James versus Paul? Works of the law vs. works of faith

[DPMartin]

I want to bring up some scriptural comparisons to make a slightly different point:

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Romans 4:2 KJV
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Those are the main two, but a few more reminders to back up the point:

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ephesians 2:9 KJV
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 6:13 KJV
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Romans 3:27 KJV
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Matthew 6:2 KJV
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[Jesus goes on to make the same point about praying and fasting and that they should be done in secret].

Here is the point I am making: in the quote by James he is speaking about showing his faith to who? A man! The Romans quote by Paul says that if Abraham uses works to justify himself, its doing so before men, but not God.

This is consistent with both these men of God: James was a staunch believer in following the law while Paul was not. James is tring to justify himself to men; Paul is speaking of justification in the eyes of God.

I gave a bunch of other scripture to show that when you try to use works to justify yourself, it'll work with men, but God isn't paying much attention when you do that.
.

thanks, that's a excellent point, in the case with James though it seems seeing he walked with the Lord and is the brother of John I'd say his point of view is more of, you know a tree by its fruits. also one must remember Paul wasn't against the law, he was against man's requirement to fulfill it as Jesus did for one's salvation. here Paul shows he isn't against it:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

and if you give it some thought, what does one have to do to establish a thing. perform it correct? so how is James and Paul any different at all?

Jesus fulfilled the law, therefore, His Life He has given that the born again receive does what in the living thereof? to the perfection of Christ? no, but as John says when we see Him we will be like Him.

 

[marks]

What works justify us before God when it is God who is Just and the Justifier?…


Romans 3:26 KJV
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We declare Him as the Righteous One, not ourselves.

Are some of us maybe thinking we have to do good works to convince God we mean it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Galatians 6:13 KJV
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Ah . . . thank you! That's one I was looking for! I was in the wrong chapter! But it doesn't hurt to read a couple of chapters of Galatians on a thread like this! Much love!

People put their requirements on others, it a way to take power, and to notch your belt, and glory in their flesh . . . why would he say "FLESH"? Maybe because that's what Law appeals to?

Much love!

 

[prism]

Are some of us maybe thinking we have to do good works to convince God we mean it?

Much love!

Or deep down we know our 'good' works aren't good enough, and so like AVIS car rental, 'we try harder'. LOL

 

[FHII]

and if you give it some thought, what does one have to do to establish a thing. perform it correct? so how is James and Paul any different at all?

If you read the book of James with what God had in mind, there is no difference. But if you reas the book of James with what James had in mind, there is a huge difference.

James was very carnal and was a big believer in rhe Law. Paul was not. People like to say James and Paul were in agreement, but the Bible says otherwise. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but it notes conflicts and tells you how to deal with them.

faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent.

Most people deny the biblical method for getting faith to begin with. Faith comes by hearing rhe Word of God through a preacher, but there are quite a few folks that believe they are independant contractors. They and Jesus got their own thing going!

 

[FHII]

Are some of us maybe thinking we have to do good works to convince God we mean it?

Much love!

Well that depends if there is a difference between works and good works.

 

[marks]

Well that depends if there is a difference between works and good works.

I'd have to say God knows regardless.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

how is James and Paul any different at all?

Precious friend, there is NO Difference IF, as Most assume, there is only one gospel,
the TWELVE and Paul said Exactly THE SAME thing, and "prophecy/law" are Exactly
THE SAME THING as "The Revelation Of The MYSTERY," and GRACE!

What IF humble and Diligent Bible students have found Scriptural Evidence
to the contrary? Would you take a few moments to investigate?
God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Precious friend, Please:
be Richly Encouraged, enlightened, exhorted, and edified!
God's Simple Will

 

[FHII]

I'd have to say God knows regardless.

Much love!

That is true. But God left his Word for us and to let us know what to do.

 

[prism]

If you read the book of James with what God had in mind, there is no difference. But if you reas the book of James with what James had in mind, there is a huge difference.

James was very carnal and was a big believer in rhe Law. Paul was not. People like to say James and Paul were in agreement, but the Bible says otherwise. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but it notes conflicts and tells you how to deal with them.

faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent.

Most people deny the biblical method for getting faith to begin with. Faith comes by hearing rhe Word of God through a preacher, but there are quite a few folks that believe they are independant contractors. They and Jesus got their own thing going!

Galatians 2:9 KJV
[9] And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

 

[FHII]

Galatians 2:9 KJV
[9] And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

And...
Oh yeah... The seemed to be pillars. They had a reputation. They were big wigs. What did they add to Paul?

Nothing.

 

[prism]

And...
Oh yeah... The seemed to be pillars. They had a reputation. They were big wigs. What did they add to Paul?

Nothing.

True, but reading Gal 1&2, they (including James) were in agreement with Paul's message of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[FHII]

True, but reading Gal 1&2, they (including James) were in agreement with Paul's message of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Oh really? Wow....

 

[Curtis]

The two laws: Romans chapter 7

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Because we are not saved by our own righteousness.
James talks about bringing forth fruits from the inward man, the Law of God.
Paul is showing us the dividing of the bone (law of sin) and the marrow (law of mind)

There is an internal spiritual war going on in each of us individually.
The law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit.

You have the works of the flesh and the works of the spirit.

Works of the law and works of the spirit.

coveting begins in the heart and leads to the manifestation in the flesh.
Paul says his mind is at war between knowing not to covet and yet the desire to covet is there.
This desiring is where the battle is either won or lost.

And if we rely on our own willpower to overcome the desire, chances are we will lose the fight.
If we rely on the Lord and His willpower, We will surely win.

So the battle between the wills.

Lots of battles going on isn't there, all the time?

But no worries...
He has overcome the world.
And so shall we, if we allow Him to fight for us.

Hugs

That battle is

It's not that we are "justified" by good works.
It's the fruit that comes from faith.
The fruit is the works.
The fruits justify themselves.
We cannot produce good fruit unless we are abiding in the vine.
Therefore the works or fruits do not originate from us, but from the vine/Lord which produces the fruit/works through us.
It is difficult to give something unless one first receives.

There's that song again..
I love this song.
HUGS

Two problems there:
1. Jesus says in John 15, that He is the vine, and we are the branches, and warns that if we bear no fruit, we shall be cut off from the vine of Himself as a dead branch, and burned.
This makes it obvious that just being attached to Jesus does not mean automatically producing fruit.

2. Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5-11 that in order to keep from falling, we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by choosing to ADD to our faith VIRTUE knowledge, temperance, patience , brotherly and GODLINESS, and LOVE, and states that IF we do those things, an entrance to heaven will provided unto us.

Bearing fruit - or not - is therefor up to us, and is something we must do as believers.

 

[Ziggy]

1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[Ziggy]

Where does this fruit come from?
There is a whole list...
It comes from somewhere....
and if your not bearing this fruit, then something must be missing.
And if that something is missing, then you can bear no good fruit only evil fruit.

What is that Something?

And if we can't make one hair gray, how can we alone add anything to ourselves?
It must be added to us by
Something...

Hugs

 

[Mungo]

How many times does God have to repeat Himself (in His written word) for it to be true?

One piece of scripture covers all points?
I like that. Whatever I say the same one piece of scripture is evidence.

 

[prism]

Whatever I say the same one piece of scripture is evidence.

No, you're just a man. It is whatever God says is evidence. How many times does God have to say something until it is to be believed?

 

[Mungo]

No, you're just a man. It is whatever God says is evidence. How many times does God have to say something until it is to be believed?

Once for any particular point.
But one piece of scripture doesn't cover multiple points.

 

[DPMartin]

If you read the book of James with what God had in mind, there is no difference. But if you reas the book of James with what James had in mind, there is a huge difference.

James was very carnal and was a big believer in rhe Law. Paul was not. People like to say James and Paul were in agreement, but the Bible says otherwise. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but it notes conflicts and tells you how to deal with them.

faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent.

Most people deny the biblical method for getting faith to begin with. Faith comes by hearing rhe Word of God through a preacher, but there are quite a few folks that believe they are independant contractors. They and Jesus got their own thing going!

just because the Lord established the church to accommodate the Ministry of Grace doesn't mean the message is limited to the confines of the church. you forget Paul was independent of the ministry and preaching the gospel years before he was invited to join the Ministry of grace.

and in the Kingdom of God there is no independence from God so, you may want to rethink your views on that, ask Elijah if he was independent of his people, but you can be sure he wasn't independent of the Lord.

a relationship with the Lord doesn't require a relationship with the church. the church should be more concerned with its own relationship with the Lord God then accusing others of falling short for not having a relationship with them. the church is supposed to accommodate and edify its member's relationship with the Lord, not insists it is entitled to stand between its members and the Lord.