James versus Paul? Works of the law vs. works of faith

[Episkopos]

PAUL: Abraham was justified apart from works.

JAMES: Abraham WAS justified by works, as are all men

Conflicting scriptures? No, it’s two different kinds of works.

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.

They quote Ephesians 2:8-9 about being saved apart from works, without having a clue what works Paul’s talking about, then assume any condition or requirement of a believer is a work, then declare confidently that absolutely nothing is required of us after salvation.

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because there many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.

They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses.

In Paul’s writings - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.

Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses.

* (Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)

We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept.

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses - and James is about works required of believers for justification.

James is talking about works of faith that take care of those in need: widows and orphans, James 1:27, those naked and hungry James 2:15, which is part of keeping the royal law, the law of love, (per the great commandment Jesus gave, which has two parts: loving God with all our heart, and loving our neighbors as ourselves), and we are judged if we fail to keep the royal law, James 2:8-13.

James warns us to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22, , and deceiving ourselves.

In fact Jesus sends to hell as sinners, those who did nothing to help the needy in Matthew 25:31-46.

We know from James that the damned in Matthew 25:31-46 failed to keep the royal law, of love - (and scripture says if you know to do good and fail to do it, that’s a sin) - thus they are sent to hell as sinners, for their sin of ignoring those in need - they are the epitome of those who failed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell. James 1:22

Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.

Are we justified by works of faith in taking care of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the needy? Absolutely yes.


Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:15 If a brotherly sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,


Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?


Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone


There you have it:

Paul: we are not justified by the (613) works of the law of Moses.

James: we are justified by works of helping the needy (and obedience to the royal law of love)

Exactly! Good post.

 

[Curtis]

Did Abraham do a work? Yes he did. He offered up Isaac. But the faith WAS NOT attached to his work; it was attached to the faith he had that although Isaac was about to die, God was STILL going to keep his promise that the linage would continue through a dead man (Isaac).

James is talking about works that take care of those in need: widows and orphans, James 1:27, those naked and hungry James 2:15, which is part of keeping the royal law, the law of love, (per the great commandment Jesus gave, which has two parts: loving God with all our heart, and loving our neighbors as ourselves), and we are judged if we fail to keep the royal law, James 2:8-13.


James warns us to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22, , and deceiving ourselves.


In fact Jesus sends to hell as sinners, those who did nothing to help the needy in Matthew 25:31-46.


We know from James that the damned in Matthew 25:31-46 failed to keep the royal law, of love - (and scripture says if you know to do good and fail to do it, that’s a sin) - thus they are sent to hell as sinners, for their sin of ignoring those in need - they are the epitome of those who failed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell. James 1:22


Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.


Are we justified by works of taking care of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the Absolutely yes.


Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,


Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?


Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

That’s pretty clear, it’s not faith followed later by works, it’s faith with works together.

Abraham believed God - but scripture doesn’t say when he believed God sufficiently- obviously he didn’t at the time fully believe Gods promise of a covenant son from his WIFE Sarah and himself, or he wouldn’t have had sex with the maid to have a son.

Scripture says he wasn’t justified by faith until much later, when he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him, and that work of obedience PERFECTED his faith, establishing the fact that it’s not faith followed by works, it’s faith perfected by works, that’s part of our justification.

 

[Episkopos]

People tend to reduce God to what they can wrap their minds around. Much is said that is ill-advised based on that premise.

God can see the future as well as the present. So when someone is justified by faith, God already knows whether the person will follow through or not. God knows more than we do. It takes a arrogant soul to justify oneself by one's own faith. Only God can justify a person. Only He can see into the depth of the matter. God reads the heart. But we can't even read our own hearts. This, however, will not stop the hypocrites from declaring themselves to be justified by their beliefs.

“O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps. (Jer. 10:23)

“Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24)

 

[FHII]

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

That’s pretty clear, it’s not faith followed later by works, it’s faith with works together.

All this had nothing to do with my post... I will only address it by saying if a person is justified by works, its only in the eyes of men; not God.

Abraham believed God - but scripture doesn’t say when he believed God sufficiently- obviously he didn’t at the time fully believe Gods promise of a covenant son from his WIFE Sarah and himself, or he wouldn’t have had sex with the maid to have a son.

Scripture says he wasn’t justified by faith until much later, when he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him, and that work of obedience PERFECTED his faith, establishing the fact that it’s not faith followed by works, it’s faith perfected by works, that’s part of our justification.

Offering up Isaac had nothing to so with it. The faith was in the unseen work of believing God was going to keep his promise.

 

[FHII]

Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.

James clearly believed in following the Law.

 

[Wrangler]

I have a bit of difficulty with what I placed in bold letters above. (although I agree with the 2nd part)
My favorite question to this point..."If saving faith has action, how much action must we do to be justified?"

It is a great question and I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. Abraham had to walk to the Promised Land. The Rich Man had to give his treasure to the poor. The Thief On The Cross had to just sincerely ask to be saved.

One thing they all had in common was humility. The minimum action we all must undertake is to slay the worlds biggest IDOL, our own ego.

 

[prism]

It is a great question and I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. Abraham had to walk to the Promised Land. The Rich Man had to give his treasure to the poor. The Thief On The Cross had to just sincerely ask to be saved.

One thing they all had in common was humility. The minimum action we all must undertake is to slay the worlds biggest IDOL, our own ego.

Actually, faith believes God and is justified.
"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the (message of the) cross I cling. -Toplady

Romans 4:1-3 (NASB) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

 

[FHII]

Are we justified by works of taking care of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the Absolutely yes.

I stated earlier that this portion of Curtis's post had nothing to do with my post: that is true, it didn't. I was showing that Abraham's faith was NOT justified by offering up Isaac but rather that he still believed -- though soon to be dead (or the belief of it) -- Isaac would still be the father of many.

However, I felt a need to address this point. What Curtis is saying is not necessarily wrong. I thought I had made it clear that I actually have a similar belief. I thought I had made that clear on this thread already. However, after a history search on this thread, I found I only eluded to it. My bad...

In post #45 I sated:

"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

This is not the exact same thing (as I understand it) as what Curtis is saying, but it is close and pointing in the same direction. Curtis (and by the way Curtis, I enjoy your posts and I mean no disrespect in referring to you by name instead of addressing you directly) seems to be defining what I call spiritual works as helping the poor. While that is part of it, its only a small part.

Actually, when you read carefully, James was speaking not about anyone, but the brethren. John in 1 John 3 has one of my favorite quotes on this topic when he said, " If any man have of this world's goods and sees his BROTHER in need....how dwelleth the love of God in him?"

Helping the poor who are not brethren is important, and Jesus even made that point in Matthew 5. However, James was more concerned with proper treatment of the brethren, as was Paul in I Corinthians. I strongly object that Paul and James had the same doctrine, and I don't believe they were on the same page concerning faith and works. However, I don't ignore similarities either.

I see spiritual works as much more than helping you brother, or even strangers. Grace comes by faith freely, however faith requires something. It first and foremost requires hearing the Word through preaching. Whether or not it needs to be increased is debatable, but it CAN be increased (Jesus increased the disciple's faith by preaching). Faith required putting God first (seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God...). There may be other good points you can add to this list, but none of them will be things of the flesh.... That includes giving to the poor IF you do it before men to be seen.

So the bottom line, folks (and you, Curtis) is that I don't necessarily think that the book of James is wrong. Read with a spiritual eye it is correct. The book is inspired by God who had spiritual implications in mind.

James, as a man, was NEVER on the same page as Paul. I've shown that with scriptures. James believed in keeping the Law of Moses; Paul did not. James didn't even respect Paul's doctrine on this in that he wanted Paul to prove he was keeping the Law.

That in mind, knowing that James believed Jewish Christians should keep the Law of Moses, and knowing that the Epistle was written to the 12 scattered tribes, there is little doubt that James (in his mind) was speaking not just of spiritual works, but also works of the Law.

God, on the other hand...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

Precious friend, so, Under GRACE, Today, I was NOT Justified By God, When
I placed faith, trusted, and believed In CHRIST, And HIS Finished CROSS-Work,
And HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures? Because I had NO works,
that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"?

So, what IF I "had died" shortly thereafter, Before I could PERFORM ONE "work,"
in order to Make my "faith" Existent And ALIVE? Lake of fire, Correct? huh?

 

[FHII]

Because I had NO works,
that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"

Please reread what I wrote.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

OK, RE-read what YOU said:
"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

I said:
Because I had NO works, that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"

So, what is the problem? God CANNOT "JUSTIFY" me By GRACE Through:

my "DEAD, NON-existent faith" UNTIL I perform TWO {or MORE} "spiritual workS"?

 

[Episkopos]

Precious friend, so, Under GRACE, Today, I was NOT Justified By God, When
I placed faith, trusted, and believed In CHRIST, And HIS Finished CROSS-Work,
And HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures? Because I had NO works,
that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"?

So, what IF I "had died" shortly thereafter, Before I could PERFORM ONE "work,"
in order to Make my "faith" Existent And ALIVE? Lake of fire, Correct? huh?

You are equating a religious set of beliefs with faith. But these are a universe apart. There is no credal salvation. The New Testament is not about adopting a certain dogmatic belief system. It's about walking in a new life, which is by grace through faith.

 

[Addy]

OK, RE-read what YOU said:
"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

I said:
Because I had NO works, that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"

So, what is the problem? God CANNOT "JUSTIFY" me By GRACE Through:

my "DEAD, NON-existent faith" UNTIL I perform TWO {or MORE} "spiritual workS"?

I needed a good dose of you today... The wolves are out in full force.

 

[farouk]

I needed a good dose of you today... The wolves are out in full force.

@Addy Ephesians 2.1-10 is a great antidote! :)

 

[FHII]

OK, RE-read what YOU said:
"faith without spiritual works are not only dead, but nonexistent."

I said:
Because I had NO works, that "faith" was not only "dead, BUT Nonexistent"

So, what is the problem? God CANNOT "JUSTIFY" me By GRACE Through:

my "DEAD, NON-existent faith" UNTIL I perform TWO {or MORE} "spiritual workS"?

Well look at the diffeeence between what I said and what you said. I know you see it because at the end of your post you put the difference in quotes. If tou feel I am wrong and believe you don't need spiritual works then we can discuss that. Just don't misquote me.

Edit: Grace is freely given to those who have faith. But faith must be obtained and contended for. It can and should be increased.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I needed a good dose of you today... The wolves are out in full force.

Thanks Very Precious friend, Addy. The critics do NOT want the Scriptural Truth
That God "GAVE me and you HIS FREE Gift of Eternal Life" Before we Even
performed ONE "righteous work," thus Denying Every One Of THESE Plain And
Clear Passages in this "study":
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!

I'm sure you, as a Very Diligent Bible "student"
have Already checked Them out.

Please be Richly Encouraged, enlightened, exhorted, and edified!
God's Simple Will

And, Precious friend, Again, looking forward to
Seeing you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ :) ↑

 

[GRACE ambassador]

You are equating a religious set of beliefs with faith. But these are a universe apart. There is no credal salvation. The New Testament is not about adopting a certain dogmatic belief system. It's about walking in a new life, which is by grace through faith.

Precious friend, I've Already been through Many of the credal religions, and
WILL NEVER return to Any of them.

My faith/walk is in/of The LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIM Alone, According
To The "Preaching Of JESUS CHRIST, According To The Revelation Of
The MYSTERY," GRACE Through faith, Found In Romans Through Philemon!

NO credal stuff! So, what is the problem?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Well look at the diffeeence between what I said and what you said. I know you see it because at the end of your post you put the difference in quotes. If tou feel I am wrong and believe you don't need spiritual works then we can discuss that. Just don't misquote me.

Wow, can't ask a legitimate question about my "DEAD faith WITHOUT works" and
WHEN "it is Made ALIVE," so that I can KNOW, WHEN I am JUSTIFIED, By God:
Is it:

(1) At The EXACT MOMENT of my "DEAD faith WITHOUT works,"? OR:

(2) WHEN I perform "ONE spiritual WORK,"? OR:

(3) WHEN I perform "TWO or MORE spiritual workS,"? OR:

(4) WHEN I perform "PERFECTLY, FOR ALL my life, spiritual workS???

Well, EXACTLY "WHEN am I JUSTIFIED By God, For Eternal Life"?

So sorry, if I misquoted you. BUT:

Doesn't seem to me, or Precious friend @Addy, according to
YOUR theology, God HAS HIS FREE Gift Of Eternal Life, For us.
(Romans 5 : 15-18 KJB! = GIFT X 5, and FREE GIFT X THREE!!!)

Please be Richly Encouraged, enlightened, exhorted, and edified!
God's Simple Will

 

[FHII]

Wow, can't ask a legitimate question about my "DEAD faith WITHOUT works" and
WHEN "it is Made ALIVE," so that I can KNOW, WHEN I am JUSTIFIED, By God:
Is it:

(1) At The EXACT MOMENT of my "DEAD faith WITHOUT works,"? OR:

(2) WHEN I perform "ONE spiritual WORK,"? OR:

(3) WHEN I perform "TWO or MORE spiritual workS,"? OR:

(4) WHEN I perform "PERFECTLY, FOR ALL my life, spiritual workS???

Well, EXACTLY "WHEN am I JUSTIFIED By God, For Eternal Life"?

So sorry, if I misquoted you. BUT:

Doesn't seem to me, or Precious friend @Addy, according to
YOUR theology, God HAS HIS FREE Gift Of Eternal Life, For us.
(Romans 5 : 15-18 KJB! = GIFT X 5, and FREE GIFT X THREE!!!)

Please be Richly Encouraged, enlightened, exhorted, and edified!
God's Simple Will

Oh good Lord, this is ridiculous!

You are called to abide in him and he is supposed to abide in you. Its not about how many spiritual works you do, you are supposed to BE spiritual. When? All the time! Yes, we are in the flesh but we are supposed to keep our mind on spiritual things, and that requires more than just calling people your precious friend.

Yes, God knows you are in the flesh and he is forgiving of that. He doesn't require us to keep the Law and he doesn't require works of the flesh, but he does require your life.

Or is that just too much to give?

 

[marks]

Wow, can't ask a legitimate question about my "DEAD faith WITHOUT works" and
WHEN "it is Made ALIVE," so that I can KNOW, WHEN I am JUSTIFIED, By God:
Is it:

You question is answered here, if you can accept it.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believe . . . receive . . . be born again!

Much love!