Galatians 3:16-17). The Old Law ended when Christ died upon the cross because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). The Old Law as a package deal no longer applies because it was given to Israel and not the church. So a person who thought they had to be circumcised would be trying to perfect themselves according to the flesh because they are trying to employ a Law that no longer applies anymore. They would be trying to perfect themselves based on their own way vs. the new way (Which is having begun our holy living by the Spirit). That’s the difference here (that you and your friend do not understand).

 

[Behold]

Acts 10:35
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

ETBass.....You could not explain "worketh righteousness" if you had to....
Let me give you a hint...>"its not to repent, confess sin, or keep the commandments.
So, why to post verses you can't explain?
You're wasting your time again.
Find something else to do, that is productive.

Also, the scribes and the pharisees, were not born again....so, anyone who is born again, has become the "righteousness of God, in Christ"", which obviously "exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees", as they dont have any righteousness.
Jesus is being sarcastic here......as He could be on occasion when dealing with religious idiots @pride filled = legalists.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But I just clearly demonstrated by Scripture that what you say is not true here.

Actually. No yuo did not.

what you did is You just caused the bible to contradict itself.

 

[farouk]

But both you and Eternally Grateful are ignoring the context. Galatians 2:3 and Galatians 5:2 talks about Circumcision Salvationism (Which was the same heresy promoted at the Jerusalem Council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). This heresy was basically saying a person had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved and it said you had to keep the 613 Laws of Moses (Which believers do not have to keep). Believers are under the Law(s) of Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21) or under the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). We are to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you shall live (Romans 8:13). You ignore the part in Galatians 3:3 about what we have begun in the Spirit. What was begun in the Spirit? Sanctification and holy living. For the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, and peace, etcetera. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.

The context of Galatians 3:3 is the Laws of Moses (the 613) because Paul says that the Law came 430 years after the promise of Abraham (See: Galatians 3:16-17). The Old Law ended when Christ died upon the cross because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). The Old Law as a package deal no longer applies because it was given to Israel and not the church. So a person who thought they had to be circumcised would be trying to perfect themselves according to the flesh because they are trying to employ a Law that no longer applies anymore. They would be trying to perfect themselves based on their own way vs. the new way (Which is having begun our holy living by the Spirit). That’s the difference here (that you and your friend do not understand).

From Scripture I just don't see loss of salvation as something that happens to a true, born again believer.

 

[farouk]

Actually. No yuo did not.

what you did is You just caused the bible to contradict itself.

@Eternally Grateful The supposed saved then lost then saved then lost then saved then lost spiral: it really makes no sense whatsoever from Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, in verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5: Paul was emphasizing how we are initially saved by God's grace without works because of the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” that was going around (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). “Circumcision Salvationism” was the false belief that said a Christian had to first be initially saved by circumcision (Which would mean that if a believer thought this way, they would be making circumcision (a work) the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation instead of God's grace. Hence, they would be saved by Works ALONE Salvationism without God's grace (i.e. without being initially saved by God's grace without works). Being saved by God's grace without works is the 1st aspect of salvation. But Paul does not disagree with the secondary aspect of salvation that follows, though. For Paul basically says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the power of the Spirit you will live (live eternally).

The word inittially is not in those passaged

In eph 2. he says we HAVE BEEN SAVED

In romans 4. he speaks of Abraham being saved by faith period not by works.

In romans 11 destroys your argument, It is either by grace, or it is by works, It can NEVER be of both

Titus 3. again. We have been saved a completed act.

We can also add John,

John 3. Whoever believes will never perish but has eternal life
John 4. Ask and he will give us rivers of living water flowing to eternal life
John 5 - whoever hears and believes will NOT come to judgment
John 6 whoever believes will never hunger or thirst, Will never die, Will live forever, Has eternal life and will be raised on the last day. it is the spirit who gives life, the words he spoke are spirit and life
John 10. Jesus says he gives eternal life. and no one can snatch us from his hands. That includes us

I can go on and on and on. Grace, and eternal life through grace is what is promised. You adding the word initial salvation is you adding to the word.

Again. Paul calls those who think we are initially saved in the spirit and must maintain that salvation by works of the flesh fools.

I pray you seek the spirit. not the flesh.

 

[marks]

Problem is that you are not offering any alternative meaning, though.

What I'm saying is that this was the father's expression in the parable, the story line. The truth of the parable won't conflict with other Scripture.
Like the "Parable of the Unjust Judge", if you try to match the "unjust judge" to God, you're saying God is unjust. It's the storyline.

Then there is also James 5:19-20 that teaches the same truth that you have to distort, as well.

Why the loaded language?

Care to reword into something specific?

Like why you feel that passage teaches that the born again die again?

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful The supposed saved then lost then saved then lost then saved then lost spiral: it really makes no sense whatsoever from Scripture.

Yet from creation it is the most widespread gospel on earth.

Its sad after thousands of years. we are so weak and gullible we still fall for the same trap of legalism and pride.

 

[robert derrick]

1 John 3:18 is not talking about Initial Salvation but it is talking to believers who have already been saved by God’s grace. So this verse cannot be used to prove your point here, my friend. You need clear 100% proof that believers are saved by doing a laborous action or work in being initially saved. Do you believe water baptism is salvific? If so… that really does not match up with many verses; Especially 1 Corinthians 1:17. See the end half of my post #517 on my explanation for this verse.



Like your friends who believe in “No grace ever unless there is a work or works”, you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works. Romans 10:16 equates “obeyed the gospel” with “believed.”

Babies who are aborted are saved purely by God’s grace without any works. So this disproves the notion that one must always have works in order to be saved.

Also, let me give you an example:

Bob tells Rick to seek forgiveness with his wife for something bad he said to her (that he did not really mean to say). Rick later seeks forgiveness with his wife, and Rick later talks with Bob. Bob asks Rick, “Did you take my advice?” Rick replied: “Yes, and I was blessed by God that she forgave me.” In other words, we can say that Rick obeyed Bob’s advice in seeking forgiveness with his wife. But can we say this is a physically laborious work on Rick’s part to seek forgiveness with his wife? No. Generally normally people do not think that this kind of thing is a work like work at a job.

The Jews think pushing buttons in an elevator is work. Do you think that way?
In other words, my whole point is grace. Grace is the opposite of works when we think about those two words.
Romans 11:6 makes it clear that if it be of grace then it is no more works and if it be of works it is no more grace.
Of course Paul would be teaching Belief Alone-ism if we are to take the OSAS viewpoint on this but we both agree that holy living is necessary as a part of God’s Plan of salvation. Where we strongly disagree is on being saved by God’s grace (Which you don’t seem to understand what that word means). Grace vs. works are two different things. Really just look into a dictionary on these two words and think of the distinctive of what each of these words mean and how they are different.

The clarity in Romans 11:6 is a time related issue. It’s referring to Initial Salvation and or Foundational Salvation and not the secondary aspect of Salvation which is the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Yes there is.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the most famous passages that says we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works.

If you were to read the context, Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about “Initial Salvation.”
Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (i.e. made alive).
How many times did that happen? Just one time.
Ephesians 2:8 says this grace is like a gift. How many times do you receive a gift?
Just one time, right? So this is talking about a one time event of having been saved (i.e. past tense).
This is talking about when we first came to the Lord and his salvation, and it is not referring to Continued Salvation. You have to rightly divide the difference between….

#1. “Initial Salvation by God’s grace” verses, and
#2. “Continued Salvation by the Sanctification of the Spirit” verses.
​

Romans 4:9-12 says,
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The context:

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3).

Clearly we see in the above red bolded words in Romans 4:11 that Abraham was to be the father of them who would later believe. Abraham’s example was that righteousness was imputed to Abraham despite him not being circumcised (Which is a work). Verse 12 (Romans 4:12) confirms that Abraham who is the father of circumcision set an example that other believers today are to walk in the same way as Abraham by believing in the same way that Abraham did even when he was not yet circumcised (Meaning: when Abraham did not do a work initially but he believed God and it was accounted to Abraham as righteousness before circumcision which is a work). So clearly this is referring to Initial Salvation here. For we read elsewhere of how Paul and Silas simply tell the Philippian jailor to believe in Jesus to be saved (Acts of the Apostles 16:31) instead of telling him to successfully jump through a bunch of hoops of fire backwards while poodles permanently latch their mouths down upon his hands.

Titus 3:5-7 says:
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Again, there is no way to read this passage from your viewpoint. Even if you wanted this passage to refer exclusively to Law of Moses it still really does not sound like that at all. It can be read as referring to works of righteousness of any kind here. It is referring to how we are saved by His mercy and not by works of righteousness that we have done. This passage is referring to Initial Salvation because it says how by his mercy he saved us (past tense) and it refers to how we are saved also by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Which is in reference the born again experience when we receive a new heart with new desires when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ).



No. This is an oversimplification of salvation at the expense of truth. The Bible teaches two aspects of salvation but not everyone knows how to rightly divide. Most just are fine in blindly following their church or they prefer to either want to justify sin with Belief Alone-ism or they prefer Legalism with the belief that says: ““No grace ever unless there is a work or works.”

Thank you for responding. I appreciate your apparent soundness of Scripture, which is no doubt due to you acknowledging justification by works and not by faith alone.

However, you have bypassed the main point: There is no temporal difference between faith and obedience in the heart.

The doctrine of 'faith first and then works' is based solely upon the natural reasoning in this life between inward faith and outward works, but does not acknowledge the spiritual kingdom, where there is no such timeline difference in the heart: God sees the heart first, and commands obedience inwardly before seeking to obey Him outwardly.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

We cannot obey Him from a pure heart bodily, if we are not first obeying Him in the heart spiritually, to purify the heart by His power to become sons of God.

you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Works of faith are by obedience to the faith. Obedience begins in the heart, where we first begin to obey Him by purging our hearts from lust and thoughts for sins of the flesh

Romans 10:16 equates “obeyed the gospel” with “believed.”

True, they have not believed who have not obeyed, which proves the point: there is no believing without obeying, beginning in the heart.

I will respond to your other points in another post.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet you label me and T-Bass.

You are being dishonest my friend.

Sorry. This statement makes absolutely no sense. Just because I don’t accept your labels (beliefs) does not mean that I cannot place labels upon what other people believe. That in no way means that I am being dishonest (Unless you are thinking I am against the labeling of beliefs in general is wrong somehow - which I don’t believe). I believe it is perfectly fine to label beliefs so as to identify them. My not accepting your labels does not mean I am against label making in general. In view of our discussion involving God’s Word: Labels are just a name for a particularly held beliefs.

Both you and T. Bass believe that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not in reference to being saved by God’s grace without works by Initial Salvation and Foundational Salvation exclusively.

T. Bass believes we must do a work (baptism to be initially saved).
So he views Ephesians 2:8-9 in a way that involves being initially saved by the works of God to attain grace, and not the works of men (Which contradicts 1 Corinthians 1:17, etcetera).

You believe Ephesians 2:8-9 applies to the whole life of the believer’s salvation (Which would contradict James 2:17-19, and James 2:24).

Both of you teach our essential salvation is accomplished by works. Just because you add the word initially (not found in scripture by the way) does not mean you teach different.

The word “Trinity” and “Bible” is not found in the Holy Scriptures but Christians still use these terms.

Anyways…

Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (made alive).
How many times that happened? One time.

Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God’s grace like a gift.
How many times do you receive a gift. One time.

Ephesians 2:8 uses the word “saved” (past tense) and does not use the words “ye are being saved” and neither does it say, “Over the course of your whole life, ye are forever saved.”

Ephesians 2:10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. So this “saved by God’s grace” (past tense) is not at the exclusion of works of any kind later on. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

There are three gospels found in the world

1. Licentious - a person says something like a sinners prayer and believes in Christ. But there is no faith. These are the people James gave a warning to in chapter 2

I really do not see any difference between this belief and what you believe because holy living and or good works is mingled in with sin on some level. This is no different than unbelievers who do good works and evil works (sin). You don’t believe you lose salvation when you sin and that makes it no more different than a person who justifies lots of sin or unbelief in the things in God’s Word. Also, you are adding works into the equation to show that a person has been saved (Which shows that you try to back end in some works for salvation).

Anyways, imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,

“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“

And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

After the horrible incident in Pennsylvania, Pastor Knapp’s deacon, Jack Rickard commented on Sodini’s death and said;

“George is going to heaven, but he’s not going to get his rewards,”

Kenneth Nally, another believer of this unscrupulous doctrine, committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven. Definitely! This kind of belief would reclaim many people to Satan, the author of all lies and abominations.

I also remembered a certain time when I tried to ask a Born Again pastor who preaches about the assured salvation. I asked him, “Pastor. If doing good works is unnecessary for salvation so that I decided to cease from giving my tithes, am I still saved?” The pastor answered and said, “Definitely not, son. If you will cease from giving your tithes and offerings, you will become a robber, because the Bible said, ‘ye rob God’.” See??? Born Again and many Baptist and Evangelical pastors who hold this kind of shameful doctrine are just after to our tithes! They don’t care about our salvation. They don’t care whether we will become evil or not, but what matters most is our money. They telling their members that in salvation, good works are unnecessary things, except the giving of tithes and donations!

Source:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

2. Grace through faith in the work of God based on hearing the word and taking these words of life and being born again.

Again, I have already shown you that God does not force us to be saved over the course of our life against our free will.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Again, what do you do with verses like Philippians 2:12, and 1 Timothy 6:12? How do change the plain reading of these verses to fit your belief?

3. Legalism work based. These people claim that salvation begins, is maintained or in the end fulfilled based on our works (or lack of works)

I agree that there are those who make it all about Law for salvation and they don’t believe in any kind of grace whatsoever. This would be the Church of Christ for starters. They make everything about the Law and there is no real Grace ever. If they fall into sin… I don’t know what they do to get grace. But we as believers need to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin. That’s grace and not works. So grace is foundational to salvation.

person one believes in no faith or works

This would not be accurate. There are many who believe in Jesus as their Savior and they believe like George Sodini that salvation does not depend on works and so they can live however they please.

(Continued in my next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

person 2 believes in grace alone through faith in the work of God alone

But again… this is just turning God’s grace into a license to sin because you don’t believe sin separates a believer from God. For in your belief: 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7 cannot apply to a believer’s life. You don’t actually believe in confessing sin to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). You don’t actually believe in walking in the light (loving your brother - 1 John 2:9-11) so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:17). Both 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7 have the word “IF” in them (Which means they are conditional and not something forced upon you because God altered your mind and heart beyond your own control).

You are trying to back end in works by saying that God forces a person to do them by some kind of forced change that is beyond their own control. It’s basically Calvinism but in reverse.

Person 3 believes in faith plus works.

You and T-Bass fall into category number 3. Along with the many other works based religions we see in christianity and the world religious system. In fact. this gospel of works is the most widely spread gospel in the world..

Not really. There is no “plus works” for T. Bass. It’s works (Which is representation of his faith). T. Bass does not believe in being saved by a belief alone at any point in time, or faith at any moment in this life and he mingles in a belief with works. For he thinks faith must always include works or it is a dead faith. He does not appear to believe faith can ever exist without works at any point in a believer’s life. This would be both in the acceptance of Christ (water baptism) and it includes him believing that a Christian must be faithful with works until the day one dies. So there is never a point whereby it is ever a belief alone or grace alone that can save a Christian (according to T. Bass). Now, I am not sure of how he gets grace if a believer stumbles into sin, but he did appear to speak against Luke 18:9-14 not applying anymore under the New Covenant (Which is a great concern).

I believe in faith + works of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-9: Paul was not referring to being saved by works of faith AFTER one was saved by God’s grace. Paul only mentions works after we have been saved by His grace in Ephesians 2:10. Paul was concerned about how we have been initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works unless you can prove by the context in Ephesians 2:8-9 that he was referring to even our future way of living. But not even you believe that because you appear to agree that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Which means you believe works is a part of the salvation equation but you make a clever workaround like it is not you doing the work because God has body snatched the hearts and minds of of believers in some way whereby they no longer have any free will anymore.

Just remember, it is not me calling you or anyone a fool

Gal 3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, (INITIALLY SAVED BY FAITH) are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (MAINTAIN BY HOLY LIVING) 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

What laws do you think we are under within the New Covenant or New Testament?

#1. The 613 Laws of Moses?
#2. The two greatest laws alone mentioned by Jesus in Mark 12:29-30?
#3. No Laws?
#4. Majority of the Laws of Christ mentioned by Jesus and His Followers within the pages of the New Testament?
#5. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? (Romans 8:2).
#6. Both the Laws in the Old Testament and New Testament?
#7. Something else not mentioned here?​

I say this because you don’t appear to understand that the 613 Laws of Moses no longer apply to believers under the New Covenant or New Testament. Meaning, circumcision no longer applies for any believer under the New Covenant. This is what Paul was referring to in Galatians 3:3 because he says in his letter to the Galatians the following words.

“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

Galatians 5:2
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Why would Paul say this in Galatians 5:2?

Well, at the Jerusalem council, we learn the following:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

In other words, in Galatians 3:3: Paul is referring to Christians thinking they had to perfect themselves in the flesh by keeping an Old Law (circumcision) that no longer applies anymore under the New Covenant vs. what they have begun in the Spirit.

What have they begun in the Spirit?

Holy living by the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).
Even the Lord does the good work in believers (Philippians 2:13).
By the Spirit we begun to have the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, and peace, etcetera.

Of course this is under their free will cooperation and they are not mind wiped to be slave puppet (as a result of a one time decision for Christ) because Philippians 2:12 says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[marks]

But again… this is just turning God’s grace into a license to sin because you don’t believe sin separates a believer from God.

This thing that you keep repeating is false. And once again, I'll point out that you hold to the exact same thinking, only that you rate according to how long your sin is ongoing. It's as if sin up to this much is OK, but over that line not OK.

You are assuming depravity in the recreated heart, and that is wrong. Jesus KNEW where He had come from, and where He was returning to. He KNEW He would not fall to sin. He KNEW He would not fail to overcome. And that did not give Him any such license.

Your argument rests on the notion that the only way to make a child of God stop sinning is throught threats of hellfire, I say the Holy Spirit changes a man. And knowing that I'm forever changed by no means somehow makes me into someone who doesn't care whether I sin or not.

Tell me . . . what is the true heart-value of coerced obedience? Isn't the higher calling to live obedient lives because we rejoice to do so? Because we love others so much that we don't want to rob them of the service we can give them by wasting our life and love on fleshy pursuits? Whether drunkenness or divisiveness, or whatever it is, it robs our lives of precious time to share God's love with mankind.

You don’t actually believe in confessing sin to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). You don’t actually believe in walking in the light (loving your brother -

And what gives you the right to say such things? This to you is righteousness?

Ad hominem, inaccurate, malignant.

Listen to you as you try to convince me of your "truth".

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This thing that you keep repeating is false.

You are assuming depravity in the recreated heart, and that is wrong. Jesus KNEW where He had come from, and where He was returning to. He KNEW He would not fall to sin. He KNEW He would not fail to overcome. And that did not give Him any such license.

Your argument rests on the notion that the only way to make a child of God stop sinning is throught threats of hellfire, I say the Holy Spirit changes a man. And knowing that I'm forever changed by no means somehow makes me into someone who doesn't care whether I sin or not.

Tell me . . . what is the true heart-value of coerced obedience? Isn't the higher calling to live obedient lives because we rejoice to do so? Because we love others so much that we don't want to rob them of the service we can give them by wasting our life and love on fleshy pursuits? Whether drunkenness or divisiveness, or whatever it is, it robs our lives of precious time to share God's love with mankind.


And what gives you the right to say such things? This to you is righteousness?

Ad hominem, inaccurate, malignant.

Listen to you as you try to convince me of your "truth".

Much love!

Remember, it only took one sin (or disobedience to one of God’s commands) for Adam and Eve to fall and die spiritually.
The devil lied to Eve and said she would not die if she basically disobeyed this command.
This same lie is being perpetuated today by the devil in that believers think that Jesus’ grace is a safety net to sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry. This statement makes absolutely no sense. Just because I don’t accept your labels (beliefs) does not mean that I cannot place labels upon what other people believe. That in no way means that I am being dishonest (Unless you are thinking I am against the labeling of beliefs in general is wrong somehow - which I don’t believe). I believe it is perfectly fine to label beliefs so as to identify them. My not accepting your labels does not mean I am against label making in general. In view of our discussion involving God’s Word: Labels are just a name for a particularly held beliefs.

Both you and T. Bass believe that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not in reference to being saved by God’s grace without works by Initial Salvation and Foundational Salvation exclusively.

T. Bass believes we must do a work (baptism to be initially saved).
So he views Ephesians 2:8-9 in a way that involves being initially saved by the works of God to attain grace, and not the works of men (Which contradicts 1 Corinthians 1:17, etcetera).

You believe Ephesians 2:8-9 applies to the whole life of the believer’s salvation (Which would contradict James 2:17-19, and James 2:24).



The word “Trinity” and “Bible” is not found in the Holy Scriptures but Christians still use these terms.

Anyways…

Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (made alive).
How many times that happened? One time.

Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God’s grace like a gift.
How many times do you receive a gift. One time.

Ephesians 2:8 uses the word “saved” (past tense) and does not use the words “ye are being saved” and neither does it say, “Over the course of your whole life, ye are forever saved.”

Ephesians 2:10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. So this “saved by God’s grace” (past tense) is not at the exclusion of works of any kind later on. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).



I really do not see any difference between this belief and what you believe because holy living and or good works is mingled in with sin on some level. This is no different than unbelievers who do good works and evil works (sin). You don’t believe you lose salvation when you sin and that makes it no more different than a person who justifies lots of sin or unbelief in the things in God’s Word. Also, you are adding works into the equation to show that a person has been saved (Which shows that you try to back end in some works for salvation).

Anyways, imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,

“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“

And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

After the horrible incident in Pennsylvania, Pastor Knapp’s deacon, Jack Rickard commented on Sodini’s death and said;

“George is going to heaven, but he’s not going to get his rewards,”

Kenneth Nally, another believer of this unscrupulous doctrine, committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven. Definitely! This kind of belief would reclaim many people to Satan, the author of all lies and abominations.

I also remembered a certain time when I tried to ask a Born Again pastor who preaches about the assured salvation. I asked him, “Pastor. If doing good works is unnecessary for salvation so that I decided to cease from giving my tithes, am I still saved?” The pastor answered and said, “Definitely not, son. If you will cease from giving your tithes and offerings, you will become a robber, because the Bible said, ‘ye rob God’.” See??? Born Again and many Baptist and Evangelical pastors who hold this kind of shameful doctrine are just after to our tithes! They don’t care about our salvation. They don’t care whether we will become evil or not, but what matters most is our money. They telling their members that in salvation, good works are unnecessary things, except the giving of tithes and donations!

Source:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY



Again, I have already shown you that God does not force us to be saved over the course of our life against our free will.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Again, what do you do with verses like Philippians 2:12, and 1 Timothy 6:12? How do change the plain reading of these verses to fit your belief?



I agree that there are those who make it all about Law for salvation and they don’t believe in any kind of grace whatsoever. This would be the Church of Christ for starters. They make everything about the Law and there is no real Grace ever. If they fall into sin… I don’t know what they do to get grace. But we as believers need to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin. That’s grace and not works. So grace is foundational to salvation.



This would not be accurate. There are many who believe in Jesus as their Savior and they believe like George Sodini that salvation does not depend on works and so they can live however they please.

(Continued in my next post):

The bible teaches those born again will never die and have eternal life

You teach conditional life

The bible teaches that it is either grace or works. It is not, nor it is ever, both. In fact, it says one cancels out another

You can post these long winded posts all you want. You can label people all you want. You can claim you are not teaching the same gospel as someone else all you want.

It dsoes not make you right.

Once again. You cause the word of God to contradict.

The trinity is found. salvation by grace plus works is not found.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The bible teaches those born again will never die and have eternal life

You teach conditional life

The bible teaches that it is either grace or works. It is not, nor it is ever, both. In fact, it says one cancels out another

You can post these long winded posts all you want. You can label people all you want. You can claim you are not teaching the same gospel as someone else all you want.

It dsoes not make you right.

Once again. You cause the word of God to contradict.

The trinity is found. salvation by grace plus works is not found.

The problem is that you are not dealing the Scriptural points in my long winded post that proves that what I say is true according to Scripture. You can espouse all the beliefs and opinions you like, but what I said with Scripture stands. I explained your misunderstanding on Galatians 3:3. It’s not what you think it means. There is Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 that you are ignoring in order to make your view of that work. Paul is referring to the false heresy of “circumcision for salvation” in Galatians 3:3. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law that no longer applies under the New Covenant.

In context: Paul was clearly speaking of the Old Law (that no longer applies). For which Law came 430 years after the Promise given to Abraham? (See: Galatians 3:16-17).

Also, what have believers begun in the Spirit in Galatians 3:3?
Is that not holy living or the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, and peace?

You say salvation is not conditional, but practically every page of the Bible says otherwise (Verses like Philippians 2:12, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Romans 8:13, and Romans 11:22, etcetera). In my view, it just seems like you want to believe something contrary to Scripture because that is what you have been taught and or that is what you prefer to be true.