James versus Paul? Works of the law vs. works of faith

[Ziggy]

Good works may justify us before men that they may glorify God on account of them, but our good works doesn’t justify us before God, only the perfect works of Jesus Christ does that as they are put to our account through faith in Jesus. That way the Son is glorified and our boasting is excluded.

It's not that we are "justified" by good works.
It's the fruit that comes from faith.
The fruit is the works.
The fruits justify themselves.
We cannot produce good fruit unless we are abiding in the vine.
Therefore the works or fruits do not originate from us, but from the vine/Lord which produces the fruit/works through us.
It is difficult to give something unless one first receives.

There's that song again..
I love this song.
HUGS

 

[Mungo]

Good works may justify us before men that they may glorify God on account of them, but our good works doesn’t justify us before God, only the perfect works of Jesus Christ does that as they are put to our account through faith in Jesus. That way the Son is glorified and our boasting is excluded.

I’m sorry about your confusion on the matter. Any form of righteous acts do not justify us before God.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags when compared to the righteousness of Christ.

Do you have any evidence for these claims?

 

[Daniel Veler]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are exactly that. Most people think of the gifts as speaking in tongues or casting out devils but ignored the others. Like God putting his love in our heart to walk in. Or a measure of Faith or patience. All these and more are God’s gift to us to walk in. As the apostle wrote those that say they love God and hate their brother is a liar the love of God IS NOT IN THEM. These are the works of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).

*Perfect Harmony*

 

[prism]

It's not that we are "justified" by good works.
It's the fruit that comes from faith.
The fruit is the works.

That’s correct, fruit which God produces in them who are already justified by faith and born again.

 

[prism]

Do you have any evidence for these claims?

What works justify us before God when it is God who is Just and the Justifier?…


Romans 3:26 KJV
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We declare Him as the Righteous One, not ourselves.

 

[DPMartin]

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.

They quote Ephesians 2:8-9 about being saved apart from works, without having a clue what works Paul’s talking about, then assume any condition or requirement of a believer is a work, then declare confidently that absolutely nothing is required of us after salvation.

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because there many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.

They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses.

In Paul’s writings - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.

Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses.

* (Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)

We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept.

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses - and James is about works required of believers for justification.

James is talking about works of faith that take care of those in need: widows and orphans, James 1:27, those naked and hungry James 2:15, which is part of keeping the royal law, the law of love, (per the great commandment Jesus gave, which has two parts: loving God with all our heart, and loving our neighbors as ourselves), and we are judged if we fail to keep the royal law, James 2:8-13.

James warns us to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22, , and deceiving ourselves.

In fact Jesus sends to hell as sinners, those who did nothing to help the needy in Matthew 25:31-46.

We know from James that the damned in Matthew 25:31-46 failed to keep the royal law, of love - (and scripture says if you know to do good and fail to do it, that’s a sin) - thus they are sent to hell as sinners, for their sin of ignoring those in need - they are the epitome of those who failed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell. James 1:22

Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.

Are we justified by works of faith in taking care of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the needy? Absolutely yes.


Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:15 If a brotherly sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,


Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?


Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone


There you have it:

Paul: we are not justified by the (613) works of the law of Moses.

James: we are justified by works of helping the needy (and obedience to the royal law of love)

its simple enough to understand that there is no works acceptable to the Lord God, unless they are or the faith that is acceptable to the Lord God. the constant rhetoric that works are required for salvation is butkus because without the Grace (favor) of God to accept the repentance needed to accept the faithful which is also required that would even alow one to be a partisapant in works that are of the faith that is acceptable to God.

any moron can see no one acts with out belief and or trust (faith) in what they maybe doing, or an expected outcome. which is really what James explains. if your faith is in buddha, then you will do accordingly. if you faith is in Jesus Christ then you will do accordingly. simple as that.

if you faith isn't in such and such then there will be no activity accordingly showing that the faith really isn't there. if the tree doesn't bare apples then its not an apple tree.


its been my experience that these that love to use James to justify works as a requirement for the salvation of their fellow Christians is usually with the intent of focusing those around them on what they want them to do in the name of Christianity.

 

[Mungo]

What works justify us before God when it is God who is Just and the Justifier?…


Romans 3:26 KJV
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We declare Him as the Righteous One, not ourselves.

OK, so you don't have evidence for your claims.
Useful to know that.

 

[FHII]

I want to bring up some scriptural comparisons to make a slightly different point:

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Romans 4:2 KJV
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Those are the main two, but a few more reminders to back up the point:

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ephesians 2:9 KJV
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 6:13 KJV
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Romans 3:27 KJV
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Matthew 6:2 KJV
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[Jesus goes on to make the same point about praying and fasting and that they should be done in secret].

Here is the point I am making: in the quote by James he is speaking about showing his faith to who? A man! The Romans quote by Paul says that if Abraham uses works to justify himself, its doing so before men, but not God.

This is consistent with both these men of God: James was a staunch believer in following the law while Paul was not. James is tring to justify himself to men; Paul is speaking of justification in the eyes of God.

I gave a bunch of other scripture to show that when you try to use works to justify yourself, it'll work with men, but God isn't paying much attention when you do that.

its been my experience that these that love to use James to justify works as a requirement for the salvation of their fellow Christians is usually with the intent of focusing those around them on what they want them to do in the name of Christianity

Amen DPMartin... I hope these verses are useful in backing up your experience.

 

[prism]

OK, so you don't have evidence for your claims.
Useful to know that.

I guess Scripture is insufficient as evidence?

 

[Marvelloustime]

The title of this thread is a lie my friends . There is no james verses paul nor paul verses james . THEY AGREED .
Its just a big misunderstanding by those who do lack understanding .

Brother is correct.
The glorious Lord be praised. Let us all be reading our bibles and learning them well.

 

[Mungo]

I guess Scripture is insufficient as evidence?

One bit of scripture that vaguely addresses one of you claims is insufficient.

 

[prism]

One bit of scripture that vaguely addresses one of you claims is insufficient.

How many times does God have to repeat Himself (in His written word) for it to be true?

 

[marks]

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.

Law incites and empowers sin. Enter at your own risk.

Our commandments are to trust in Jesus, and love others. Making lists to keep is designing your own Law. There is the Law and the Prophets, and to keep them you must keep ALL. There is the Law of Christ, to trust and love, those two things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

Justified before whom?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The title of this thread is a lie my friends . There is no james verses paul nor paul verses james . THEY AGREED .
Its just a big misunderstanding by those who do lack understanding .

Just so!

:)

 

[marks]

The many problems Paul had with the Jews everywhere he went could have been minimized if James had taken the stand of Paul, and declared at the Council of Jerusalem that not only were the Gentiles not subject to the Law but also the Jews!

Acts 21:20 KJV
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were "all zealous of the law". They had struggled all their lives to keep the Law, or had even given up. Now they had the spiritual freedom from sin, and the ability within to do that which they so desired. And they were zealous to keep the Law.

So to appease this, Paul consented to the vow, which led to the riot and his arrest.

But this zealousness for the Law, keep this in mind as you read some of these letters. The Jews which came and caused Peter to separate, when Paul rebuked him, these Jews came from James, they were in that culture. James did not discourage, but encouraged the keeping of the Law amoung the Jewish Christians, asking Paul to compromise himself rather than to defend Paul to the people.

To the gentiles, James and the rest wrote that they should only keep these few things, basically saying because there were Jews living among them that have been hearing Moses taught weekly throughout their lives. So don't be doing these things, and become odious to them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If our works (good bad or whatever) can add to the sufficiency of the Perfect and Sinless Work of Jesus Christ then we are denigrating His perfect obedience by our half baked self righteous acts.

His perfect obedience is imputed to our account through faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.
In that way we are declared righteous (justified) as a free gift of righteousness.

Romans 5:16 (NASB) The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Romans 5:19 (NASB) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

That's right!

:)

 

[marks]

Wow, you have no idea in the world what the facts are.

PAUL: Abraham was justified APART FROM WORKS

JAMES: Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS as are all men.

That seeming contradiction is explained, along with the kind of works each apostle wrote about.

The difference is in what you mean by "justified". People see what we do, but God knows who He begot.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can only imagine what an "unpopular" message they were tryig to bring to the world.
Trying not to scatter but to gather the various groups of Jews and Gentiles under one roof.
Like walking on eggshells for some.
You ever find yourself trying to walk a fine line in a conversation. Trying to get your point across without causing an offence?
And this was still a new teaching, a new concept. And you could be killed and many were killed for opposing the laws of Moses.
I have never been a missionary that travel to other parts of the world, trying to bring the Gospel.
Some places are extremely hostile. Others are willing to listen.
But it's hard to say how one would bring a "new religion" in to replace an old one.
Culture Shock.

Interesting conversation
Thank You
Hugs

Huge culture shock!

You've got these Jews who have been raised on the Law, but not able to keep it, all fail. Then you take away the power of sin, give them new life in Christ, and away they run, dreams fulfilled, able to actually, finally do all those things God had commanded all their lives! YAAYYY!!!!

What? We don't have to keep the Law? What do you mean? We finally CAN! Are you off your nut?

Much love!