It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Douggg]

You demand that I interpret Deut 30:2-6 after you ignore and fail to address about 90% of the passages that I bring up.

I am not demanding that you interpret Deuteronomy 30:2-6. I am asking you the explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

 

[WPM]

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is the gathering of the children of Israel from all the nations to the land of Israel. Explain when that will happen. There are still Jews in the nations all around the world. So it has not happened yet.

The Jews in Deuteronomy 30:2-6 are not given new bodies. They will be gathered from the nations to the land of Israel in their existing bodies.

Hello! Israel was gathered back to the land many times during the OT, including from Babylon for the arrival of their Messiah. This has nothing to do with end-times. This is another Dispensatanist lie. This is long-fulfilled.

1. Show me any land promises under the new covenant (in the NT)?
2. Where is a rapture mentioned here?
3. Where is a future great tribulation mentioned here?
4. Where is a 3rd coming of Christ mentioned here?

 

[WPM]

I have been providing proof text and extended explanations of the order of events. And have shown timeline charts for the rapture/resurrection.

So it is time for you and @WPM to do something that validates your Amil view of when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is the gathering of the children of Israel from all the nations to the land of Israel. Explain when that will happen. There are still Jews in the nations all around the world. So it has not happened yet.

I disagree. It doesn't say that literally every Jew had to be gathered. But, some were gathered from every nation long ago already.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello! Israel was gathered back to the land many times during the OT, including from Babylon for the arrival of their Messiah. This has nothing to do with end-times. This is another Dispensatanist lie. This is long-fulfilled.

1. Show me any land promises under the new covenant (in the NT)?
2. Where is a rapture mentioned here?
3. Where is a future great tribulation mentioned here?
4. Where is a 3rd coming of Christ mentioned here?

Agree. Incredibly, they have no concern that they can't use the NT to confirm their interpretations of the OT. It's as if they think they know the OT better than the NT authors and Jesus did.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not demanding that you interpret Deuteronomy 30:2-6. I am asking you the explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

You, of course, can't demand that I do anything, but you are expecting me to do that before you address my points. You want a one way discussion where, for the most part, I am the only having to address your points and questions while you can just ignore mine.

Anyway, I did address Deut 30:2-6 at this point, so please go back and address more than just maybe 5 or 10% of what I've said.

 

[marks]

This prophecy tells you all you need to understand this regathering, when, how extensive, to what purpose, all of that.

You can ridicule, you can ignore, you can do whatever you want, but you cannot change God's words. You will either believe or disbelieve, and it's very clear who believes and who does not.

Debating prophecy with those who don't believe it is not a profitable exercise.

Ezekiel 39:11-29 KJV
11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12) And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13) Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14) And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15) And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16) And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[Douggg]

Hello! Israel was gathered back to the land many times during the OT, including from Babylon for the arrival of their Messiah. This has nothing to do with end-times.

I disagree. It doesn't say that literally every Jew had to be gathered. But, some were gathered from every nation long ago already.

Try again. None of the Jews will be left in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Who sends out his angels in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 to gather the elect ?
Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

 

[marks]

Try again. None of the Jews will be left in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Who sends out his angels in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 to gather the elect ?
Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

Exactly! It's not fulfilled unless all the details are met, and these prophecies most certainly will be fulfilled. Jesus' prophesied the same as the prophets spoke to Israel. There is a very established body of prophecy that this will happen.

We just have to be willing to believe the entire Bible, not just pick out a few parts that seem to fit what we think.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Try again. None of the Jews will be left in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Who sends out his angels in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 to gather the elect ?
Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[covenantee]

I am not demanding that you interpret Deuteronomy 30:2-6. I am asking you the explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

You mean, "when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 did take place".

Deuteronomy 30
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[Douggg]

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

You are hoping to change the focus away from your and @Spiritual Israelite 's inability to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 takes place. The time has come for you to give Amil a decent burial.

 

[covenantee]

You are hoping to change the focus away from your and @Spiritual Israelite 's inability to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 takes place. The time has come for you to give Amil a decent burial.

You mean, "when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 took place".

Deuteronomy 30
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[Douggg]

You mean, "when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 took place".

Deuteronomy 30
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 involves gathering the children of Israel from all the nations around the world.

Differently, Joshua 21 is the list of cites given to the different tribes (which cities for which tribe was determined by drawing lots) for inheritance and was issued after coming out of the Egyptian bondage, a single nation.

Try again. The fulfillment Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28.

 

[covenantee]

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 involves gathering the children of Israel from all the nations around the world.

Differently, Joshua 21 is the list of cites given to the different tribes (which cities for which tribe was determined by drawing lots) for inheritance and was issued after coming out of the Egyptian bondage, a single nation.

Try again. The fulfillment Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28.

Yes, Joshua 21 was a physical fulfillment of a physical promise.

But Mark and Matthew are not the fulfillment of Deuteronomy.

Because the NT elect is/are the Church.

Only the children of Israel who are in the Church through faith in Christ are part of the NT elect.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

[Davy]

I have to laugh at much of this debate, because even though I'm post-trib, I understand why the "house of Judah" is not mentioned in the following promise written in Hebrews...

Heb 8:10-13
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that He saith, 'A new covenant', He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

The first part of the prophecy (Jer.31:31) includes both the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel". But Jer.31:33 only mentions the "house of Israel".

Only those who have studied their Old Testament history would understand why the "house of Judah" is omitted in that second part of that prophecy.

1. the "house of Judah" represents the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" after God split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms with two separate kings (1 Kings 11 forward). That "house of Judah" was made up of 3 tribes of Israel; the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

2. But the majority of Israelites, the ten northern tribes of Israel, made up that actual "kingdom of Israel" after the split. God gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to reign over the ten northern tribes. And these ten tribes fell away first, and God scattered them first while the "house of Judah" remained faithful in the southern lands, for a while. The ten tribes became 'lost', meaning God caused them to lose knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel, including His feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, which this was actually prophecy He gave about the ten tribes via His prophet Hosea.

3. The "house of Judah" 3-tribe kingdom at Jerusalem-Judea became known as Jews. And the stranger who lived among them took that title of Jew also. God scattered them too for falling away to idol worship, but He brought a remnant of them back to the holy land, even as He promised He would do also for the latter days (Jer.24). The facts of history about the Jews actually is that they only make-up about 1/3 of the total seed of Israel. The majority of the seed of Israel are still unknown today, lost among the Gentiles, and think they are Gentiles, having lost their Israelite heritage (but God has not lost them, even as He promised to gather them per His prophet Amos).

4. Where did the majority of Israelites, the ten tribes, go after they were taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes? They migrated further into the countries, went through the Caucasus Mountains near the Black Sea, and became known as Caucasians, fleeing into Asia Minor and Europe. They eventually became... the western Christian nations of Christian history.

5. This is why that Hebrews 8:10 promise was fulfilled among the ten tribed "house of Israel" scattered to the West, but not yet for the "house of Judah" (Jews), for the majority of today's Jews still reject Jesus Christ as Messiah. Eventually, when Jesus returns, the majority of them will convert, and then the prophecy to BOTH houses will be fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Keraz]

Somehow, none of the NT authors knew about this since they wrote absolutely nothing about that. How do you explain that?

Paul knew about the holy Land being the place where all the faithful Christians will be gathered to. In Romans 9:24-26, he quoted Hosea 1:9-11: The House of Israel, now as many as the sands of the sea, will be called the children of the Living God and will spring up on the Land.

 

[WPM]

You are hoping to change the focus away from your and @Spiritual Israelite 's inability to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 takes place. The time has come for you to give Amil a decent burial.

Not so. You are creating a new subject which diverts people away from the Op. Please answer my question.

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are hoping to change the focus away from your and @Spiritual Israelite 's inability to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 takes place. The time has come for you to give Amil a decent burial.

What are you talking about? I addressed that in post 1,404. Stop lying. You are the one revealing your inability to explain the difference between being gathered from the uttermost part of the earth an being gathered from the uttermost part of heaven, as Mark 13:27 describes. You don't want to address how that lines up with 1 Thess 4:14-17 which also describes a gathering of the elect from both heaven and earth.

How about you give us all a good laugh and share your utterly ridiculous interpretation of 1 Thess 5:2-3 again?

 

[Douggg]

Not so. You are creating a new subject which diverts people away from the Op. Please answer my question.

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

You have asked that same misleading question many, many time before.

The answer is the same.

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Could happen anytime between now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in 2Thessalonians2:4.

----------------------------------------

So explain in conjunction with which of those three comings is when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place, when no Jew will be left in the nations, as they all will be brought to the land of Israel..

It can't be at Jesus's first coming obviously.

It can't be at Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection event because that event entails being taken to heaven, not Israel.

That leaves only at Jesus's Second Coming. The gathering of the elect in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28.

Admit it and give the Amil belief a decent burial.