James versus Paul? Works of the law vs. works of faith

[Curtis]

PAUL: Abraham was justified apart from works.

JAMES: Abraham WAS justified by works, as are all men

Conflicting scriptures? No, it’s two different kinds of works.

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.

They quote Ephesians 2:8-9 about being saved apart from works, without having a clue what works Paul’s talking about, then assume any condition or requirement of a believer is a work, then declare confidently that absolutely nothing is required of us after salvation.

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because there many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.

They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses.

In Paul’s writings - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.

Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses.

* (Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)

We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept.

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses - and James is about works required of believers for justification.

James is talking about works of faith that take care of those in need: widows and orphans, James 1:27, those naked and hungry James 2:15, which is part of keeping the royal law, the law of love, (per the great commandment Jesus gave, which has two parts: loving God with all our heart, and loving our neighbors as ourselves), and we are judged if we fail to keep the royal law, James 2:8-13.

James warns us to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22, , and deceiving ourselves.

In fact Jesus sends to hell as sinners, those who did nothing to help the needy in Matthew 25:31-46.

We know from James that the damned in Matthew 25:31-46 failed to keep the royal law, of love - (and scripture says if you know to do good and fail to do it, that’s a sin) - thus they are sent to hell as sinners, for their sin of ignoring those in need - they are the epitome of those who failed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell. James 1:22

Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.

Are we justified by works of faith in taking care of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the needy? Absolutely yes.


Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:15 If a brotherly sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,


Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?


Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone


There you have it:

Paul: we are not justified by the (613) works of the law of Moses.

James: we are justified by works of helping the needy (and obedience to the royal law of love)

 

[prism]

We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone.

 

[Curtis]

We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

 

[prism]

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

Paul spends four chapters in Romans plus four more chapters in Galatians teaching about how we are justified. James spends only 6 verses describing a false faith, and so you appeal to James.

Remember James does not contradict Paul because the Holy Spirit won't contradict Himself...

Romans 4:2 (NASB) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

 

[amigo de christo]

The title of this thread is a lie my friends . There is no james verses paul nor paul verses james . THEY AGREED .
Its just a big misunderstanding by those who do lack understanding .

 

[Ziggy]

There you have it:

Paul: we are not justified by the (613) works of the law of Moses.

James: we are justified by works of helping the needy (and obedience to the royal law of love)

I agree.

They are speaking of two seperate laws.
Paul states we are not justified by the works of the law of Moses. ie: washing hands, animal sacrifices, the things Jesus warned the Pharisees about.

James is talking about the law of loving your neighbor as yourself.

the only (vs) there is, is between the two laws, not between Paul and James.

And there are two kinds of works.
One works under Moses's law.
One works under God's law.

One works is outward showing one's own self-justification.
The other works is inward showing one's justification by faith through "good works" .

That word "works" is a stumblingstone to many for sure.

It's the dividing of the bone (flesh works) and the marrow (spiritual works) .

Paul is speaking of the Bone and James is speaking of the Marrow.

Just my thoughts
Hugs

 

[Charlie24]

It's my opinion that James was not all he should have been!

The many problems Paul had with the Jews everywhere he went could have been minimized if James had taken the stand of Paul, and declared at the Council of Jerusalem that not only were the Gentiles not subject to the Law but also the Jews!

Paul didn't beat around the bush about it, James did. He was the head pastor of the church in Jerusalem with the final say, and I think he didn't declare this because of his fear of the Jews.

Of course the feasts were to be observed by the Jews but the sacrificial system and the keeping of the Law for salvation was fulfilled in Christ, and James knew that. But yet, even in his epistle, James could not make the clear break from the Law that Paul made.

Paul made it absolutely clear where he stood when he said in Romans 3:28,

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Even though we can see that James is not speaking of Law as far as works with salvation, he leaves that doubt of works, whereas Paul left no doubt.

 

[Curtis]

Paul spends four chapters in Romans plus four more chapters in Galatians teaching about how we are justified. James spends only 6 verses describing a false faith, and so you appeal to James.

Remember James does not contradict Paul because the Holy Spirit won't contradict Himself...

Romans 4:2 (NASB) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

As I said, Pauls emphasis is heavily on gentile believers not having to keep the works of the law of Moses.

You exposed the fact you didn’t actually read all I wrote, or you’d know why Paul spent so much time countering the Jewish Christians claim that gentile believers had to keep the works of the law of Moses.

 

[prism]

If our works (good bad or whatever) can add to the sufficiency of the Perfect and Sinless Work of Jesus Christ then we are denigrating His perfect obedience by our half baked self righteous acts.

His perfect obedience is imputed to our account through faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.
In that way we are declared righteous (justified) as a free gift of righteousness.

Romans 5:16 (NASB) The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Romans 5:19 (NASB) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[prism]

As I said, Pauls emphasis is heavily on gentile believers not having to keep the works of the law of Moses.

You exposed the fact you didn’t actually read all I wrote, or you’d know why Paul spent so much time countering the Jewish Christians claim that gentile believers had to keep the works of the law of Moses.

No I didn't read all you wrote for it was you who challenged me. I have studied this topic for 4 decades.

 

[Curtis]

The title of this thread is a lie my friends . There is no james verses paul nor paul verses james . THEY AGREED .
Its just a big misunderstanding by those who do lack understanding .

Wow, you have no idea in the world what the facts are.

PAUL: Abraham was justified APART FROM WORKS

JAMES: Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS as are all men.

That seeming contradiction is explained, along with the kind of works each apostle wrote about.

 

[prism]

I agree.

They are speaking of two seperate laws.
Paul states we are not justified by the works of the law of Moses. ie: washing hands, animal sacrifices, the things Jesus warned the Pharisees about.

James is talking about the law of loving your neighbor as yourself.

the only (vs) there is, is between the two laws, not between Paul and James.

And there are two kinds of works.
One works under Moses's law.
One works under God's law.

One works is outward showing one's own self-justification.
The other works is inward showing one's justification by faith through "good works" .

That word "works" is a stumblingstone to many for sure.

It's the dividing of the bone (flesh works) and the marrow (spiritual works) .

Paul is speaking of the Bone and James is speaking of the Marrow.

Just my thoughts
Hugs

You'll see this 'two law' view isn't true if you read Romans 7 where Paul brings up the moral law about coveting and shows due to the weakness of the flesh we still fail at attaining righteousness by the moral law.

 

[Ziggy]

It's my opinion that James was not all he should have been!

The many problems Paul had with the Jews everywhere he went could have been minimized if James had taken the stand of Paul, and declared at the Council of Jerusalem that not only were the Gentiles not subject to the Law but also the Jews!

Paul didn't beat around the bush about it, James did. He was the head pastor of the church in Jerusalem with the final say, and I think he didn't declare this because of his fear of the Jews.

Of course the feasts were to be observed by the Jews but the sacrificial system and the keeping of the Law for salvation was fulfilled in Christ, and James knew that. But yet, even in his epistle, James could not make the clear break from the Law that Paul made.

Paul made it absolutely clear where he stood when he said in Romans 3:28,

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Even though we can see that James is not speaking of Law as far as works with salvation, he leaves that doubt of works, whereas Paul left no doubt.

I can only imagine what an "unpopular" message they were tryig to bring to the world.
Trying not to scatter but to gather the various groups of Jews and Gentiles under one roof.
Like walking on eggshells for some.
You ever find yourself trying to walk a fine line in a conversation. Trying to get your point across without causing an offence?
And this was still a new teaching, a new concept. And you could be killed and many were killed for opposing the laws of Moses.
I have never been a missionary that travel to other parts of the world, trying to bring the Gospel.
Some places are extremely hostile. Others are willing to listen.
But it's hard to say how one would bring a "new religion" in to replace an old one.
Culture Shock.

Interesting conversation
Thank You
Hugs

 

[Curtis]

If our works (good bad or whatever) can add to the sufficiency of the Perfect and Sinless Work of Jesus Christ then we are denigrating His perfect obedience by our half baked self righteous acts.

His perfect obedience is imputed to our account through faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.
In that way we are declared righteous (justified) as a free gift of righteousness.

Romans 5:16 (NASB) The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Romans 5:19 (NASB) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Abraham was justified by works which PERFECTED HIS FAITH - James.

You still obviously haven’t read what I wrote.

The topic is the fact that there clearly are works that justify believers, that Paul’s emphasis against keeping works of the law of Moses, does not negate.

We are justified by faith, yes - and works that fulfill the royal law of faith are part of being justified by faith, in fact James quotes Paul, then adds that Abraham’s works modified his faith, i e, PERFECTED his faith.

It’s not faith then works. It’s the combination of faith and works, together, at the same time.

You cannot be saved apart from faith. You cannot have saving faith unless combined with works of obedience in fulfilling the royal law of love, given us by Jesus.

 

[Ziggy]

You'll see this 'two law' view isn't true if you read Romans 7 where Paul brings up the moral law about coveting and shows due to the weakness of the flesh we still fail at attaining righteousness by the moral law.

The two laws: Romans chapter 7

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Because we are not saved by our own righteousness.
James talks about bringing forth fruits from the inward man, the Law of God.
Paul is showing us the dividing of the bone (law of sin) and the marrow (law of mind)

There is an internal spiritual war going on in each of us individually.
The law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit.

You have the works of the flesh and the works of the spirit.

Works of the law and works of the spirit.

coveting begins in the heart and leads to the manifestation in the flesh.
Paul says his mind is at war between knowing not to covet and yet the desire to covet is there.
This desiring is where the battle is either won or lost.

And if we rely on our own willpower to overcome the desire, chances are we will lose the fight.
If we rely on the Lord and His willpower, We will surely win.

So the battle between the wills.

Lots of battles going on isn't there, all the time?

But no worries...
He has overcome the world.
And so shall we, if we allow Him to fight for us.

Hugs

 

[Curtis]

You'll see this 'two law' view isn't true if you read Romans 7 where Paul brings up the moral law about coveting and shows due to the weakness of the flesh we still fail at attaining righteousness by the moral law.

The law Paul speaks of is, GUESS WHAT, the good ole LAW OF MOSES.

You are still showing that you just don’t get it.

Ziggy is right on the money.

The law of Moses has ended for believers- which is why, per my OP, Paul extensively countered the continuing first century claim by Jewish converts to Christianity, that gentile believers had to be circumcised AND keep the works of the law of Moses.

Thus when you quote Paul as he refutes the claim that gentile believers are still under the law of Moses, it shows you’re still not up to speed on this topic.

Paul: we don’t keep the works of the law of Moses for justification , (because we’ve died to that law as believers). .

James: we do keep the works of the law of love, aka the royal law, which takes care of the poor, the hungry, the naked, widows and orphans, which is part of our justification by faith, because it PERFECTS our faith:

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


All that is found in my OP.

 

[Charlie24]

I can only imagine what an "unpopular" message they were tryig to bring to the world.
Trying not to scatter but to gather the various groups of Jews and Gentiles under one roof.
Like walking on eggshells for some.
You ever find yourself trying to walk a fine line in a conversation. Trying to get your point across without causing an offence?
And this was still a new teaching, a new concept. And you could be killed and many were killed for opposing the laws of Moses.
I have never been a missionary that travel to other parts of the world, trying to bring the Gospel.
Some places are extremely hostile. Others are willing to listen.
But it's hard to say how one would bring a "new religion" in to replace an old one.
Culture Shock.

Interesting conversation
Thank You
Hugs

Seems the Lord knew exactly who to send on that mission, and gave him almost 1/3 of New Testament scripture to explain it. He surly wasn't a weakling like myself. He was a man's man if there has ever has been one!

 

[prism]

Lots of battles going on isn't there, all the time?

But no worries...
He has overcome the world.
And so shall we, if we allow Him to fight for us.

Lots of battles but Jesus won the war at Calvary…

Romans 8:3 KJV
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[prism]

Abraham was justified by works which PERFECTED HIS FAITH - James.

You still obviously haven’t read what I wrote.

The topic is the fact that there clearly are works that justify believers, that Paul’s emphasis against keeping works of the law of Moses, does not negate.

We are justified by faith, yes - and works that fulfill the royal law of faith are part of being justified by faith, in fact James quotes Paul, then adds that Abraham’s works modified his faith, i e, PERFECTED his faith.

It’s not faith then works. It’s the combination of faith and works, together, at the same time.

You cannot be saved apart from faith. You cannot have saving faith unless combined with works of obedience in fulfilling the royal law of love, given us by Jesus.

Good works may justify us before men that they may glorify God on account of them, but our good works doesn’t justify us before God, only the perfect works of Jesus Christ does that as they are put to our account through faith in Jesus. That way the Son is glorified and our boasting is excluded.

 

[prism]

The law Paul speaks of is, GUESS WHAT, the good ole LAW OF MOSES.

You are still showing that you just don’t get it.

Ziggy is right on the money.

The law of Moses has ended for believers- which is why, per my OP, Paul extensively countered the continuing first century claim by Jewish converts to Christianity, that gentile believers had to be circumcised AND keep the works of the law of Moses.

Thus when you quote Paul as he refutes the claim that gentile believers are still under the law of Moses, it shows you’re still not up to speed on this topic.

Paul: we don’t keep the works of the law of Moses for justification , (because we’ve died to that law as believers). .

James: we do keep the works of the law of love, aka the royal law, which takes care of the poor, the hungry, the naked, widows and orphans, which is part of our justification by faith, because it PERFECTS our faith:

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


All that is found in my OP.

I’m sorry about your confusion on the matter. Any form of righteous acts do not justify us before God.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags when compared to the righteousness of Christ.
Your false divisions of the law puts you in danger of preaching another Gospel…


Galatians 1:8-9 KJV
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Please learn what biblical justification is before you try to teach others.