It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts.
Noah gathered preflood/ pretrib.
Normal life and commerce at that gathering.
Noah RETURNS to earth FROM THE HEAVENS.

Just omit it.
...as you continue to do.

Are you actually aware that you need Noah and Lot removed post trib/ post judgement??

What is wrong with you? This is a serious question. There's something in your mind that causes you to misrepresent post-trib. Why do you do it? It's probably because you are using a different definition for the word "tribulation" than the rest of us. He, and those of us who agree with him about this, do NOT say that the rapture occurs after the tribulation/wrath that will occur when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs. Understand? But, you keep saying that's what we believe. You repeatedly misrepresent what we believe which reflects very poorly on you.

You are using a different definition for the word "tribulation" than post-tribs are. You are using it to refer to the wrath that will occur when Jesus returns. We are NOT post-trib/post-wrath in terms of claiming that the rapture occurs after Christ's wrath comes down, we are post-trib with the understanding that the tribulation refers to persecution and high levels of persecution, deception, apostasy and wickedness and such that Jesus talked about in the Olivet Discourse and that Paul talked about in passages like Thess 2:3-12. Jesus will return to put an end to all of that and we will be caught up to Him at that point. And then His wrath will come down on His enemies. You try to say that we believe His wrath comes before the rapture, but that is NOT what we believe. So, stop misrepresenting our view.

The Noah and Lot thingy needs to be off limits to you guys.

LOL. What does this even mean?

Either bring all the facts or just admit you can't.

Says the guy who never presents any coherent arguments using scripture and just delivers a bunch of incoherent one liners.

Maybe use a shoulder shrug emogi for brevity.
Mat 24:38 must be a huge disappointment to that doctrine.
Huge.
Just no honest way around it.

Not at all. If you would address what we actually believe that would be very helpful. Instead, you spend all your time arguing with a strawman.

 

[The Light]

Stop avoiding the obvious!

1. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
2. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
3. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

It seems like you know what we know: this is an extra-biblical theory invented by man that has been foisted on the inspired text.

Always cries of avoiding.

Both of you guys post so much I don't have time to address everything. But if I miss any post that you really want addressed just repost. Quit crying.

I'm not sure why you would say this is extra Biblical. Is it because your Church doesn't teach the Old Testament? Maybe this will help

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Markets getting ready to close........gotta run.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

pre-trib is pre-fib out of the mouths of men

There does not exist a single pre-trib rapture in the OT, in the Gospel in the Apostles Letters neither in Revelation

Pre-WRATH Deliverance is 100% TRUTH in the OT, in the Gospel, in the Apostles Letters, in Revelation

They are FORCED to make things up as they desperately attempt to keep it alive

His version of pre-trib is even more ridiculous than the normal version of it because he believes in 5 raptures. I've never seen a more ridiculous interpretation of 1 Thess 4:14-17 than his. It very obviously portrays the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, but he claims that Jesus comes for the dead in Christ separately and then later comes for those who are alive and remain. What?! Insanity.

 

[WPM]

Always cries of avoiding.

Both of you guys post so much I don't have time to address everything. But if I miss any post that you really want addressed just repost. Quit crying.

I'm not sure why you would say this is extra Biblical. Is it because your Church doesn't teach the Old Testament? Maybe this will help

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Markets getting ready to close........gotta run.

More avoidance! That's all you do when your error is confronted!

 

[David in NJ]

His version of pre-trib is even more ridiculous than the normal version of it because he believes in 5 raptures. I've never seen a more ridiculous interpretation of 1 Thess 4:14-17 than his. It very obviously portrays the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, but he claims that Jesus comes for the dead in Christ separately and then later comes for those who are alive and remain. What?! Insanity.

only 5 !!!

There were TEN virgins in the parable - shouldn't there be TEN raptures!

 

[marks]

You try to say that we believe His wrath comes before the rapture, but that is NOT what we believe. So, stop misrepresenting our view.

Isn't "Pre-Wrath Rapture" the view you've just described?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

only 5 !!!

There were TEN virgins in the parable - shouldn't there be TEN raptures!

Don't give him any ideas! He might see this and run with it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isn't "Pre-Wrath Rapture" the view you've just described?

Much love!

I suppose you could call it that. We believe that Christ's wrath will come down on His enemies right after we are caught up to meet Him in the air. So, we see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 as one event that Paul also referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

But, he was saying we believe His wrath occurs first and then the rapture occurs. No, that's not the case.

 

[marks]

I suppose you could call it that.

I believe that's the commonly used name for the view you are expressing. It may make your discussions more streamline. FWIW.

Much love!

 

[marks]

only 5 !!!

There were TEN virgins in the parable - shouldn't there be TEN raptures!

This is why I've been undesirous to participate much in this thread, there are way too many instances of ridicule and derision, hardly the fruit of the Spirit. Not just you, mind you!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that's the commonly used name for the view you are expressing. It may make your discussions more streamline. FWIW.

Well, just like not everyone agrees with how to define the tribulation, not everyone agrees on how to define God's wrath. In my view, I'm referring specifically to the wrath that comes down on the actual day that Christ returns. Others might define it as wrath that occurs before that and up to His return.

There is no consensus on these things, so the confusion will continue unless we all agree on the same definitions for the terms we use. But, that will never happen. I personally differentiate between the tribulation and God's wrath, as I think most people do. So, from my perspective, I am both post-trib and pre-wrath. But, unfortunately, those terms alone don't make it entirely clear as to what I believe because not everyone defines the tribulation and God's wrath the same way. It's just something we have to deal with in these discussions. Which is why we should try to be as specific as possible when explaining what we believe in order to avoid confusion. And people like rebuilder 454 are clearly very confused as to what post-tribs actually believe because he doesn't differentiate between tribulation for believers and wrath for unbelievers.

 

[marks]

Well, just like not everyone agrees with how to define the tribulation, not everyone agrees on how to define God's wrath. In my view, I'm referring specifically to the wrath that comes down on the actual day that Christ returns. Others might define it as wrath that occurs before that and up to His return.

That's true. However, there are a handful of fairly well established views, that I think most of us fall into the broad outlines. I'm pre-trib, but not exactly as some other pre-tribbers. But I identify as pre-trib to let people know the basics of what I think. Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath distinguish between "at the very end" and "after the trib but before the wrath". It's just a shorthand.

Frankly, I'm surprised that having studied the Rapture, that you haven't run across this before. In my rapture studies, I've made sure to examine all the different major views. I was briefly Pre-Wrath myself, at least very seriously considering it, but I kept running into the same issues as with other non-pretrib views. To many Scriptures thrown into conflict, unless one holds Pre-Trib.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's true. However, there are a handful of fairly well established views, that I think most of us fall into the broad outlines. I'm pre-trib, but not exactly as some other pre-tribbers.

But, how do you define the tribulation? Some define it only as God's wrath. Others define it as persecution and temptation and such that believers experience. Others would define it as both.

But I identify as pre-trib to let people know the basics of what I think. Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath distinguish between "at the very end" and "after the trib but before the wrath". It's just a shorthand.

Yes, but this doesn't address the fact that not everyone defines the trib and wrath the same. So, these labels alone don't necessarily let people know what you believe, unfortunately. You can see how much rebuilder 454 misrepresents the post-trib view, right? It's because he's using a different definition for the tribulation than the post-tribs he's talking to.

Frankly, I'm surprised that having studied the Rapture, that you haven't run across this before.

Across what? The confusion over these labels and terms? Oh, I've run into this a number of times and it's a bit frustrating to deal with because of how it results in my view being misrepresented.

In my rapture studies, I've made sure to examine all the different major views.

Who says I haven't? It seems like you're making a bunch of assumptions here.

I was briefly Pre-Wrath myself, at least very seriously considering it, but I kept running into the same issues as with other non-pretrib views. To many Scriptures thrown into conflict, unless one holds Pre-Trib.

How do you define the wrath in pre-wrath? How do you define the trib in pre-trib? It's like you didn't even read anything I said. You're acting like everyone agrees on the definitions of these terms even after I talked about how there is no consensus on that.

 

[David in NJ]

This is why I've been undesirous to participate much in this thread, there are way too many instances of ridicule and derision, hardly the fruit of the Spirit. Not just you, mind you!

Much love!

@marks - Yesterday, and today, i was walking around the house praising God for you my Brother in Christ.

Member @The Light and myself have a good relationship! i pray for him as well since WE are all SAVED by One LORD and One Spirit.

i AGREE with you Marks that we should not be name calling or slandering.

If we get to know one another and AFIRM one another in CHRIST, then we can have a little humor together.

Brother @The Light believes the 5 wise virgins represent 5 separate raptures = which is funny because it is nowhere in Scripture!!!

 

[David in NJ]

This is why I've been undesirous to participate much in this thread, there are way too many instances of ridicule and derision, hardly the fruit of the Spirit. Not just you, mind you!

Much love!

Also, i do not know where you live but if you are ever in NJ, lets get together for coffee/lunch and true fellowship/prayer/rejoicing.
This includes @The Light as well

 

[marks]

@marks - Yesterday, and today, i was walking around the house praising God for you my Brother in Christ.

Member @The Light and myself have a good relationship! i pray for him as well since WE are all SAVED by One LORD and One Spirit.

i AGREE with you Marks that we should not be name calling or slandering.

If we get to know one another and AFIRM one another in CHRIST, then we can have a little humor together.

Brother @The Light believes the 5 wise virgins represent 5 separate raptures = which is funny because it is nowhere in Scripture!!!

I'm just telling you what I see. I've participated very actively in internet Christian forums since the 90's, so I've been around the block a bit. Maybe this is all OK with some, I'm not into it.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I'm just telling you what I see. I've participated very actively in internet Christian forums since the 90's, so I've been around the block a bit. Maybe this is all OK with some, I'm not into it.

Much love!

i invite you into the TRUTH of the Holy Scripture that cannot lie

Do you know what the parameters that God firmly and irrevocably established with His word for us?

 

[marks]

i invite you into the TRUTH of the Holy Scripture that cannot lie

Do you see how condescending that is?

Much love, and be blessed!

 

[David in NJ]

Do you see how condescending that is?

Much love, and be blessed!

To be invited in true fellowship in searching the scriptures of Truth should never sound condescending to anyone!!!

If you said the SAME to me i would be like - Let's GO!

If you can SEE from these words of mine, you are being UPlifted in thanks to our FATHER, who is in Heaven watching & listening.

Fresh ground coffee from organic whole beans at my house tomorrow morning - be there if you can!

SHALOM in Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach

 

[The Light]

Brother @The Light believes the 5 wise virgins represent 5 separate raptures = which is funny because it is nowhere in Scripture!!!

No sir. I believe the 5 wise virgins are those that are watching and ready for the coming of the Lord as we have been instructed.

The 5 foolish virgins however are those that think the Lord delays His coming and who begin to smite his fellow servants.

I think it's pretty easy to figure out who is who.